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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
Those 18's would be good for your 24's as surrounds ... or at least some in ceiling atmos speakers
I knew I liked you

I am acutally pondering surrounds now, but wondering if a different choice would be better for dispersion purposes. Not sure, but I guess I'll have to complete the layout and work on possible placements based on the wg characteristics vs something like the single 8
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
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I am acutally pondering surrounds now, but wondering if a different choice would be better for dispersion purposes. Not sure, but I guess I'll have to complete the layout and work on possible placements based on the wg characteristics vs something like the single 8
It's all about angles and listening distance. Ideally, a wave guide is better. But if you are too close, then something else probably makes more sense. Small spaces are always acoustically challenging. How big is the space? How far from the back and side surrounds?

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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
I knew I liked you

I am acutally pondering surrounds now, but wondering if a different choice would be better for dispersion purposes. Not sure, but I guess I'll have to complete the layout and work on possible placements based on the wg characteristics vs something like the single 8
I was in the same boat ... coaxial or wg for surround ... went with wg: 2 cinema 88 specials built and 2 more on the way ...

might do coaxial for atmos if/when that happens

have fun experimenting!
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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
I was in the same boat ... coaxial or wg for surround ... went with wg: 2 cinema 88 specials built and 2 more on the way ...

might do coaxial for atmos if/when that happens

have fun experimenting!
I like your choices

Depending on ceiling height and width/depth of the room coax might make sense. A lot of rooms and basement theaters have low ceilings, which means the distance from overhead to your ears isn't great. You would not want a big waveguide pointed at your ears from a super short distance, they need a little room to stretch their legs. The problem with the coax is less control, which means treatment strategy might change to accommodate the speaker. Everything has it's drawbacks and benefits.

Cinema 88 for surrounds is just ballsy... big balls there. That's already overkill. I have Fusion 8's so I can only imagine that the 88 Special does. Louder, double drivers, bigger waveguide and tweeter. I LIKE IT.

Mind if I ask what you think of the 88? Compared to other stuff?

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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Mind if I ask what you think of the 88? Compared to other stuff?


The 88s are very impressive. Super wide sweet spot for L & R duty. Detail and dynamics are effortless. Definitely need subs with them. soundstage and imaging were quite nice. after buying 2, I bought 2 more ...

I did a few test runs with the two 88's I have as surrounds for in a 5.1 config (SH50s were up front) ... i'm excited
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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
The 88s are very impressive. Super wide sweet spot for L & R duty. Detail and dynamics are effortless. Definitely need subs with them. soundstage and imaging were quite nice. after buying 2, I bought 2 more ...

I did a few test runs with the two 88's I have as surrounds for in a 5.1 config (SH50s were up front) ... i'm excited
So whats in this pic?

Is that a SH50 in the middle and SM95's L/R?

Cant quite tell. Also the center speaker on the ground reminded me of my old El Whappo cabinet for my bass guitar.
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
So whats in this pic?

Is that a SH50 in the middle and SM95's L/R?

Cant quite tell. Also the center speaker on the ground reminded me of my old El Whappo cabinet for my bass guitar.
2 88 specials
3 SH50s (one in the middle is on top of a mini fridge)
1 SVS 16-46 pc+

all arranged temporarily during construction ... gotta have something to listen to while working and after working to relax

I gotta finish this space so I can have chop bring down his beasts

Last edited by klipsch; Today at 09:02 AM. Reason: edit: round cylinder is an old SVS 16-46 pc+
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post #1598 of 1614 Unread Today, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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So you obviously like the 88s a good deal, that's awesome to hear. How do they "match" as surrounds with the Danleys....I'm always concerned with timbre, maybe more so than necessary. I know some will say it doesn't matter nearly as much for surrounds, and while that's very true, I always get hung up on full matching...even though I've heard so many systems that don't and they sound wonderfull

Have you played around with them at different distances from the listener in surround positions??
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Before this gets too far off track again I recommend building it with the two td15m's. The crossover is done it's pretty much load a file into the minidsp match amp gains and go. Minimal new work. I also saw it asked and the crossover between woofers and 4594 mid is roughly 380hz on that final revision.
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
So you obviously like the 88s a good deal, that's awesome to hear. How do they "match" as surrounds with the Danleys....I'm always concerned with timbre, maybe more so than necessary. I know some will say it doesn't matter nearly as much for surrounds, and while that's very true, I always get hung up on full matching...even though I've heard so many systems that don't and they sound wonderfull

Have you played around with them at different distances from the listener in surround positions??
I believe there was a white paper written by Dr Floyd O'Toole on timbre ... I'll have to search for it ... basically, sound is completely changed based on the "directionality" of the sound coming to your ears (it is one of the differences we use as humans to recognize spatial awareness of sound: like realizing that noise was at your back right and not just at your back or right) ... so even when you have completely matched speakers, the surrounds won't be "matched" to your ears since the sound arriving at your ears is from a completely different direction via the surround speakers versus your front three speakers ...

bottomline: timbre becomes a non-issue for surrounds (perhaps a future GTG blind test ... figure out which are timbre matched surrounds and which are not)

edit: it is either this link
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20141223/5163.pdf
or this one
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20141223/6079.pdf


I was not distracted by the surround noises or thought that there was a "color" or some other artifact that was differentiating from the Danley's to the 88s in surround duty in my construction zone. One of the good things about the 88's is that their sensitivity is high and keeps up with the Danley's which means very little trim required on the pre/pro/receiver

Last edited by klipsch; Today at 10:14 AM. Reason: I think it is one of those two links
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post #1601 of 1614 Unread Today, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
Before this gets too far off track again I recommend building it with the two td15m's. The crossover is done it's pretty much load a file into the minidsp match amp gains and go. Minimal new work. I also saw it asked and the crossover between woofers and 4594 mid is roughly 380hz on that final revision.
That's the plan for sure Matt....I'm not deviating this time. I know others have talked/asked about other options too, but as I said in our pm this week...I'm sticking with this. I think the dual 15 version can be as good or better than anything we've heard and I'm resting my confidence in that and seeing it through to the end.

Forgot the xover had been that low...
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Nice to hear Klipsch...that makes them a nice contender for a pretty easy build and some $$$ savings on surrounds vs my original plan.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
Before this gets too far off track again I recommend building it with the two td15m's. The crossover is done it's pretty much load a file into the minidsp match amp gains and go. Minimal new work. I also saw it asked and the crossover between woofers and 4594 mid is roughly 380hz on that final revision.
sorry

back to the awesome regularly scheduled program ... 380hz is almost as low as the 215 JTRs (I believe they are 350hz) and well below the ~1000hz of the M2s ... what amps are being used for each part of the active network?
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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
Before this gets too far off track again I recommend building it with the two td15m's. The crossover is done it's pretty much load a file into the minidsp match amp gains and go. Minimal new work. I also saw it asked and the crossover between woofers and 4594 mid is roughly 380hz on that final revision.
sent ya a pm too bud

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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
sorry

back to the awesome regularly scheduled program ... 380hz is almost as low as the 215 JTRs (I believe they are 350hz) and well below the ~1000hz of the M2s ... what amps are being used for each part of the active network?
Not sure what Matt played with last, but I was using the Crown DSis originally...they were fine, the dsp was a bit limiting for what we wanted setting wise and such on the seosr. If I hadn't sold them, I'd just use them and defeat the internal dsp. Have to source new amps now
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Nice to hear Klipsch...that makes them a nice contender for a pretty easy build and some $$$ savings on surrounds vs my original plan.
wrong answer

maybe build some cinema 1010 specials with the 18" WG on top and two 10" below
(with the same BMS 4594 of course for timbre)
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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
wrong answer

maybe build some cinema 1010 specials with the 18" WG on top and two 10" below
(with the same BMS 4594 of course for timbre)
lol, I deserve that after my history

On a related note, the height speakers do give me concern. I am planning for ATMOS, no reason not to in my book at this point...with my ceiling heights, approx placement of overheads is going to be between 5 and 8 ft above the listeners, respectively in each row. The 88 should work fine there, and the surrounds and rears will also have a good bit of breathing room. ...but I digress, the front heights, one would think should match somewhat to the mains, no?? I mean, they certainly don't need even a fraction of the output cabability, but the timbre there should be close, no??
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Go for coax's for the overheads. I'd even suggest the same for surrounds if they are just as close.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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I would think you would want your heights/wides to be close in timbre ... build 6 of the front 3 ... 1 on top of the other

I've yet to hear atmos or any other "immersion audio" technology ... figuring we have a couple of years before the content and usability kicks in ... can you even run a 7.1.4 off of a pre/pro/receiver yet?

anyway ... I wouldn't worry about it too much other than running lots of speaker wire for future proofing ... 7.1 content is still on the up and up ... you'll be grinning plenty with these SEOSR's ... maybe try to enjoy them for a year at least before worrying about other "effect" speakers?
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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post

I've yet to hear atmos or any other "immersion audio" technology ... figuring we have a couple of years before the content and usability kicks in ... can you even run a 7.1.4 off of a pre/pro/receiver yet?
Yes. Several current products do a full 7.1.4 layout.

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Go for coax's for the overheads. I'd even suggest the same for surrounds if they are just as close.
I've got no issue with that if it proves to be the best solution...you think so based on listener distances huh?

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I would think you would want your heights/wides to be close in timbre ... build 6 of the front 3 ... 1 on top of the other

I've yet to hear atmos or any other "immersion audio" technology ... figuring we have a couple of years before the content and usability kicks in ... can you even run a 7.1.4 off of a pre/pro/receiver yet?

anyway ... I wouldn't worry about it too much other than running lots of speaker wire for future proofing ... 7.1 content is still on the up and up ... you'll be grinning plenty with these SEOSR's ... maybe try to enjoy them for a year at least before worrying about other "effect" speakers?
I will certianly enjoy them for a while. Building six of them is an idea, but not sure. They are four feet tall each, so they'd basically sit on top of the mains..not optimal really. I could do a single woofer version and angle it off the ceiling behind the screen wall. That might be a good solution...it just means an extra few thousand in components...a single woofer version would run me like $1000 each....a bargain when you consider a single8 costs that. I have wised up though and I would do anything like this for surrounds...just not a good use of resources to me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
I believe there was a white paper written by Dr Floyd O'Toole on timbre ... I'll have to search for it ... basically, sound is completely changed based on the "directionality" of the sound coming to your ears (it is one of the differences we use as humans to recognize spatial awareness of sound: like realizing that noise was at your back right and not just at your back or right) ... so even when you have completely matched speakers, the surrounds won't be "matched" to your ears since the sound arriving at your ears is from a completely different direction via the surround speakers versus your front three speakers ...

bottomline: timbre becomes a non-issue for surrounds (perhaps a future GTG blind test ... figure out which are timbre matched surrounds and which are not)

edit: it is either this link
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20141223/5163.pdf
or this one
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20141223/6079.pdf


I was not distracted by the surround noises or thought that there was a "color" or some other artifact that was differentiating from the Danley's to the 88s in surround duty in my construction zone. One of the good things about the 88's is that their sensitivity is high and keeps up with the Danley's which means very little trim required on the pre/pro/receiver
Strong post. I had read this many times. Timbre matching isn't that important
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
I've got no issue with that if it proves to be the best solution...you think so based on listener distances huh?



I will certianly enjoy them for a while. Building six of them is an idea, but not sure. They are four feet tall each, so they'd basically sit on top of the mains..not optimal really. I could do a single woofer version and angle it off the ceiling behind the screen wall. That might be a good solution...it just means an extra few thousand in components...a single woofer version would run me like $1000 each....a bargain when you consider a single8 costs that. I have wised up though and I would do anything like this for surrounds...just not a good use of resources to me.
You would do or you wouldn't do?
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You would do or you wouldn't do?
That was a slip from my subconcious

Honestly, if I still had all the seos24s I had....I'd do it

Hopefully I'll be able to get my hands on a few more somehow over the next week or so
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That was a slip from my subconcious

Honestly, if I still had all the seos24s I had....I'd do it

Hopefully I'll be able to get my hands on a few more somehow over the next week or so
I'll be in Ohio soon ... If I come across any big waveguides in this diysoundgroup vicinity, I'll snag em
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