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post #1621 of 1832 Old 12-29-2014, 09:33 PM
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"You cannot timbre match surrounds to the fronts."
-Dennis Erskin

"Timbre matching of the surround to the L,C.R (front) channels. In my view, this is a dubious feature. Sounds arriving from the sides, or from random incidences will have timbres that differ from sounds arriving from the front because of the head and external ears - see HRTF explanation, p. 16. It is nature at work, and it needs no correction."
"In multichannel surround sound systems, a persistent problem is the mismatch in the timbral signatures of the various loudspeakers. Some of this may be caused by real differences between the loudspeakers but, even if they are identical devices, there will be differences attributable to different positions in the room."
Dr. Floyde Toole
Direction and Space – the Final Frontiers

don't shoot the messenger and don't knock it until you've done a double blind test
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post #1622 of 1832 Old 12-30-2014, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post
I agree with both points.
1. The links don't work.
2. The argument that frequency or power response need not match between speakers in a surround system does not seem logical.


I've read Toole's book. It's excellent. It should almost be "required reading" for AVS. I won't claim to have memorized all the content, but I certainly don't recall anything that would lead me to a conclusion like the one being presented. If we could be pointed toward a reference that would certainly help. I'll go refresh my understanding on whichever data is relevant.
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Originally Posted by a|F View Post
Select multi channel stereo and explain to me how timbre matching doesn't matter. My tempests and jbl 8340 are not a match and it is annoyingly obvious. Control the things you can and work around the rest.
Right... I think the confusion is this... since we hear things differently as it pans around us, some people may mistakenly think that the 'source' of those sounds doesn't have to be timbre matched.. which doesn't make sense to me... because whatever 'source that is panning around in real life' is also exactly timbre matched...

I suppose ambient sound won't matter as much as 'voices' for instance... we can recognize voices very well... imagine if my sister was talking to me and walking to the back of me.. Even as her 'voice's timbre' changes, i can recognize her because the 'changes' are expected... but if suddenly when she's behind me, my 'other sister' continue to talk and she has a different timbre.. i bet i'll instantly recognize it's a different voice... therefore, in my own logical thought experiment, i can conclude that timbre matching is vital...

Of course, 'how much different from speaker to speaker' also affect the overall effect... if other things are being considered.. for instance budget, then perhaps getting a cheaper surround speaker but closer matched might be a good option... There's no hard rules on this as different people have different budgets and rooms and circumstances...
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post #1623 of 1832 Old 12-30-2014, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
"You cannot timbre match surrounds to the fronts."
-Dennis Erskin

"Timbre matching of the surround to the L,C.R (front) channels. In my view, this is a dubious feature. Sounds arriving from the sides, or from random incidences will have timbres that differ from sounds arriving from the front because of the head and external ears - see HRTF explanation, p. 16. It is nature at work, and it needs no correction."
"In multichannel surround sound systems, a persistent problem is the mismatch in the timbral signatures of the various loudspeakers. Some of this may be caused by real differences between the loudspeakers but, even if they are identical devices, there will be differences attributable to different positions in the room."
Dr. Floyde Toole
Direction and Space – the Final Frontiers

don't shoot the messenger and don't knock it until you've done a double blind test
Actually he's saying one of the persistent problem is 'mismatched timbral signatures of various loudspeakers'

I believe what he's saying is this:

- You don't want to 're-create' the exact timbral signature of the sound 'arriving' at your listening position.
- He's not saying the 'speakers' should not be timbre matched.
- He's saying that even when speakers are timbre matched, the sound arriving from different locations will be different in terms of their timbral signatures, which is OK because this is natural....
- What's un-natural is to try to 'timbre match' the arriving sound to exactly how it sounds from the front...
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post #1624 of 1832 Old 12-30-2014, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Muhahahahahaa....success, pics to follow soon

Lots of good discussion above, thanks for the contributions. I have always been a part of the camp that if possible, all should match. I've read some of the pieces and my interpretation is that the characteristics will be different coming from different places, however, if you hear my voice front and center , then right then rear, etc. the voice characteristics should be the same and the difference will come from the presentation of the sound, relative to the "set/stage" it's being presented on. I know this is basically the same as what is said above and probably common sense...just spewing my thoughts. How much the differences can be perceived is up for debate and even different from user to user of course. I will most certainly experiment with some close matches first and then decide what I require, more than likely.

I will probably have enough gear to go all the same if I decide too. The cost does mount up though..it will be roughly double, or a bit more than double per speaker to build single woofer seos24 4594 combos vs coax, etc. I will match the heights and widths for sure though.
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post #1625 of 1832 Old 12-30-2014, 08:41 AM
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looking for to the pictures ... do any frequency sweeps/plots on/off axis as well?
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post #1626 of 1832 Old 12-30-2014, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
looking for to the pictures ... do any frequency sweeps/plots on/off axis as well?
lol, sorry, I just meant I sourced some parts and I'd have those pics.
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post #1627 of 1832 Old 12-30-2014, 05:36 PM
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So CHOPSHOP1 tell me more about your plan for audio ecstasy....

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #1628 of 1832 Old 12-30-2014, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
lol, sorry, I just meant I sourced some parts and I'd have those pics.
That's just wrong... I was expecting some speaker pron...

Happy New Year sir
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post #1629 of 1832 Old 12-31-2014, 07:51 AM
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Chop, I read you were wanting 4ohm woofers. If you're going active on the bottom, why does that matter?
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post #1630 of 1832 Old 12-31-2014, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post
Chop, I read you were wanting 4ohm woofers. If you're going active on the bottom, why does that matter?
Going active all the way through.. I was just thinking I'd go 4ohm based on the single woofer version for heights//widths etc. Moar power
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post #1631 of 1832 Old 12-31-2014, 08:20 AM
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Active > passive

100% of the time.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #1632 of 1832 Old 12-31-2014, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
Going active all the way through.. I was just thinking I'd go 4ohm based on the single woofer version for heights//widths etc. Moar power
You decide on amps yet? I think Matt was using the Behringer A500 during testing. Not sure if that was for the mid bass or highs.
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post #1633 of 1832 Old 12-31-2014, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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You decide on amps yet? I think Matt was using the Behringer A500 during testing. Not sure if that was for the mid bass or highs.
I haven't honestly. I have enough stuff laying around to test coax's for surrounds, the mains, heights, etc. I figured I'll do that before I determine exactly how many channels/how much power I really need. The mains I know, but the rest will be a bit of an experiment.
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post #1634 of 1832 Old 12-31-2014, 10:21 AM
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your brain knows the freak'n transfer function of your head... :-)
...and how to adjust for it.


have someone talk to you while walking around a room. in front. to the side. near a wall. in the center of the room.


they still sound like...them!


even though...a meter will record completely different transfer and timing functions. so different in fact that if one were to visually examine the response going into the ear canals of a binaural recording dummy head, nobody would think that it would be possible for the sounds to be even close.
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post #1635 of 1832 Old 03-16-2015, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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We're baaaaaaaacckkkk! Thinking of keeping it simple here...the dual TD15M version with the seos24 and 4594 CD. Matt has that version pretty much tweaked out now and in addition, is planning on coming out to my place once they are set up and tweaking anything needed there. I can't believe I'm actually starting the HT build right now...after everything that went on, I never thought I'd have a place to put these . I think from an output standpoint, these will be far more than needed to reach well over referrence and have plenty of headroom still. The midbass should still rival anything that can be had...those 4 15s did kick somthin fierce though ...not going there again. The simplicity of the dual 15 makes it an easy choice. I've got the new waveguides on the way, 6-8 weeks on the woofers and waiting to hear back on the CDS
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post #1636 of 1832 Old 03-16-2015, 12:00 PM
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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #1637 of 1832 Old 03-16-2015, 12:17 PM
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Good to hear, Chop!

IIRC several people were interested in doing another BMS group buy ...a couple years ago Anyone still interested? I'm sure I could find a use for a couple 4594's
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post #1638 of 1832 Old 03-16-2015, 12:23 PM
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Welcome back to sanity!

I decided to use a single 18" + SEOS 24" for the Center. Sticking to dual 18" for L+R. Will be crazy big! To big to put comfortably behind the screen as Center.
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post #1639 of 1832 Old 03-16-2015, 02:45 PM
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Awesome man great to hear!! Hope the build goes as smooth as possible.

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GO MANCHESTER UNITED!!
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post #1640 of 1832 Old 03-16-2015, 02:50 PM
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I think I remember seeing Jack post some where about a GB occurring if we could sell 10 coax's or something like that.
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post #1641 of 1832 Old 03-16-2015, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Talked with Jack earlier today...the only issue is one shipping location. Even without a group buy, jack does give good deals
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post #1642 of 1832 Old 03-18-2015, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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4594s on the way!!
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post #1643 of 1832 Old 03-18-2015, 07:13 PM
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Good luck and have fun with the re arrival
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post #1644 of 1832 Old 03-20-2015, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Good luck and have fun with the re arrival
Hahaha...thanks! It's comical, I was talking with Beast the other day and he was like, "so you basically bought everything you sold huh?" I have all the parts ordered now so I'll be in good shape. The 4594s should be here Monday, the waveguides not too far behind, but the TDs will be 6 weeks...oh well, I have lots of work to do on the theater. I was hoping they'd show up a little quicker so that I could finish up the SEOSR while the foundation goes in and site work is done. Once that's done, I'm the framer, roofer, insulator, electrician, ...you get the idea. I have help from friends/family in each trade that do that respective trade for a living, but the lions' share will fall on me.

I am still trying to decide on subs again for this one. I have sort of gotten past the idea of the SI24 again. It's a rediculously capable driver, but my preferrence is taking me in another direction I think. I have been in conversation with some driver manufacturers about some new custom pieces though, which make work out right on time. I would just load the room up with SI HT18s, but to put enough in 9000ft3 to reach the levels I want and have any headroom, they'd basically become the decor of the room
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post #1645 of 1832 Old 03-20-2015, 07:33 AM
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Sounds like you have some fun times ahead!

I did my first test with a quasi sealed room (clipped, channel, GG'd, 1.75" thick doors) ... I can't compare it to what it would be without any of the soundproofing stuff, but I am quite happy (so was the wife) as I had "Through the Never" at 95 A weighted average SPL and 120ish C weighted SPL hits and the upstairs bedrooms had no noticeable noise other than some small rumbles. I'll never listen to 95 A weighted average SPL (I like having hearing) so hopefully the results stay consistent as I continue the construction ... where is your theater space? Separated from the house?


There is absolutely nothing wrong with decorating a theater with lots of 18" drivers. You thinking of going ported instead of sealed with the new custom drivers?

9000ft3 is a very nice space! I'm still working on mine, but it is only about 2500ft3 (16*21*7.5).

You planning on several rows of seats with that much space?
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post #1646 of 1832 Old 03-20-2015, 09:10 AM
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I'd use (8) sealed for extension and smoothing on the side walls. You could easily hide the depth of a column with deeper wainscoting and fabric frames and use the columns as the enclosure.

Then some low tuned tapped horns for the heavy lifting. Think dts10 or Ghorn style. Something with a 15hz corner so you aren't losing the extension but you are gaining that amazing headroom and output. There is a couple cool dual 12" tapped horn designs, and some decent 18" and 15" ones too.

I know from talking witb Jacob and Nick they are willing to do custom drivers. You can't use any woofer in a horn, you need it just the right blend. Too much motor it's peaky response, too little and it's bad results. Your typical competition sub has more than enough motor but the suspension is too stiff and they go clank when you pound them. The typical Ht sub is ok except it doesn't have the right motor. lilMike has a formula for the secret sauce woofer.

Horns are cool not just because they are cleanest and loudest but because not everyone has them. Something cool about excessive unobtanium.
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post #1647 of 1832 Old 03-20-2015, 09:12 AM
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My area is 8000 square feet btw. I feel your pain. You'll never get there with sealed subs alone.
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post #1648 of 1832 Old 03-20-2015, 09:37 AM
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How's blending sealed and ported subs work?

Most on this forum (from what I remember reading) say it is a nightmare

Horned subs are nice, but take up a lot of real estate ... good thing you guys have so much square footage
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post #1649 of 1832 Old 03-20-2015, 09:41 AM
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you guys have 10 feet ceilings or are your rooms like ~25 x ~40 x ~8?

I am assuming these rooms are not open to other areas, but are fully dedicated, closed off theater spaces right?
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post #1650 of 1832 Old 03-20-2015, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
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My area is 8000 square feet btw. I feel your pain. You'll never get there with sealed subs alone.
Man, that's one heck of a big garage you're building.

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