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post #1711 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Use settings inside the amp. I am looking at buying a pair of QSC PLD4.2 towards the end of this year for my setup. Will be enough power for me and maybe your setup also. Just a thought. Cost about 1000 greens each. Not sure what your budget is.

I was also looking at the Crown DSi Drive Core Analog amps for my setup. BUT for me the QSC will work best.
I have been looking at the QSC lines as well, as I know Erskine specs those a lot. Trouble is that most of the lines have way too much power per channel for the CDs'. Going full active on them, I need to try to stay between 125w and 200w per section, for a total of 250-400 for the cd in total. They are just so efficient I'm worried about going too crazy with power. At 118db sens...things could get out of hand quickly, and the TD15M are "only" 98db...I'd have to feed the woofers (in pairs) 32watts each to get to the same levels as the cd with 1 watt..I mean I know I can pad it down but damn
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post #1712 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 06:16 AM
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DCA 1824 has a little less wattage. 250watts@ 4ohms The 4.2 is only 400watts @ 4ohms. And that can be reduced internally.
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post #1713 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
DCA 1824 has a little less wattage. 250watts@ 4ohms The 4.2 is only 400watts @ 4ohms. And that can be reduced internally.
You're right...the more I look at it, the more options I do really have. I could run 8 of the PLD4.2 amps and hit all the cds, woofers and surrounds and it's acutally not that bad...$10,400 at full retail..likely 8500-9k street. How do the PLD allow you to reduce power internally?? That would work out great.

I actually ran a bunch of options for comparo
1. QSC DCA series a mix of the 1222 and 1622 to get 600w to each woofer, 215 to each section of the cd and 350/ch to surrounds...shakes out as second to least expensive
2. The PLD option above, shakes our to the cheapest option and puts 700each to woofers, 400/ch to surrounds and then 400w reduced however to each cd channel
3.QSC CX series 90w/ch of cd, 250w/ch surrounds and 700w per woofer. similar pricing to DCA option
4.Lab Gruppen C series, highest cost option....onlly by a few hundred $$....125w per section to coax, 250w/ch to surrounds and 700w per woofer in mains. Most ideal power ratios
5. Lab G e series...mid tier as far as pricing goes, supper efficient, but concerns with delivering full power under pushed instances. A little high in the CD power, but not sure they'd provide full rated power...would seem to be more of a sliding scale down as the amps were pushed.
6.Wyred 4 Sound...threw these in for grins just to see compared to pro amps...middle priced as well, compared to the rest..within a grand of the cheapes as a package and also more ideal power ratings per section...150/ch for cd sections, 220/ch for surrounds and 460/woofer in mains.

I just figured it smart to compare a few, highly regarded amps as Mark said instead of just considering price of the Crown Dsi. The QSC PLD is the cheapest option and has what looks to be nice on board dsp for the active mains....I'd have to confirm with Matt that it would meet our needs. The lab c series is my second choice right now (though I'm open to suggestions) and then Trinnov for active mains, or Marantz etc and a separate dsp unit for the mains.

Trying to really think this through this time and buy the right gear, one time
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post #1714 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been reading more and more..have to say I really like the "FAST" tech on the PLD amps too....no wasting of channels or power. Being configurable to any need, 1,2 3 or 4 channels, and using all of the power is a nice feature.
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post #1715 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
I've been reading more and more..have to say I really like the "FAST" tech on the PLD amps too....no wasting of channels or power. Being configurable to any need, 1,2 3 or 4 channels, and using all of the power is a nice feature.
emailed you. These do look cool. I never really looked at them before.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #1716 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
I've been reading more and more..have to say I really like the "FAST" tech on the PLD amps too....no wasting of channels or power. Being configurable to any need, 1,2 3 or 4 channels, and using all of the power is a nice feature.
Chop,

Have you looked at the Powersoft M series with DSP?

As a point of reference, the same amps is used by Procella Audio
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post #1717 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 11:13 AM
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Don't forget fellas that using a minDSP or amplifiers with DSP built into them you are adding yet another stage of A/D and D/A to your signal path. Conversions are not audible at subwoofer frequencies but often are in every other band.

Just my 2 cents worth. Discount at will.
____________
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post #1718 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awedio View Post
Chop,

Have you looked at the Powersoft M series with DSP?

As a point of reference, the same amps is used by Procella Audio
I did, they are just so much more expensive.

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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
Don't forget fellas that using a minDSP or amplifiers with DSP built into them you are adding yet another stage of A/D and D/A to your signal path. Conversions are not audible at subwoofer frequencies but often are in every other band.

Just my 2 cents worth. Discount at will.


____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
absolutely...I ultimately like the idea of trinnov and using it for everything, and maybe the Lab C series amps for power, just curious how using the PLD or similar from QSC will compare. If the converstions were audible, it would be a big waster of money on those qsc amps though. It will no doubt require more research and most likely some sort of testing for me. I would think that it would have been evident in testing and design phase with the mini if it were going to be offensive, but one never knows I guess. I am far from experienced enough to say for sure how that will shake out.

I'm waiting on a call from Curt now to see what exact prices my options fall at now for Trinnov....Shawn has already recommened the QSC stand alone dsp units in connection, as an all ternative to the Trinnov if that gets ruled out. I can do well enough on the Lab and QSC that cost of either is attractive to me. If I can be shown how the dsp amps, or the non dsp amps in conjunction with a stand alone qsc unit can amze me, I'd buy in. at $12k or so a pair for the qsc dsp, another 8k in amps and a few thousand for the 8802 or something like that, it would come in as a whole, about $15k cheaper than an altitude. Now if I can get the right price on magnitude and eliminate the $12k qsc dsp in favor of $15 or so for the Trinnov, I get the best of both worlds. I'm still curious when Mark and LTD replied, what they would be considering for use as active xovers/dsp in their suggestion to go Marantz prepro or the like and just get the system running.
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post #1719 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 01:08 PM
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ChopShop,

Please bring me up to speed as to your requirements. How many channels need active crossovers and are they to be 2 way or 3 way??

As to multiple surrounds, are you planning on feeding those on each side from a common channel or are you looking to feed/ EQ each one? How many surround loudspeakers per side?
_____________
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post #1720 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 01:13 PM
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I think the best solution is one where you use most of what you already have to get the system up and running with minimal effort and cost. Then if the results are not found to be satisfactory, sell those lower cost components at a slight loss (think of it as renting them to try out for a while) and upgrade to the more advanced setup.

I don't know exactly how many of the Crown DSi 1000 amps you have currently but if enough to run the system then try getting it going before you start purchasing other amps. They have enough power to get the mains to silly levels (130dB+) so I would not worry about that.


Now about the DSP, I see two quick easy and inexpensive options to get the mains going.
1: A couple of 4x10's, plenty of voltage headroom and at $1000 for a pair you have you can have the mains up and running without any redesign of the DSP settings and you have and extra input and 4-5 extra outputs to spare which can be used to run subwoofer EQ/delays. Audibility of noise is unknown at this point, but if it comes down to it I can make up a little resistive padding network for the HF driver to cut that down.

2: Use the built in DSP on the Crown DSi amps. No extra cost, no extra A/D/A conversion in the signal path from the miniDSP. Now I know they did not have the exact filter functions to match what I had used in the miniDSP but I am sure all it would take are some slight adjustments to get the transfer functions to match up. They have the DSP power to run them it just needs a little extra tinkering to get things going, something we did not have enough time to do at Andrews with the first iteration.
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post #1721 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Ahhh you guys are killing me Now I'm looking hard at the Powersoft M series too!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
ChopShop,

Please bring me up to speed as to your requirements. How many channels need active crossovers and are they to be 2 way or 3 way??

As to multiple surrounds, are you planning on feeding those on each side from a common channel or are you looking to feed/ EQ each one? How many surround loudspeakers per side?
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Thanks for the reply Carl. I'm looking at basically a 3 way lcr. active xover from mid to high on the 4594 coax and then the dual woofers handling the same range..60 or 80hz to 400 or so where they hand off to the mf section of the coax.

The plan right now, as discusse dwith Erskine Group, is for 6 total sides, 6 overheads and 2 rears. Basically, I want to be able to give each row it's relative surround experience when called for, but also use the multiple sets to "keep the sound moving on it's path"...?? not sure if that makes sense....basically to beneift say one listener when called for with regard to movement of sound. I believe that's where the trinnov will benefit, even against the atmos enabled pre pros.....again, my knowledge is limited on this so I'm learning as I go with regard to the surrounds and the function in this situation
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post #1722 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
I did, they are just so much more expensive.
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Ahhh you guys are killing me Now I'm looking hard at the Powersoft M series too!!!
I thought you just said Powersoft M series was too expensive????
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post #1723 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 01:52 PM
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Chop,

If it were me I would use a total of 3 channels, one each for the sides and another for all of the overheads. In my experience nothing audible is gained by taking it any further. Commercial theaters are done that way. The few times that I tried to be more granular in my approach I always got a headache and ended up simplifying it.
____________
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
Ahhh you guys are killing me Now I'm looking hard at the Powersoft M series too!!!
Chop,

Imagine this M50Q bangin on your dual TD15M, 2.5KW per 15 all from a 1U box....

Life is good..
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post #1725 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by awedio View Post
I thought you just said Powersoft M series was too expensive????
LOL, I did, but once again I thought slowly and spoke fast .... they're doable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
Chop,

If it were me I would use a total of 3 channels, one each for the sides and another for all of the overheads. In my experience nothing audible is gained by taking it any further. Commercial theaters are done that way. The few times that I tried to be more granular in my approach I always got a headache and ended up simplifying it.
____________
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Carl Huff
Appreciate the feedback. so 9 channels for the full gammut of 6 sides and six over head right?? I'm assuming you're saying three channels per row...
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post #1726 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 01:58 PM
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I thought you just said Powersoft M series was too expensive????
I'll take the blame for that. I have an amp hook up and each time he mentions an amp I email him the cost. And of coarse being the way he is he keeps stepping up... First was QSC then powersoft. He will take himself to the moon if you let him haha...

But I think there is some good suggestions so far so in enjoying the discussion. Whatever he chooses to do I'm confident it's going to kick all the asses it ever meets.
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post #1727 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awedio View Post
Chop,

Imagine this M50Q bangin on your dual TD15M, 2.5KW per 15 all from a 1U box....

Life is good..
That's overkill for even me In all reality, somewhere between 500w and 800w per woofer could work just fine. I always thought PS was the top of the heap, but wrote them off for price. I guess on looking further, they don't seem as expensive as I'd remembered. Even the M14 will put 700w a piece to the 15s...1400 per main, plus the 360 (which would of course have to be dialed back) to each coax section....jeeeeeezzzz. I never thought I'd say uncle...
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post #1729 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I'll take the blame for that. I have an amp hook up and each time he mentions an amp I email him the cost. And of coarse being the way he is he keeps stepping up... First was QSC then powersoft. He will take himself to the moon if you let him haha...

But I think there is some good suggestions so far so in enjoying the discussion. Whatever he chooses to do I'm confident it's going to kick all the asses it ever meets.
A$$ES we must kick......Much power we will need
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post #1730 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 02:03 PM
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I think with such high ceilings you should fly some subs in the top corners of the room.
Just because.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
That's overkill for even me In all reality, somewhere between 500w and 800w per woofer could work just fine. I always thought PS was the top of the heap, but wrote them off for price. I guess on looking further, they don't seem as expensive as I'd remembered. Even the M14 will put 700w a piece to the 15s...1400 per main, plus the 360 (which would of course have to be dialed back) to each coax section....jeeeeeezzzz. I never thought I'd say uncle...
For you, overkill
No such think, you know what they say in Texas...

Go BIG or go HOME..
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post #1732 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 02:07 PM
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Honestly you are past the territory of just kicking ass. You are entering into a whole new territory where asses don't just get kicked they get aniialated completely.
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post #1733 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 02:25 PM
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How much for the Powersoft amps?

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post #1734 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
Appreciate the feedback. so 9 channels for the full gammut of 6 sides and six over head right?? I'm assuming you're saying three channels per row...
Or even simpler as 3 channels total, one for Left Surrounds, another for Right Surrounds and one for all Top loudspeakers to get started. You can always add granularity once your ear becomes familiar with the nuances of the room. Remember that the surrounds and top channels are about adding a sense of space and ambiance to what is coming from the front of the room. I suggest that you approach this incrementally. In my experience the golden rule for success in these projects is to build a robust base platform (ie: the old 5.x solution) and then garnish with the magic of the new surround tech.

If your 5.x base is not robust your room overall will sound like poo. If you garnish with fancy surrounds on a pile a poo it's still poo, it's just a fancier pile.

Again this is my 2 cents worth. Discount at will.
___________
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post #1735 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 07:39 PM
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Chop, I would second Carl's comments ... I don't think you need separate channels for your multi-row side surrounds ... just stick with the 7.X.X you are going for ...sides are sides, rears are rears, front overheads are front overheads, rear overheads are rear overheads ... doesn't matter how many there are ...

I think you would just create a nightmare with the delay and such you are talking about adding ... your room is big, but not THAT big
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post #1736 of 1832 Old 03-23-2015, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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All seemingly valid points guys, thank you. I have been approaching this in this manner based on consulting with EG. I'll be honest, if they continue to recommend independent channels for each, I'll go that route because they will be committed to making it work correctly. I can always throttle back too. Why would EG be recommending this if it's really that much simpler as you guys are saying...wouldn't it make life easier on them too to take the approach suggested here? Just trying to grasp the whole thing
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post #1737 of 1832 Old 03-24-2015, 03:01 AM
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I am still questioning the need for such high dollar investments into these expensive amplifier setups, especially considering this is a home theater setup and not a dedicated two channel rig. I could see the need, or desire for $10k-$15k equipment setups for music only rigs, but for ht, I just do not see the necessity. Anyway, this is turning into a freaking awesome thread to read and be a part of. Good luck on getting everything together!
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post #1738 of 1832 Old 03-24-2015, 03:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks tip. This will double as my music room as well. Not sure yet what the listening position for 2 channel will be for beat result, but it will be set up for that as well. Over the last year or so I've found myself listening critically to much more music than I thought I ever would. Admittedly, this room will still see more movies and sports than anything though. My feeling is that amplifiers with very low noise, high reliability and of course optimal power are needed. I defer more to the more experienced folks I trust over myself just due to the fact that I haven't tested the range of equipment that may of you have. The sensitivity and revealing nature of these mains I think calls for a higher level of care to be sure performance is optimized. I sit pretty well in the camp that says amps from different manufacturers, if specs like power, noise etc are equal, will not be distinguishable. ...difficult part is which amps truly meet the specs and which dont....and then we jump into the issues of reliability and the fact that I don't want to have to touch the rack for years. All that said, I'm not entirely sure it's necessary but I'm so afraid of spending enough to buy a small house between the room construction and outfitting it, and leaving this issue to chance. Could be making it more difficult than it really is becauseof this fear
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post #1739 of 1832 Old 03-24-2015, 05:50 AM
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amp specs can be tough.
s/n is frequently just mentioned as a zinger such as >102db
then consumers run to amp with highest number.
s/n is more complex because of how it is specified and how it is measured.
s/n scales pretty well with power, but not always and not identically for all amps.
therefore direct comparability is lost.
that said, we can take a guess.
if the spec says "a weighted", subtract about 10db from the spec to compare to an "unweighted" s/n.
if the spec is for "full power" then make sure you adjust down for the power because as the signal level is increased, it will move further away from the noise floor, which makes the signal to noise appear better.
for best comparability, adjust to 1w.
so if amp "A" has >102db s/n "a weighted" at full power of 600w, and
amp "B" has >96db s/n unweighted at 1 watt, which is better?


102db - 10db because it is a weighted gives 92db.
600 watts of power is 27.8db more than 1w, which gives 64db s/n at 1 watt unweighted, which sucks.


>96db unweighted at 1 watt is, well, >96db unweighted at 1 watt, which is spectacular.


happy hunting.

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post #1740 of 1832 Old 03-24-2015, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
Or even simpler as 3 channels total, one for Left Surrounds, another for Right Surrounds and one for all Top loudspeakers to get started. You can always add granularity once your ear becomes familiar with the nuances of the room. Remember that the surrounds and top channels are about adding a sense of space and ambiance to what is coming from the front of the room. I suggest that you approach this incrementally. In my experience the golden rule for success in these projects is to build a robust base platform (ie: the old 5.x solution) and then garnish with the magic of the new surround tech.

If your 5.x base is not robust your room overall will sound like poo. If you garnish with fancy surrounds on a pile a poo it's still poo, it's just a fancier pile.

Again this is my 2 cents worth. Discount at will.
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Good point Carl, thank you. It would certainly simplify things for me. I think, ok I know I get carried away quickly....there's still an 8 year old inside of me that has no impluse control and the attention span of a goldfish, so plans change quickly A good foundation is a great anaolgy, as it's the most important thing.

To be sure I'm understanding correctly (I've not set something this complex up before) are you saying to split the signal from the processor for left side into three and amplify each of the left surround speakers, same right and then split the overhead into six from one output?? These numbers are what I'm using simply becuase in my first consultative talk with EG, Shawn said they've had the best success with six sides and six over heads...of course a higher level of complexity certainly doesn't hurt his cause. The configuration could be changed as time went on, but placement changes in the effect speakers over time would cause alteration of the room/ceiling etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
Chop, I would second Carl's comments ... I don't think you need separate channels for your multi-row side surrounds ... just stick with the 7.X.X you are going for ...sides are sides, rears are rears, front overheads are front overheads, rear overheads are rear overheads ... doesn't matter how many there are ...

I think you would just create a nightmare with the delay and such you are talking about adding ... your room is big, but not THAT big
I think I agree..it seems to expand a bit on Carls' and use two sets of overhead channels, front and rear, which would make sense if the processor has discrete channels for those anyhow and doesn't create the need for a more costly processor.

I know Atmos and 3d are newer, but I'm sure someone on the forum has done comparos in the past with regard to sides....multiple rows of surrounds and tried both splitting the signal and processing each independantly...anyone done that?? I see these HTs in the UHE section and get so conflicted. A part of me says the high end manufacture the need for these things and the improvement isn't there, and even sometimes diminishes the quality due to complexity...another part of me says that something like the Trinnov, with placement of sound between any speakers on the same plane, has to add to the experience a great deal. I wish I had the opportunity to compare the two options directly, but that would be next to impossible. The price delta between the two setups for me is in the neighborhood of $30k....I'm not really liking the idea of a $30k experiment
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