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post #181 of 1538 Old 02-20-2013, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Lots of action today, thank you gentlemen!!

I think the suggestion that Mark makes, which is the same as the original plan Matt and I intended, is likely what I will do as far as number of surrounds is concerned... Two sets of sides and a pair of rears, for a total of 6. I will try to get a rough diagram up tomorrow as well. As others have said, I am hiring folks to help..Dennis Erskine for one, and Mark to calibrate and setup with me if time allows him. I could, in all probability, build three moe sentinels to use as surrounds and be totally happy, but then I'm nuts so you know that isn't going to happen.

The cost of surrounds doesn't bother me at this point, its more making sure I get the layout of them right and covering the room optimally. The only thing I am thinking about in my head right now from a savings standpoint would be to unload the 4594 in the surrounds and go with the 4550. In all likelyhood, I could do taht with the seos24/TD15M combo adn cross to 800hz or so and never know the difference but have saved $2500. I agree with Tux's assesment of the potential of the sos24, coverage is maximized. If we go at this thing and end up in a mess with surrounds, I can certainly experiment with other solutions and I'm sure there would be no shortage of folks on avs who would like a grat deal on some SEOS24/TD15M cabinets biggrin.gif

I have admittedly not talked to Dennis in weeks and have to finalize my agreement with him. Construction at my house is just so slow. One day it looks like four weeks from complet eand the next day 8 weeks. The "bunker" will be poured soon, so I am waiting on that to give Dennis the exact dimensions down to the fraction, so layout treatment, etc are all optimized.

Erich, great news on the 24's , can't wait to see how they measure!

Coctostan, Mark, I tend to agre with you guys and woill likely stay with the larger format surrounds, just trying to get as much help as possible to ensure it goes as good as it could.

Matt, you've come to know me too well:D

HFguy, check out the BMS group buy thrad in this sectin, all the info is there for the buy. I can email you the list and info if you pm meyour email address smile.gif
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post #182 of 1538 Old 02-20-2013, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Before everyone sells him on a 12 or 15" waveguide crossed to a 15" woofer around 1khz, lets think about coverage. The beauty of the seos24 as a surround is the lower cutoff is going to be down around 500hz (we think). That'll offer a wide coverage pattern horizontally and vertically. His edge seating is only 4' away though.

I think the current plan is way over kill, but I don't think a 12" WG over a 15" woofer is a good one either, IMO. How about a 15" WG crossed over at 900hz to a pair of 8" woofers or a 10". Do the multi surround thing with delays or what ever, I dunno that stuff, but pack as much punch as you can into a few square feet. You only have 4' of distance to work with. I don't know what commercial theaters use, but if what Erich is saying is the state of practice, it goes to show there's something to keeping the sound source small when its a surround.

Erich is correct on what commercial theaters use. I use a pair of commercial JBL 8340's in my room. These are the older MDF boxes, not the newer plastic boxes. http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/8340.pdf
This work very well in my room, even with a short distance to the first seat. With multiple rows in this build, I would go with multiple side surrounds with proper delay. Spending too much money on this to short change the surrounds.

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post #183 of 1538 Old 02-20-2013, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Erich is correct on what commercial theaters use. I use a pair of commercial JBL 8340's in my room. These are the older MDF boxes, not the newer plastic boxes. http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/8340.pdf
This work very well in my room, even with a short distance to the first seat. With multiple rows in this build, I would go with multiple side surrounds with proper delay. Spending too much money on this to short change the surrounds.

I am happy to do multiple rows now that I know we can implement them correctly. I know Erich is right about the size, I would be happy to use a 10" woofer and a coax in the surrounds, I just can't find a waveguide that seems to work well enough at a low crossover point and is smaller than the seos24. In the end, the room will be large enough that the size of the columns to hold the seos24 equipped surorunds shouldn't be totally out of wack. I think that the fact that the whole room will be basically black and we can use treatments, as instructed by Dennis of course, in between them and it should fit the room well. The columns will end up being about 12"deep and 25" wide, which seems big, but we'll see. I may mock one up to see how it looks. I am also hoping that in Dennis' design, I can recess them a few inches into the outside walls. In short Mike, I agree 100%, spending way too much not to go all out on the surrounds too:D
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post #184 of 1538 Old 02-20-2013, 05:20 PM
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I'm sure I missed it, what size will the room be?
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post #185 of 1538 Old 02-20-2013, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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It's gonna be about 21w X 35L. Ceiling will be about 11ft at the lowest level and somewhere around a foot less for each of the additional two levels...I'm workimg with the builder now, before they pour the room and seeing if maybe we could eek out another foot or two in width. I have the excavator on site still, so it's just going to depend on the extra concrete cost at this point. I sent Mr. Erskine a note today letting him know where we were at and hopefully we will talk in the next couple of days to finalize the measurements.
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post #186 of 1538 Old 02-20-2013, 05:39 PM
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Wow man, that will be one of the bigger dedicated rooms I've seen on avs. So nice!
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post #187 of 1538 Old 02-20-2013, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Unless I missed it I haven't seen a mockup of the room and potential surround placement. I've honestly never dealt with multiple sets of side surrounds so I don't know what how it would work. I think this is getting into the realm where you have to have some experience with it. I'd guess guys like Seaton or Erskine would be helpful.

For instance, I'm not exactly certain what the delays would look like. I also don't know exactly what kind of dispersion you would want with a speaker at each row.

Getting surrounds right on a build of this degree is probably the hardest part. Of course if the surrounds were 12ft away it would be easy, but then we would be talking about a small commercial theater. smile.gif

If the surrounds are too far away, it gets harder to shoot the sound over the closest seats. You would have to raise the speaker up higher and/or aim it higher (ceiling bounce) and in an HT you are not going to have the height to do this. It is all about knowing the coverage pattern and and where to place the speaker to provide the most even coverage.

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post #188 of 1538 Old 02-20-2013, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

If the surrounds are too far away, it gets harder to shoot the sound over the closest seats. You would have to raise the speaker up higher and/or aim it higher (ceiling bounce) and in an HT you are not going to have the height to do this. It is all about knowing the coverage pattern and and where to place the speaker to provide the most even coverage.

I'm not sure I follow as to why you would want to shoot the sound over the closest seats to get even coverage. I'll be honest surround sound is not my area of expertise. I've seen so many different approaches from respected individuals that I really don't know what is best. I'm personally not as picky as some about the surround channels.
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post #189 of 1538 Old 02-20-2013, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I am happy to do multiple rows now that I know we can implement them correctly. I know Erich is right about the size, I would be happy to use a 10" woofer and a coax in the surrounds, I just can't find a waveguide that seems to work well enough at a low crossover point and is smaller than the seos24. In the end, the room will be large enough that the size of the columns to hold the seos24 equipped surorunds shouldn't be totally out of wack. I think that the fact that the whole room will be basically black and we can use treatments, as instructed by Dennis of course, in between them and it should fit the room well. The columns will end up being about 12"deep and 25" wide, which seems big, but we'll see. I may mock one up to see how it looks. I am also hoping that in Dennis' design, I can recess them a few inches into the outside walls. In short Mike, I agree 100%, spending way too much not to go all out on the surrounds too:D

The surrounds need to be raised up several feet and angled down so that the farthest seat in that row gets about the same sound pressure as the nearest seat. This is where 3D modeling would be very useful.

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post #190 of 1538 Old 02-20-2013, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I'm not sure I follow as to why you would want to shoot the sound over the closest seats to get even coverage. I'll be honest surround sound is not my area of expertise. I've seen so many different approaches from respected individuals that I really don't know what is best. I'm personally not as picky as some about the surround channels.

The sound drops off as the angle increases, which is what you want since the distance is short. The next seat in the row is farther away, but getting closer to being in line with the speaker. The third seat even farther, but again getting closer to in line with the speaker. Picture it from above and it is basically the same thing as crossing mains to cover the area. View it as a slice, just involving the one row and the two speakers. Probably not explaining it very well.

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post #191 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

The surrounds need to be raised up several feet and angled down so that the farthest seat in that row gets about the same sound pressure as the nearest seat. This is where 3D modeling would be very useful.

I am going to talk with Dennis today, we emailed back and forth yesterday, but weren't able to talk. I will attach my primative scaled drawing today, but I think his plans will be much more of what you're referring to.

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The sound drops off as the angle increases, which is what you want since the distance is short. The next seat in the row is farther away, but getting closer to being in line with the speaker. The third seat even farther, but again getting closer to in line with the speaker. Picture it from above and it is basically the same thing as crossing mains to cover the area. View it as a slice, just involving the one row and the two speakers. Probably not explaining it very well.

Makes perfect sense, that explaination makes it much easier to understand for me. Thanks for taking the time Mike. Hopefully the extra headroom we have will allow for ideal placement, if not, we will have to just get as close as possible.
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post #192 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I am going to talk with Dennis today, we emailed back and forth yesterday, but weren't able to talk. I will attach my primative scaled drawing today, but I think his plans will be much more of what you're referring to.
Makes perfect sense, that explaination makes it much easier to understand for me. Thanks for taking the time Mike. Hopefully the extra headroom we have will allow for ideal placement, if not, we will have to just get as close as possible.

Excellent decision to go with Dennis. Guaranteed to have an excellent room.
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post #193 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 08:44 AM
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I am nothing more than someone that tinkers here and there, but I want to share my subjective observations. My room is 14'x16' with the ceiling vault at the center of the room. 8' tall at the front )screen) and back wall (open) and 11' at the point. It opens to the foyer on one side and the dining room on the back. Not exactly an friendly acoustic environment by any stretch. As I have no measurement equipment, I cannot give the kind of results you require, however I still wanted to share my experience.

I bought 4 of the 8330 guts from Erich for surround use. Built 2 angled cabs and two conventional boxes and started experimenting in my room. I tried different combinations of positions and angles using both style cabs. I even tried them as mains. I placed the surrounds at ear height and slowly raised them with a calibration with each change using the Yamaha RX-V2400 and the provided mic. The absolute best sounding iteration was the angled cabs as high as I could get them and aimed just above the farthest opposite seat. Although not an option for me, moving the couch forward, toward the front stage actually gave the best experience in my opinion. Since that isn't an option. I tuned and listened, rinsed and repeated. This angled cab at the highest point provided the smoothest and most even coverage among the single row of seats I have. I hope to have the ability to measure at some point.

The configuration at ear level overpowered the first seat on that side an provided there was a person there, muffled everything for the other seats.Same issue half way up the wall. High and angled to the center position made the center seat muffled in some way. It is hard to describe, but even after several calibrations and eq changes this position just didn't work. Change the angle to point just over the opposing seat and calibrated again. This was the winner.

I have yet to integrate the second set as there is no room for them right now. The wife is very flexible and understanding, but I am not going to push my luck putting the rears in the dining room. tongue.gif Hopefully the next house we have can accommodate them.

Chris
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post #194 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Excellent decision to go with Dennis. Guaranteed to have an excellent room.

I agree, I'm gald I have the opportunity to work with him!
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I am nothing more than someone that tinkers here and there, but I want to share my subjective observations. My room is 14'x16' with the ceiling vault at the center of the room. 8' tall at the front )screen) and back wall (open) and 11' at the point. It opens to the foyer on one side and the dining room on the back. Not exactly an friendly acoustic environment by any stretch. As I have no measurement equipment, I cannot give the kind of results you require, however I still wanted to share my experience.

I bought 4 of the 8330 guts from Erich for surround use. Built 2 angled cabs and two conventional boxes and started experimenting in my room. I tried different combinations of positions and angles using both style cabs. I even tried them as mains. I placed the surrounds at ear height and slowly raised them with a calibration with each change using the Yamaha RX-V2400 and the provided mic. The absolute best sounding iteration was the angled cabs as high as I could get them and aimed just above the farthest opposite seat. Although not an option for me, moving the couch forward, toward the front stage actually gave the best experience in my opinion. Since that isn't an option. I tuned and listened, rinsed and repeated. This angled cab at the highest point provided the smoothest and most even coverage among the single row of seats I have. I hope to have the ability to measure at some point.

The configuration at ear level overpowered the first seat on that side an provided there was a person there, muffled everything for the other seats.Same issue half way up the wall. High and angled to the center position made the center seat muffled in some way. It is hard to describe, but even after several calibrations and eq changes this position just didn't work. Change the angle to point just over the opposing seat and calibrated again. This was the winner.

I have yet to integrate the second set as there is no room for them right now. The wife is very flexible and understanding, but I am not going to push my luck putting the rears in the dining room. tongue.gif Hopefully the next house we have can accommodate them.

Chris

Thanks very much for sharing your expriences Chris. I think that Dennis is going to give me a very good idea of what should be done and how, but am crtian that they surrounds will still need some tweaking to get perfect, or as close as possible. I think the general consencous is similar to your experience.
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post #195 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Let me just say, Dennis Erskine is the man! I just alked with him for over an hour about the plan and some of the details involved. We are going to firm up our agreement here in the next day or so, so I hope ot have more details to share soon! He has reassued me about the surrounds and the ability to tune the whole thing in a way that will make it all work out.

I am also looking into some other amps now...anyone have any experience with QSC's DCA amps?? They can be used directly with the dsp922 to delay, align, do the active xovers, etc..so they are apealing in that sense, but a bit more moolah...
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post #196 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 01:42 PM
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DSP922 ??
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post #197 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I am also looking into some other amps now...anyone have any experience with QSC's DCA amps?? They can be used directly with the dsp922 to delay, align, do the active xovers, etc..so they are apealing in that sense, but a bit more moolah...

A little experience here...I own 9 of them (along with an 8-channel CX168) and will be using them in both my HT room and family room systems. They are a solid amp that plug directly into the QSC DSP's Dennis is recommending (via the DataPort). They are identical in internal circuitry to the PLX and CX line.
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DSP922 ??

QSC's Basis/Rave/DSP line of DSP's. The 922-series models differ based on their inputs/outputs. I've had a 922DZ for a few years but haven't used it yet as it does not have analog inputs but instead uses a digital 25-pin AES/EBU; which can be broken out but I recently found out the DZ needs a CobraNet network to run on and will need additional hardware to function -- which may not be worth the trouble for the application.
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post #198 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 02:10 PM
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qsc's network/dsp system.

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post #199 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 02:35 PM
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I have read that the QSC amps were intended to work with the DSP but thats about all they offer. Their other lineup is just as good if not better(PL series) so its up to you. For the extra money I would go with a different model. But being able to easily work with the DSP is nice.
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post #200 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 03:22 PM
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i know that you are shooting for the megatheater, but i'm wondering about the surrounds.

in one of qsc's "small theater" mockups, they are using their bottom of the line surrounds which have a 1" tweeter and 8" woofer.

granted, they employ a few per side and back channel, which makes sense for coverage.

and, i totally understand why you would want more subwoofer than they are showing, but they are using 10 modest surround speakers in a theater spec'd for about 300 seats. the non-horn loaded tweeters will also provide more of a diffuse surround sound and there is no reason why they have to be actively crossed.

also, i'm not sure the qsc mega-scale control system is really required for a home theater. in combination with your receiver, a pair of inuke dsp amps would seem to be able to do everything that the surround channels will require and if you wanted to run higher quality amps on the mains a simple dcx2496 should be able to cover that.

just some random thoughts.


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post #201 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not married to the QSC stuff, just a suggestion Dennis had made today. There are plenty of eq/amp options out there for less. I did like the way the Dennis said that I can put a rack mount pc, dsp and the sac amps in the rack, access the parameters and have them continuously change active crossovers/ alignments etc all remotely
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post #202 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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LTD, I am thinking and thinking over your talk about the surrounds. I have two thoughts on this...

1. I know they use less extreme surrounds in commercial theaters much bigger. I could save $2500 or so by switching to the 4550 or even more by staying with the 360s for surrounds.

2. Most commercial theaters don't have anywhere near the quality that many of us on AVS seek in our audio adventures. I know that the SEOS24/4594 TD15M combo has output abilities way past my needs, but it will also offer sq advantages over many of the alternatives. This is the thing I can't get past. I can't help but wonder about those minute little differences that may be present with different options. There isn't much point in downgrading the woofers, as there is no really $$ savings to be had. I wonder what the performance would be like if I stuffed a 4550 in the seos waveguides and mated those to the TDs' with a cross around 800hz or so. It's hard to say without trying them I guess.
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post #203 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 07:49 PM
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i agree about the quality dimension. the mega-mains and the mega-subs all seem like heading in the right direction even if a little overkill. the thing that strikes me about the surrounds is i'm just wondering if copies of your mains are the right tool for the job there. what i was kind of thinking was that a full diffuse soundfield might be a lot better for the surround and back channels. non-horn/tiny-horn speakers with a good 8" woofer have the advantage that they stay omni directional up to around 2khz where they can be crossed to a dome tweeter or small horn. a long row of them on the sides and back mean that the load is distributed across several speakers. there is something about having a surround horn aimed at my head that is bugging me. fwiw...

maybe banks of these across the sides and backs?

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits/fusion8-kit.html

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post #204 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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i agree about the quality dimension. the mega-mains and the mega-subs all seem like heading in the right direction even if a little overkill. the thing that strikes me about the surrounds is i'm just wondering if copies of your mains are the right tool for the job there. what i was kind of thinking was that a full diffuse soundfield might be a lot better for the surround and back channels. non-horn speakers with a good 8" woofer have the advantage that they stay omni directional up to around 2khz where they can be crossed to a dome tweeter which is also pretty much omni directional at that point. a long row of them on the sides and back mean that the load is distributed across several speakers. there is something about having a surround horn aimed at my head that is bugging me. fwiw...

I'm gonna run through this with Dennis as well. I see your point completely, I just wonder if based on placement and room size, the horns could be made optimal. I looked into building something with ten inch woofers and Scan rev ring radiators for my living room...wondering if those work out well as surrounds too if the mega surrounds don't. I expressed all the ideas in my phone conversation with Dennis today and he didn't try to deter me from the mega surrounds, so that was promising.
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post #205 of 1538 Old 02-21-2013, 08:54 PM
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i made some edits/changes to that post. also, i hadn't been following your thread closely across the past day or so, so i missed how much conversation there was on surrounds. didn't mean to beat a dead horse. :-)

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post #206 of 1538 Old 02-22-2013, 04:46 AM
 
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What about using some bipolar or dipolar surrounds? I know that sounds crazy given the level of overkill that is sure to happen, but in my own, modest, home theater, I have tried different types of surrounds and keep going back to dipole and/or bipole. The just seem to be more....diffuse and enveloping compared to direct radiators.
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post #207 of 1538 Old 02-22-2013, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i agree about the quality dimension. the mega-mains and the mega-subs all seem like heading in the right direction even if a little overkill. the thing that strikes me about the surrounds is i'm just wondering if copies of your mains are the right tool for the job there. what i was kind of thinking was that a full diffuse soundfield might be a lot better for the surround and back channels. non-horn speakers with a good 8" woofer have the advantage that they stay omni directional up to around 2khz where they can be crossed to a dome tweeter which is also pretty much omni directional at that point. a long row of them on the sides and back mean that the load is distributed across several speakers. there is something about having a surround horn aimed at my head that is bugging me. fwiw...

I'm gonna run through this with Dennis as well. I see your point completely, I just wonder if based on placement and room size, the horns could be made optimal. I looked into building something with ten inch woofers and Scan rev ring radiators for my living room...wondering if those work out well as surrounds too if the mega surrounds don't. I expressed all the ideas in my phone conversation with Dennis today and he didn't try to deter me from the mega surrounds, so that was promising.

My suggestion would be to close-couple the top of the horn to the ceiling (within a few inches) and set the angle which can fit with the driver on the back and makes for a workable aim. Now you can build the 15" to fit below either angled the same, less, or not at all. The ceiling acts like a mirror, so you have a behavior similar to an MTM with this config which can be used to some benefit with shading across the seats.

BTW, while the same angle horn with the same brand drivers may have some common signatures, when you start talking about a 2 way driver loading a horn vs. a single element, it would be the exception and not the rule that they were very closely matched other than possibly spectral balance. The qualifier for "matching" IMO is how well the speakers create a phantom image while also having subjectively similar spectral balance. In my own speaker designs, I have the same driver and DSP controlled crossover above 200-300Hz in each speaker, so 300-500Hz up is as matched as can be in different box sizes, and this is the range most imaging cues come from.

My 2c into the pot.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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post #208 of 1538 Old 02-22-2013, 07:06 PM
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This going to be one Killer HT.
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post #209 of 1538 Old 02-22-2013, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

My suggestion would be to close-couple the top of the horn to the ceiling (within a few inches) and set the angle which can fit with the driver on the back and makes for a workable aim. Now you can build the 15" to fit below either angled the same, less, or not at all. The ceiling acts like a mirror, so you have a behavior similar to an MTM with this config which can be used to some benefit with shading across the seats.

BTW, while the same angle horn with the same brand drivers may have some common signatures, when you start talking about a 2 way driver loading a horn vs. a single element, it would be the exception and not the rule that they were very closely matched other than possibly spectral balance. The qualifier for "matching" IMO is how well the speakers create a phantom image while also having subjectively similar spectral balance. In my own speaker designs, I have the same driver and DSP controlled crossover above 200-300Hz in each speaker, so 300-500Hz up is as matched as can be in different box sizes, and this is the range most imaging ques come from.

My 2c into the pot.

Just to be sure I'm understanding correctly..it seems you are saying that although it would seem like maybe one of the 4550s or similar in the surrounds may not match as well with the mains as some think?? If from those relatively lower frequencies and up is of the most important for matching, it would seem to me that your thoughts on using the same 4594 in the surrounds as the mains, in the same horn, are similar to mine....it's worth the extra cost.

Thanks for the thoughts on the surround placement too. Cool idea, and it would also help in making the columns a bit nicer looking too.
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post #210 of 1538 Old 02-26-2013, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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No real news to share yet ladies and gents... Once the couple of seos24s that are coming early show up, we will have some measurements to share though. I am planning to order a couple of 18sound horns this week to try compared to the seos24 for the surrounds. If I can implement them well, they will certainly give the surrounds more flexability, placement wise. Any educated opinion on the XT vs the XR?? I like the XT personally, 60x50, useable down to 500hz, successfully implemented in existing desings. What thoughts do you guys have?

Actually, now that I really look at it...the 18sound horns are a few inches deeper than the SEOS24, so all I would accomplish is columns that are narrower, but stick out into the room more...eh
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