4x FTW21's + 4x MFW15's...My HT Room results - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:32 PM
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Looking good! Easy fix on your first tests since you just had the subs too hot. That made the biggest help. Guess I'll be next with measurement thread as I've put if off over a month now.

What are your mains? Are you going to upgrade them after the next sub upgrade?
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Again folks, I just want to thank you all for trying to help me out.

Here's where I am for now....I redid my front stage and this is how it looks now.

That is a huge improvement. I think the strategic placement of the shoes put it over the top. biggrin.gif

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Old 02-14-2013, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all,

AVH,
My front towers are from a company that's gone belly up
I bought them 15 years ago and changed all the speakers in it last year.
I'm gonna have to upgrade my towers later on this year.
I don't like how quickly they drop on the high side mad.gif
I also find it weird with the boost on 8-9HZ!

Here's my latest graph after playing with the MiniDSP for a bit.


It sounds absolutely terrible that way to me!
There's NO BASS!
I've listened to alot of different songs. movie clips, etc... and I really don't know how one can listen to a system with so little bass this way.
So with that being said, it seems I like running my subs HOT!
About 10-12 DB hot

I'm gonna try my rec. eq to see what happens this weekend

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Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:39 AM
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:32 AM
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That curve is looking MUCH better.

I run mine a a couple db hot too, especially below 30Hz.

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Old 02-14-2013, 07:59 AM
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I wonder if you aren't suffering from the preference vs reference bug? With as much output as you have, even with it running flat, you should have enough headroom to hit reference levels. But If you're used to having a mode at some mid/upper bass frequency, having flat response can take some getting used to. I know I did. The first time I measured, but before I started upgrading, i had a boost at 30 Hz. I thought it sounded better than when I had a flat response with more headroom....at first. Now I realize that I got used to hearing something other than what the soundtrack dictated.

But what you're hearing now is the way the bass is supposed to sound. I also run mine hot, but maintain the flat FR. Some people do employ a house curve, and that's certainly an option for you, too. IMO, you should leave the curve as is, bump up the sub level on your AVR a bit (you've certainly got the headroom) and listen for a week or two. The bass should sound natural and realistic. If you still want to add a house curve after that, try it. But there's a reason why most people aim for a flat response curve. And your last measurement looks WAAAAAAY better than your first.
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:33 AM
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sergio, take a look at my preferred response in my SEOS td12x thread. You will see that I run my subs quite hot smile.gif

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Old 02-14-2013, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Again folks, I just want to thank you all for trying to help me out.
It's also discouraging reading some of the replies...I have a lot to do still !!!!
My room is not finished as I still need to do all the acoustic panels and l believe this will help my situation out.

To answer some of the questions.
I have tried the EQ wizard and it sucks completely!
It's very good to correct the mid and highs but it also DESTROYS my lows.
It cuts from about 15 hz down dramatically. so f'k that!

l did not try to measure from another location
Yes my towers play pretty low but it lacks the highs it seems.
I tried crossing them lower and it kills the 80, 90 and 100 hz pretty bad. so its back to 120HZ.

I'm pretty freakin tired right now and going to bed.
I'll probably experiment more this weekend.

Here's where I am for now....I redid my front stage and this is how it looks now.


Nick,
Here's the graph you asked for...hope its what you asked for.


I have a lot to do...I'm considering changing my towers now.

Thanks all again....what a great place to learn this stuff and you guys are great!

I would pull the center speaker, slightly forward, so that the top of the center speaker is not behind the subs on each side.

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Old 02-14-2013, 11:04 AM
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the suckout around 140hz could be caused by the placement of your mains.

the wavelength at 140hz is 8.1 feet long. when you are within 1/4 of a wavelength of a boundary, the wave reflects back to the speaker 1/2 wavelength delayed and polarity inverted, so you get a cancellation.

just eyeballing your room, the main speaker woofers are about 2 feet off of the floor, about 2 feet from the back wall, and about 2 feet from the side wall.

moving them around a little more may fix that suckout. otherwise with one band of eq to notch out the resonance at just under 80hz, your frequency response looks great!

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Old 02-15-2013, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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New graph to share but first...

LTD02,
I will experiment with moving my towers a little to see what happens with the response...thanks

Mike,
Thanks for the tip on the center channel...I have moved it forward.
Correct me if I wrong , but, the center does nothing while taking measurements cause it's off no?

Brandon,
I will take a look so far...don't even know which thread your referring too...but I'll find it...thanks

wth718,
I've never had measuring equipment, ever, in my life. I've always listened to whatever ear balling my system.
I have saved some settings with my ear balling method and will post it soon.
I know for a fact that I like my subs hot and am sure my graphs will show that.

I know this much though...I LOVE low frequency, I mean 30hz and below. I can't stand higher bass freq. like 80 to 120 say.
When I boost those it just destroys the sound for me.
Perfect example for me is the graph below:
I ran the eq wizard on my HK7550HD rec. and it does what I feared. I have ALWAYS complained on the HK7550HD thread that the EzSet EQ DESTROYS my low end and the graph proves it. HK completely failed to me with how they set it up to KILL the very low end.
It does ok with the higher end of the spectrum though.
I've always said on the board that I'll never use it and my graph confirms it.

With all that being said, there's no way in hell I won't run my subs hot.
Right now, I'm pretty happy the way it sounds and how much this has helped my sound in my room.
Now, I seem to have a bigger problem and that is what's happening from 8K up. It really boggles my mind cause:
1. when playing tones I can clearly hear 14k test tone. (Hey I'm not 20 so that's pretty dam good!)
2. My kids hear 17K test tones so my speakers must be playing it but my mic says otherwise!
3. I can't believe how much it drops FAST!
4. If I add alot of treble, it changes NOTHING!
5. I'm wondering if something is wrong with the mic?


Anyways,
The graph below is what I get after running the eq wizard on the HK7550HD (their flagship model !!!)
It's the purple line and it destroys my low end and it does squat for the high end!
It seems it's only good for the mid end and it leaves some pretty good spikes too!
So, I will NEVER use their eq wizard!
Look at what it does on my low end
at 8HZ it drops 12DB!!!
at 7 HZ it drops 16DB!!!

Even if I boost my subs 20 db it hardly moves on the low end...very failed attempt on their part.

Here's the graph...purple is eq'd


Once again...thanks to everyone for helping me smile.gif

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4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:49 AM
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I love a lot of bass too and your graph looks great without the eq until the top. I would love to hear it in person.

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Old 02-15-2013, 07:27 AM
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My intent on asking if you had used the auto EQ your receiver has was to determine if any of your response issues can be addressed by EQ vs placement, since you had limited options. Looking at the last graph, that does seem to be the case. I'd venture to say that with a different receiver (different EQ) and different mains you could achieve a great FR.

As far as it being hot, I agree! I run mine hot, too. But you can run them hot without changing the basic response shape of your low end. You're most of the way there, man!!

You still have them crossed at 120, right? I wonder if changing the sub distance on your receiver can address the suckout in that area?
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the suckout around 140hz could be caused by the placement of your mains.

the wavelength at 140hz is 8.1 feet long. when you are within 1/4 of a wavelength of a boundary, the wave reflects back to the speaker 1/2 wavelength delayed and polarity inverted, so you get a cancellation.

just eyeballing your room, the main speaker woofers are about 2 feet off of the floor, about 2 feet from the back wall, and about 2 feet from the side wall.

moving them around a little more may fix that suckout. otherwise with one band of eq to notch out the resonance at just under 80hz, your frequency response looks great!

Pretty much what I meant, though didn't describe it so much. Still think turning one or two pairs of front subs 90deg and pushing against front wall while crossing higher should help.
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Old 02-17-2013, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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OK guys,

I'm at a complete standstill as I do not know what to do anymore.
This graph is making me say...WTF is going on?


I've always had a dip in the 100HZ to 300HZ range. This with control panel sound set to 7.1
Look at the result when I set it to Stereo !!!! WTF?
Please note that I changed NOTHING! EXCEPT, control panel sound setting between these 2 readings
I've always wondered why my highs dropped so quick! MY ears tell me I should go with purple.


Question is:
Which graph should l trust?
This is discouraging cause I don't know how to do a proper measurement.
What am I doing wrong?
Is everyone doing readings seeing the wrong output? If not, how do you know for sure?

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Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:22 AM
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Hey FS.

Measuring more than one speaker at a time is almost useless. I assume thats what your doing with stereo. I do measure the L and R together afterward just to "see" but its much harder to get multiple speaker interactions right AND individual speaker-sub interactions correct concurrently.

Start with individual speakers and then once you got that expand to multiple interactions.

I suggest starting with the center channel. Using "stereo" mode and unhooking all the others measure and tweak for flattest response. Then move to R and L individually. Tweaking for the L and R IMO is best handled with secondary priority to Center integration. IOW i put priority for FR on my center and get the L and R as good as I can without mucking up the center.

Your response issues are likely from SBIR and Allison effect interactions. The reflected wave off the front/side walls is interacting with the primary sound with some phase shift.

Broadband treatment behind the front speakers will help that 100-300hz region. The problem is you cant move the speakers far enough into the room to mitigate the "bounce" or close enough to remove it entirely without a baffle wall, so your best bet is to absorb it.

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Old 02-17-2013, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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NicksHitachi,

Thanks for your patience with me...I'm listening and learning and appreciate everything you've written.
I did all kinds of measurements today.
I have done every single speaker and checked the results.
Here's my center alone (blue) and my right channel speaker alone (black)


After all that I decided to do it by ear.
I adjusted everything through the MiniDSP.
This is what I got after tweaking everything to my liking. I have saved this setting cause it just sounds fantastic to me!


I couldn't wait to hear what my ears liked and am very happy at what I see.
Like I said...this graph CLEARLY shows that I love bass!

I'm very comfortable running my system this way. smile.gif
I really need more highs now...I'm 49 years old and just can't hear the highs as I used too.

Question...Can I change my tweeters to horns and would this help in the high range?

thanks again

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Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:40 PM
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Sergio,

That actually looks pretty good to me as I am also running my subs quite hot, and the house curve you have incorporated should sound awful nice. You are basically +/- 5dB all the way down to the midbass area where the added hump probably is what is helping to your preference of this particular setup. All things considered, you are not even in the same room as what you originally started with, and it should sound WAY more cohesive between all the frequencies.

I will also say, assuming you aren't running into any clipping issues on your amps for the subs, that is a ridiculous bass bump. I am at 10dB hot and you are staring 20dB's hot right in the face!! haha. Awesome

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Old 02-17-2013, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Brandon,

I'm in awe how much bass I'm getting...my amps are @ 1 oclock on the dials.
I have problems clipping my amps. My volume goes upto +6 and @ -5 the lights don't clip, as a matter of fact the VPL lights on the 10000Q do NOT come on.
I can't even get the EP4000 to clip!

I'm telling you the bass is insane here and I love it!

I need to fix my highs and I'm really interested in what you just built for your LCR.
I'm gonna change my towers unless replacing my tweeters with Horns will help.
Would you have any idea if that would help?

thanks for your help man...

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Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:38 PM
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It would help, unfortunately, it isn't quite that easy. Changing out your tweets with horns would require adjustment or complete overhaul of the internal crossovers in your mains. IMO it would just be easier to keep those as-is and look at building out something like I did, or the Sentinels that Rilla built as they seem to perform very similarly. It is not to say switching your tweets out is possible, but for the effort, if you have the funds, might as well go for some new LCR's that take your build in a different direction to possibly find something that you prefer more than what you currently have. With all the bass, a high efficiency build would be able to not only keep up but shine with your already potent low end smile.gif

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Old 02-26-2013, 04:28 PM
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What's the most boost and most cut you've had to use? I've had to cut 50hz by 9db and just stopped there even though could use more. I boosted 30hz 6db to make up some of the 50hz hump that is already cut. What about the input and output volumes, have you used them any?

Before
[URL]http://[/URL]

After
[URL]http://[/URL]

Bassthathz also thought something was wrong with my drop off under 10hz. Did you click the button to bypass the filter there? I have to literally hook everything up in theater to measure and unhook it go into another room and rehook everything up to make changes so trying to figure out what to do before another 5 hour measuring session That's how long it took me to go from before to after. Many setting in between of course but still. Right now I have it 20 hot on low end like you as I like it like that for music.
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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AVH,

I was meaning to write something on your thread so my apology there...I've been really busy.

I'll try to help as best I can. smile.gif
I imagine you are speaking about the MiniDSP.
My 27Hz is boosted +6DB and my 77HZ is cut -7DB and 80HZ is cut -10DB.
(This is REW that set this up)

My 4x 21's are connected to 2 outputs of the MiniDSP (2x4) and have the bypass on (This has got to be the reason why your low is dropping like crazy) Please hit the bypass on your 21's (All of them, they can take it)
I also have my 10HZ boosted +4DB MiniDSP
My fronts are 4x 15's are on 1 output of the MiniDSP and have the bypass OFF because I'm afraid of blowing them up.

My Receivers sub output is at -5 (range is -10 to +10)
My input gain on the MiniDSP is ALSO at -5DB (it puts out too much bass and drowns everything else if I have it at 0)

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one to like my low end +20DB and you have 10x 21's? WOW!

Sorry if I'm repeating but I would hit the Bypass for your subs 100%!
Oh and my 10000Q outputs are at 13:00 oclock!

Hope this helps and if I can do anything else please let me know.

Regards,

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Equipment Speakers:
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4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
(All of them, they can take it)

I am not a lawyer, but you should definitely put a disclaimer on that biggrin.gif



Also, wth is 13 O' Clock?? haha, Canadians.... (just kidding bro!!!)

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Old 02-26-2013, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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AVH,

I COMPLETELY agree with the warning our good buddy Beast put forth!
Please use my suggestions with CAUTION!

In all seriousness, I would not use BYPASS if I was using 1 or 2 subs, but I believe that because we have SOO much headroom that boosting the low end is not causing any problems.

I can say this from my end, I have lots of boost on the VERY low end and when I blast my heavy bass music, my subs do not move all that much! When I see Bassthathz clips of his subs, I cannot believe how much they move.

when I'm blasting my music my 21's move MAYBE 1" total and I swear it's if that!


Beast,

USA military says 0600 hours!
Canadian Military says 6am.

As you say in the good ole USA Same sh!t different day!
Love you to bro! biggrin.gif

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4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:41 PM
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Oh,yeah I think that's what I need to do too! I can't make them move too much as the 10Q is limited lol. I don't want more power though either I don't think. Would rather have them loafing along at 120+dbs during movie ULF. Would hate to see one terminated by ULF from too much power. You know as well as I do that you can crank the volume as much as you like with music and it's just pure bliss.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:46 AM
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With my 8 18's I still have a few tracks that get the meter on my 14k up to -4dB and that is at reference!!! I don't understand how that much wattage can be getting sucked up so easily with so much displacement available, but it certainly is quite fun biggrin.gif I know it would be silly to get another 14k and bridge each one to four drivers...but I kinda want to smile.gif That is more power than the subs can handle though.

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Old 02-27-2013, 04:25 PM
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As I understand, an FP14k @ -3db is basically an equivalent power level to a 10kQ VPL'ing; give or take a few watts.
and a 1-ch of a FP14k VPL'ing is basically an equivalent power level to 1 bridged output of a 10kQ VPL'ing (at a higher ohmage); give or take a few watts.
and 2-ch's of a FP14k VPL'ing is basically an equivalent power level to 2 bridged outputs of a 10kQ VPL'ing (at a higher ohmage); give or take a few watts.
Quote:
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When I see Bassthathz clips of his subs, I cannot believe how much they move.
when I'm blasting my music my 21's move MAYBE 1" total and I swear it's if that!

About 8 months ago I made some vids of the 21's in free-air, but that was with the iTech8k, it was about ~60mm p-p @ 10-20hz.
About 3 months ago I made a vid of the 21's sealed, but that was with the iTech8k, it was about ~30mm p-p @ 17-30hz.
The other vids from 3+months ago were all of my LMS powered with an iTech8k, ~70mm p-p @ 10-30hz.

I've only made one vid of my 21's excursion on the 10kQ clone (about 5 months ago); it was about ~10mm p-p @ 50hz.
The recent ones from last week was my SDX-15 on the 10kQ clone, it was about ~60mm p-p @ 30hz.

[All of this is with known songs, in highly controlled conditions, of course.]

I have yet to make a vid of the 21's on a clone doing ULF stuff; but I planned/plan to...
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Well something new to make one say "WTF" is going on!

Please help me digest this.
In the sound control panel I have always chosen the 7.1 output.
I decided to try stereo and can't believe the difference in output.

Green is 7.1 output and Purple is Stereo output!
You can clearly see a big difference in the 2.


What do you all set your sound control output to?

thanks

My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:13 PM
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XP or win7?
what soundcard? Have you tried ASIO?
All soundcard DSP's disabled?

Doesn't surprise me much.
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