3-way Trio of Theater Speakers to build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 02-14-2013, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I need some help and advise on which of these two builds that I will soon be building for my theater room. The two options are


a.)
First design is the full size Statements that utilize the Fountek Neo Cd3.0 for the tweeter, it uses a pair of Tang Band W4 1337SD's per speaker for the mids, and also a pair of Dayton RS225-8's per speaker for the low end.

b.)
Second design that I am considering is Bob Crites' Corn-Scala that utilizes the Selenium 220Ti tweeter with the Selenium HM11-25 horn for the tweeter, and a Selenium D405 CD with a JBL clone M2380 horn for the mids, and a Klipsch K-33 clone for the woofer.


Of course I realize that these are two totally different design concepts. I know that the Corn-Scala will be capable of greater SPL due to it having greater efficiency, and that it will also rule for the dynamics, but those attributes are not what I want and/or like. . Here is what I want in a theater speaker:

1. Detail & Clarity in the very top end.
2. Revealing-ness
3. Sound-Stage
4. Full body sound

I am also open to other driver combo suggestions, but it must be a 3 way design as I am dead set on going with a 3-way versus a 2-way. I have considered various other designs that include drivers such as the Radian 950PB, JBL 2426 & 2012, Beyma TPL-??, BMC 4550 & 4592. Horns that I have considered are the JBL clone M2380, Selenium HF17-25, Elip-Track 400 from Dave Harris, Seos-24

Any advise on how these two will compare both subjectively and objectively, and how would they fit my needs and wants?

Also looking for other 3-way design ideas as well.
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post #2 of 32 Old 02-14-2013, 06:50 AM
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Hi Marty. Have you considered the Clearwave Dynamic 4T and 4CC? I built these and they are amazing. They have 4 7" Dayton reference woofers, and two of the same mids as the statements per speaker, including the center channel.
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post #3 of 32 Old 02-15-2013, 03:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I am not considering the Clearwaters at this time.

Basically what I am trying to decide on is...Corn-Scala versus Statements for use in a home theater.

My top priorities are clarity, detail, revealing-ness, excellent mid-range, and a nice sound stage.

Does anyone know how the Statements compare to the Salk Songtowers or the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower?

Bump to the top!
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post #4 of 32 Old 02-15-2013, 04:23 AM
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The Cornscalas will give you all those attributes your looking for.

I would advise using driver combos that work with Bobs x overs or the ones from ALK

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post #5 of 32 Old 02-15-2013, 02:05 PM
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While the Cornscala looks like the best option of the ones you provided you might want to also look at the SEOS designs. they are simpler 2 way designs that will give you everything you want unless you have to have a 3 way.

Or do you not want a subwoofer?

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post #6 of 32 Old 02-15-2013, 04:30 PM
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The SEOS Sentinals would be a Great option with a sub. Since this is a home theater, I'm assuming you'll have a sub.

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post #7 of 32 Old 02-16-2013, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

While the Cornscala looks like the best option of the ones you provided you might want to also look at the SEOS designs. they are simpler 2 way designs that will give you everything you want unless you have to have a 3 way.

Or do you not want a subwoofer?


I do have a couple of Subs on the way to supplement my single MFW-15, so what ever I end up going with will be crossed over to a sub. With that being said, I definitely want to have full range towers that also have some nice mid-bass punch to them. I am dead set against using a 2-way design as I much prefer 3-ways as opposed to the former. I have had lots of folks tell me all of the advantages to going 2-way, but I prefer speakers that have a dedicated mid-range driver as without one, the sound just doesn't seem right to me. but, I am still open to ideas on using the Seos waveguides ands some other various horns & drivers in a 3-way configuration. If you have any suggestions, please say so!
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post #8 of 32 Old 02-16-2013, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

The Cornscalas will give you all those attributes your looking for.

I would advise using driver combos that work with Bobs x overs or the ones from ALK


Yes, I will definitely be using several subs, but I am also dead set on having 3-way, full range speakers. I am just split on the whole Corn-Scala versus Statement thing.


The whole reason for being interested in the Statements is because of the experience I have had listening to highend, more musical hifi speakers used in an ht setting. I thought that the B&W 803D2 and HTM2D2 theater setup sounded like the absolutely best 5.1 setup I have ever experienced. The only true high efficiency setups that I have ever heard were the Klipsch RF-7ii + RC-64ii and also RF-83 + RC-64 as well as the really highend Klipsch Palladium towers and matching center. I did not like those, not one bit.

To me there is much more than playing movies at high volumes with speakers that fill every seat in the room with clear and consise sound....I mean, that is good and all, but I am more of the type of person who enjoys the subtle details, clarity & revealing-ness.

Does anyone know how the Statements would stack up against the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers or the Salk SuperCharged Song Towers?
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post #9 of 32 Old 02-16-2013, 08:24 AM
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Well, it sounds like the 3 way Cornscala is what your looking for then. Don't let you're past Klipsch experience deter you. The Heritage Klipsch sound is not like the newer stuff. They will have all the slam your looking for with great detail.

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post #10 of 32 Old 02-17-2013, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again for the reply, Brian. I wonder how the Statements compare to the Ascend Acoustic Sierra's for music? If the Ascends are better, then I will go with the Corn-Scalas. One of the main benefits to going with the Statements is that I could sell off my 2 channel setup and have everything together in one. I currently have Definitive Technology BP-30's with the C/L/R-2000 for my center channel, the BP2x for side surrounds and SM450's for the rear surrounds. I am powering those with a Denon AVR-3312 and my sub is a single, stock, MFW-15 that is being powered by an EP4000 due to the original amp being blown. My 2 channel setup is comprised of Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1's being powered by an older Yamaha 663 receiver.

Do you guys think that moving from the Def Tech BP-30's to the Statements would be a lateral move? Also, can anyone tell me how the Statements would compare to the Ascend Sierra and the Supercharged Salk Song-Towers?
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post #11 of 32 Old 02-18-2013, 05:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Statements versus Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers?

Statements versus Salk Song Towers?

Comparing detail, clarity, revealing-ness, mid-range full-ness, treble lush-ness?
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post #12 of 32 Old 02-18-2013, 11:56 AM
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i would ask this in the normal Speaker thread

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post #13 of 32 Old 02-19-2013, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so now I am going to be doing both the Statements, and the Corn-Scala in kind of a shoot out. I found a pair of Mini-Statements for $600 bucks plus shipping, so I plan on purchasing these speakers in order to sort of get an idea of whether or not I like them. As long as I don't get eaten alive in shipping charges from the west coast to the mid-west/south then I will either sell the speakers if I do not like them as much as the Corn-Scalas, or if I do like them, I plan on taking the drivers out and order the necessary parts to make it into a full size Statement.


I am still debating on what driver & horn combo's I want to use in the Corn-Scalas. I could just purchase everything from Bob Crites for around $1,200 bucks for the pair, that would be with the CT125 tweeter and stock horn + the Selenium D405 and JBL clone M2380 horn + the Eminince CW1526cw woofer.

The thing I can't make a firm decision on is the midrange driver and horn, mostly because that is where the majority of this speakers sound quality is going to depend on, right? Right now I am debating between the Radian 950PB and the BMS 4592, which, if I go with one of those, what would be a good quality horn to match it to? I am not even sure what size those drivers' exit size are.

I would love to do the Corn-Scala design by Dave Harris with the B&C DE10 tweeter with its stock horn + the B&C DE85 with his Eliptrack 400 horn, and then have 4 Dayton Pro-10's for the low end. But other people have told me that for the price of the B&C DE85 with the Eliptrack 400 horn, I could do much better for the money.

How do you guys feel about this?
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post #14 of 32 Old 02-20-2013, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Can anyone give me some advise/suggestions as to whether or not there are any better woofers for this application than Bob Crites CW1526 (eminince driver)? The CW1526 woofers are almost $300 bucks per pair, and I just feel that I can do better than that. I have thought about going with 4 Dayton Pro-10's per cab. Does that sound like a good idea? I asked Bob if I could use my JBL 2226j woofers in place of the CW1526 and he said absolutely not, they would not work. I kind of feel like he was bs'ing me about that because the JBL's seem to be fine of the Corn-Scala design.


Need suggestions on woofer choices??
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post #15 of 32 Old 02-20-2013, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I asked Bob if I could use my JBL 2226j woofers in place of the CW1526 and he said absolutely not, they would not work.
If you don't believe him your alternative is to software model other drivers in the design.

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post #16 of 32 Old 02-20-2013, 02:07 PM
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Bob has no reason to lie about it. He's been nothing but helpful to everyone who deals with him even when they are not buying his components.

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post #17 of 32 Old 02-20-2013, 03:12 PM
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The only true high efficiency setups that I have ever heard were the Klipsch RF-7ii + RC-64ii and also RF-83 + RC-64 as well as the really highend Klipsch Palladium towers and matching center. I did not like those, not one bit.

I think you should also give a listen to some other HE builds before completely ruling them out. Of all those you listed, they are just the tip of the iceberg. I am pretty sensitive to upper frequencies and I am still in love with my SEOS build which doesn't sound harsh to me at all. The RF7's tend to be a little "ringy" and harsh for a fair amount of people who have demoed them.

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post #18 of 32 Old 02-21-2013, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Bob has no reason to lie about it. He's been nothing but helpful to everyone who deals with him even when they are not buying his components.

I am sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that he was lying, I just thought there is surely a better woofer out there that could be used in place of the K-33 or CW1526w.

Just out of curiousity, how do you guys feel about the BMS Coaxal drivers, such as the BMS 4590 or 4592 in place of the CT125 & Selenium D405/M2380?
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post #19 of 32 Old 02-21-2013, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Statements versus Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers?

Statements versus Salk Song Towers?

Comparing detail, clarity, revealing-ness, mid-range full-ness, treble lush-ness?

Preface - I haven't heard any of these speakers but I know the designer of the Statements and have used all of the drivers here except for those in the Sierra Towers. I think the Statements would hold their own and possibly be better overall than the other two.

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post #20 of 32 Old 02-21-2013, 07:39 AM
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why wouldn't you just go with the cornscala model d with hf140 driver and lth142 horn?

it fits your criteriea, the crossover work is already complete, and it is a great value.

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post #21 of 32 Old 02-21-2013, 10:08 AM
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why wouldn't you just go with the cornscala model d with hf140 driver and lth142 horn?

it fits your criteriea, the crossover work is already complete, and it is a great value.

thats what i have and im very happy with them. Marty has analysis paralysis with a dash of misconception.

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post #22 of 32 Old 02-22-2013, 11:40 AM
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there are only a very few drivers in the 1.4-1.5" range that can play the top end all the way down into the midrange and even fewer at a reasonable price.

the polars on the horn are really not bad at all. not quite constant directivity, but very smooth across their range.

if not for all the hype around the seos builds, we'd probably be discussing the crites model d quite a bit more.

one thing that i really like about the cornscala is that it is one of the few big, high sensitivity, full rangers left.

has anybody measured the woofer and/or the model d to your knowledge?

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post #23 of 32 Old 02-22-2013, 03:30 PM
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I never asked Bob if he measured them and I don't know of anyone else who has. The D style seems to be rare. I would be curios to know how it measures. They sound wonderful to me. Very even throughout with lots of detail. Not harsh at all. It's almost like they make you a more active listener.

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post #24 of 32 Old 02-23-2013, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I have decided on going with the Corn-Scala first, and will be ordering some of the parts this coming Monday. I will have to purchase these drivers in steps, as I do not have enough spare cash to get them all at once. Heck, I still haven't even decided on which particular drivers and horns I plan on using!

Brian hit the nail right on the head, I do indeed have analysis paralysis! I can't decide on which horns to use for the mid-range and highs, or which CD;s to use for them either. I have spoken with Dave Harris and he recommends the CT125 with its stock horn, then for the mid-range the B&C DE85 with his Eliptrack 400 horns, then using 4 Dayton Pro-10's for the woofers with an ALK crossover. That would be a pretty expensive build right there, and I am hesitant because everyone says that the Eliptrack 400 horn is possibly over priced and that the B&C DE85 is also overpriced. Do you guys have any CD suggestions for the mid-range driver that are in the $500 and below price range? If I go with a really expensive mid-range CD, then I will have to go with a cheaper mid-range horn, something under $300 ea. Any suggestions on these?
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post #25 of 32 Old 02-23-2013, 06:21 AM
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You really need to re evaluate your stance on two ways. Just because you didn't like the two ways you heard, does not mean they are all like that. That's like saying bank robbers wear ski masks, so everyone that wears a ski mask is a bank robber.

This Faital Pro compression driver is really good. It's been compared to similar TAD drivers and tested down to 400 hz at 105 db with less than 2% distortion. Extremely detailed highs without being harsh at all.

A two way with this driver and 4 10's would be cool. Although I'm not sure of any real benifit the 10's woul have as the output from the single 15 is pretty massive.

Not saying the 3 way won't sound good. I just believe there's benefits to a 2 way especially when the horn goes down as low as this one.

I've never heard a 3 way Cornscala, but I prefer the sound of my 2 ways to my old La Scalas. Bob Crites has said he prefers the 2 ways.

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post #26 of 32 Old 02-23-2013, 07:07 AM
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I know your looking to make these and a pair of "hifi" speakers, but make these first. You may find, as i have, that they can fill both duties

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post #27 of 32 Old 02-24-2013, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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You really need to re evaluate your stance on two ways. Just because you didn't like the two ways you heard, does not mean they are all like that. That's like saying bank robbers wear ski masks, so everyone that wears a ski mask is a bank robber.

This Faital Pro compression driver is really good. It's been compared to similar TAD drivers and tested down to 400 hz at 105 db with less than 2% distortion. Extremely detailed highs without being harsh at all.

A two way with this driver and 4 10's would be cool. Although I'm not sure of any real benifit the 10's woul have as the output from the single 15 is pretty massive.

Not saying the 3 way won't sound good. I just believe there's benefits to a 2 way especially when the horn goes down as low as this one.

I've never heard a 3 way Cornscala, but I prefer the sound of my 2 ways to my old La Scalas. Bob Crites has said he prefers the 2 ways.

Brian, you might possibly be right as far as 3-ways versus 2-ways. I have heard lots of great 2-ways and 3-ways, but I must admit that I have not heard very many 3-way high efficiency speakers. Does a speaker with a dedicated mid-range driver not have a fuller, punchier, more lush sound to it, especially in the treble range?

What are you running in your theater? How do your speakers compare to the La Scalas that you mentioned, in your opinion? Which Fatial Pro compression driver are you referring to in the second line of the above post?

I will attempt to be open minded and hear you out on this 2-way thing! biggrin.gif
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post #28 of 32 Old 02-24-2013, 08:35 AM
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Does a speaker with a dedicated mid-range driver not have a fuller, punchier, more lush sound to it, especially in the treble range?

Nope, they do not. There isn't a different sound inherent to a 3-way. In fact anyone running subs is using what I would call modern 3-way. The way a 3way hifi retail speaker with dome tweeter and 4" mids and 6" woofers sounds has nothing to do with how a 2-way horn with 15" pro woofer sounds. IMO 3way horns with a super tweeter above has no place in modern designs. It was used back in the day because the technology wasn't there to run a CD from 1khz and up and a woofer from 1000khz and down. The only case to design to this paradigm today is nostalgia.

Now we have 1" CDs that can play down to 800hz. We have 12" and 15" woofers that can play up to 1200hz and beyond. There are also coax CDs with 1.4/1.5" exits that play from 500hz to 20khz. Horns are also more advanced with designs like the SEOS, H290C, JBLs, QSCs, Geddes, etc.

Remember, with a sub you are getting a 3-way. Horn covering ~1khz and up, pro woofer covering 1khz down to ~40-80hz and the sub covering 80-120hz and below. With modern drivers and horns this is a far better approach. Of course there are potential improvements on this with using an MTM of high efficiency 6" side by side mids and a higher excursion 15" pro woofer running active or active hybrid. This would probably double or triple the price and the improvement would be small. For the price and footprint I don't see a way to trump the the 2-way horn pro driver configs like the SEOS or Pi speakers (not including Synergy clones because the complexity is a few orders of magnitude greater).

With all that said, assuming the Cornscalas have we'll implemented crossovers they should be good speakers. I would opt for the D version myself, but I don't see any measurements or crossover details. I would want that information. It is probably out there but I haven't looked.
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post #29 of 32 Old 02-24-2013, 12:51 PM
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The Faital pro drivers I'm referring to are the ones Bob uses in his D style Cornscala plans.

My speakers are the ones in my avatar. Style D Cornscalas. They are the 1.4" Tractrix ones. I wanted something with a little more dispersion.

As far as how they compare to my La Scalas, they are much more balanced and smooth. The top end is more airy and natural. The La Scala could be harsh, the Cornscala not at all. And of course the Cornscala can play bass much lower. It's a truly full range speaker. With full range output. The La Scala always needed a sub, even with music.

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post #30 of 32 Old 02-26-2013, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Brian, where are you located? It would be nice if we could get together and compare my Corn-Scala, (Style C), to your Corn-Scala, (Style D). I have no idea what part of the country you live in, but this would be really fun!
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