GJALLARHORN vs Little Wrecker - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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So I have been waiting for the UXL18 to come back into stock and I was going to build a small sealed box for it until we move and then I was going to build a GJALLARHORN with it, but I have been wondering how the Littlewrecker would compare to it? It seems the both dig pretty deep for a horn, but the Littlewrecker takes up less floor space and can be built for cheaper.

I am curious on everyone's thoughts as how these two compare and what are the pros and cons of both of them.

Thanks
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post #2 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozziedog View Post

So I have been waiting for the UXL18 to come back into stock and I was going to build a small sealed box for it until we move and then I was going to build a GJALLARHORN with it, but I have been wondering how the Littlewrecker would compare to it? It seems the both dig pretty deep for a horn, but the Littlewrecker takes up less floor space and can be built for cheaper.

I am curious on everyone's thoughts as how these two compare and what are the pros and cons of both of them.

Thanks

Both great designs!

The advantage of the GJALLARHORN is that it is using a high BL driver with tons of excursion and power handling on tap...not to mention more displacement in an 18.

The Lil' Wrecker is great, but with a 15" mid-range driver you just can't expect to defy the laws of physics. They can both plumb the depths but the GJH can do it with much more authority.

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post #3 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 08:01 PM
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at the first excursion limited point above tuning, which is around 25hz or so, the gjallerhorn appears to have 8-10db more spl capability than the wrecker.

perhaps there are other advantages to horns (such as upper bass sensitivity), but two dayton 18" drivers in a 20 cubic foot ported cab tuned to 17hz is 1 db less sensitive at 30hz and has about 5db more spl capability in the 25hz region.

the ported can also be broken into two units for easier handling and better placement. the porteds can also follow many different form factors.

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post #4 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 08:25 PM
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it looks like the dayton 18" will pretty much work in the lilwrecker and give about 4db more max spl in that 25hz region (using 20mm xmax for the dayton and 17.5mm for the cvx). lilmike would have to take a look in order to see if it is "close enough" to call it good and the driver may or may not fit physically.

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post #5 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 09:10 PM
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You're forgetting at least two other designs, the HouseWrecker and... um... (points to sig) biggrin.gif

I believe there's also a dual Alpine type R horn around here somewhere that should be plenty mean itself, SPL wise.

There are advantages and disadvantages to all of them. I won't speak for any design but my own. Within Xmax, 350W into the box, it will do 116dB at 20Hz, 1M, in half space. Let it pass Xmax and explore the drivers' mechanical limits at 600W in, it'll do a little over 118dB. It's designed to get the most out of a single EP4000... one of those amps can power four of these boxes to the 117dB @1M half space level each. I can't even imagine what that would do to most rooms with quarter or eighth space loading. One can be done around the $500 mark.

Disadvantages? I compromised the horn flare to get it to fit in three sheets of stock before bracing, therefore it loses some sensitivity in the middle of the passband. Uses 10" drivers... you can only get so much from a pair of drivers that size, and I believe I didn't leave a lot on the table. And it's big... no getting around that with a 16Hz horn of any kind. That said, I made it as flat as I could to make up for the size in the other two dimensions.

Anyway, that's what I bring to the table, until I win the lottery and I can start moving forward with some of the more potent stuff I've been playing with in Hornresp.
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post #6 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

it looks like the dayton 18" will pretty much work in the lilwrecker and give about 4db more max spl in that 25hz region (using 20mm xmax for the dayton and 17.5mm for the cvx). lilmike would have to take a look in order to see if it is "close enough" to call it good and the driver may or may not fit physically.

There is not enough room on the baffle for an 18" in the Lilwrecker. A 15'" is pretty tight.
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post #7 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 09:48 PM
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Different tools for different jobs.

There are an infinite number of ways to make bass.

Josh and I both looked at Danley's TH50 for inspiration after we experienced them, Josh came up with the Gjallarhorn, I conjured up the MicroWrecker.

The LilWrecker? As I said in the intro to that thread, the design goals were the most extension and SPL I could get with the space that radman12 had behind his screen wall and a couple fifteens fed 1000 watts each. That's all.

What's better? Well, that really depends on what the goals are, now doesn't it.

Sure, a WRX will kill my Jeep in a 0-60 run. (Had both, know what each can do) So - take that WRX to the trails, and try that 0-60 again...

My WRX could do things my Jeep can't, my Jeep can do things the WRX couldn't, and my F-250? It can do things that neither could.

What is your goal? LilWrecker = cheap extension and SPL. Gjallarhorn? All you can get from an 18, period.

The Gjallarhorn? Not aware of another DIY cabinet that goes as loud with a single driver, period.

The LilWrecker? Not aware of another DIY cabinet that does what it does with a $250 driver.

Both have their compromises...which compromises best fit your situation?
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post #8 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

it looks like the dayton 18" will pretty much work in the lilwrecker and give about 4db more max spl in that 25hz region (using 20mm xmax for the dayton and 17.5mm for the cvx). lilmike would have to take a look in order to see if it is "close enough" to call it good and the driver may or may not fit physically.

More to it than physically fitting into the cabinet.

Like I said in the LilWrecker thread, the LilWrecker is too small for an 18, and of the 18s out there, the Dayton lacks adequate motor force/cone area to really do anything in a tapped horn.
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post #9 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 10:12 PM
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"of the 18s out there, the Dayton lacks adequate motor force/cone area to really do anything in a tapped horn."

i just plopped the dayton specs into the little wrecker hornresp file and it seemed like it might be close enough. if it doesn't fit physically, that rules it out.

here is what i was looking at:
(dark is dayton)



seemed like the dayton showed promise, so i tweeked the horn path a little and got this:



the frequency response looks pretty good to my eye. is there something more about the motor that would render the driver unacceptable for use in tapped horns?

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post #10 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozziedog View Post

So I have been waiting for the UXL18 to come back into stock and I was going to build a small sealed box for it until we move and then I was going to build a GJALLARHORN with it, but I have been wondering how the Littlewrecker would compare to it? It seems the both dig pretty deep for a horn, but the Littlewrecker takes up less floor space and can be built for cheaper.

I am curious on everyone's thoughts as how these two compare and what are the pros and cons of both of them.

Thanks

In a nutshell? In actual use, from 0 dB to 120 dB, with a typical music or movie playback, they are essentially equal. The LilWrecker goes a bit deeper, the Gjallarhorn gets a lot louder.

In my measurements, the LilWrecker measured -3 dB at ~15 Hz and -10 at at 13 Hz.

According to the data at Data-bass, the Gjallarhorn measured -3 dB at 21 and -10 at 15 Hz.

The LilWrecker is larger than the Gjallarhorn, and uses a much less expensive driver.

So - you wanna get louder than 120 dB? Well, the LilWrecker would make smoke and bad noises if you tried to go for more, the Gjallarhorn would keep cranking for nearly 10 more dBs.

Distortion? Well, the LMS-U is a FAR better driver than the CVX..... it is really not even a contest.
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post #11 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"of the 18s out there, the Dayton lacks adequate motor force/cone area to really do anything in a tapped horn."

i just plopped the dayton specs into the little wrecker hornresp file and it seemed like it might be close enough. if it doesn't fit physically, that rules it out.

here is what i was looking at:
(dark is dayton)



seemed like the dayton showed promise, so i tweeked the horn path a little and got this:



the frequency response looks pretty good to my eye. is there something more about the motor that would render the driver unacceptable for use in tapped horns?

My experience suggests that the BL^2/Re/Sd ratio for the Dayton 18 is too low to use the driver in a tapped horn.

Need more power for the cone area to make the driver effective. Take that motor and strap a 15" cone to it, there might be something to work with.

Also - with an S3 (the choke-point) of only 315 CM^2, the Dayton is having to work against a compression ratio of 3.7:1, which is considerably higher than my experience has led me to take a 15, let alone an 18.

I only share the ones that work...the rest make the shop warm....
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post #12 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

In a nutshell? In actual use, from 0 dB to 120 dB, with a typical music or movie playback, they are essentially equal. The LilWrecker goes a bit deeper, the Gjallarhorn gets a lot louder.

In my measurements, the LilWrecker measured -3 dB at ~15 Hz and -10 at at 13 Hz.

According to the data at Data-bass, the Gjallarhorn measured -3 dB at 21 and -10 at 15 Hz.

The LilWrecker is larger than the Gjallarhorn, and uses a much less expensive driver.

So - you wanna get louder than 120 dB? Well, the LilWrecker would make smoke and bad noises if you tried to go for more, the Gjallarhorn would keep cranking for nearly 10 more dBs.

Distortion? Well, the LMS-U is a FAR better driver than the CVX..... it is really not even a contest.

I wonder how the LMS-R would work in there. You said its a possible good match. I'n my case, I'd only want to build with the best available. the CVX is fine and all but the LMS-R should be a fairly big step up. I've had the cvx, good enough sub but nothing to write home about, I've not seen the LMS-R though, only the 18" LMS-U.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #13 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 11:04 PM
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"My experience suggests that the BL^2/Re/Sd ratio for the Dayton 18 is too low to use the driver in a tapped horn."

if i did the calc right, the dayton 18" has a 0.1203 ratio while the 15" in the danley th50 clocks in at 0.1245, for a 3.5% difference. that is within t/s spec measurement error.

what ratio do you consider minimally acceptable?

it would seem to me that the ratio would depend in part on how much multiplier effect was at work in the horn.

the only reason that i mention the dayton is that it is a pretty low cost driver of decent quality and good volume displaced. that first excursion limited point around 25hz is pretty much volume displacement limited.

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post #14 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 11:16 PM
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"I wonder how the LMS-R would work in there."

looks good if it fits. ratio is 0.133.



123db in the 25hz dip places it right in between the 118db lilwrecker and 128db gjallarhorn.


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post #15 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"My experience suggests that the BL^2/Re/Sd ratio for the Dayton 18 is too low to use the driver in a tapped horn."

if i did the calc right, the dayton 18" has a 0.1203 ratio while the 15" in the danley th50 clocks in at 0.1245, for a 3.5% difference. that is within t/s spec measurement error.

what ratio do you consider minimally acceptable?

it would seem to me that the ratio would depend in part on how much multiplier effect was at work in the horn.

the only reason that i mention the dayton is that it is a pretty low cost driver of decent quality and good volume displaced. that first excursion limited point around 25hz is pretty much volume displacement limited.

Interesting.

When I look at the PE datasheet and run the numbers, I get 20.4^2/3.9/1164 = .0917, which is about 1/2 of what I like to use. I like to see this ratio between 0.15 and 0.20, depending on the cone size.

We looking at the same driver??

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-472

Sure, the model suggests that it may work, but will it work well??

My experience says not likely. I have a garage full of drivers that don't work so well in tapped horns...
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post #16 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 11:34 PM
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"We looking at the same driver??"

somehow we both managed to screw that one up.

i had the wrong bl, you have the wrong re. :-)

20.4^2/3.41/1164 = 0.105

i'm still kind of wondering if that ratio should somehow be scaled by the size of the horn. seems like a lower ratio worked ok in the th50, but that one didn't have a very high compression ratio and didn't have a huge mouth to sd ratio if that means anything.

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post #17 of 78 Old 02-16-2013, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"We looking at the same driver??"

somehow we both managed to screw that one up.

i had the wrong bl, you have the wrong re. :-)

20.4^2/3.41/1164 = 0.105

Imagine that...

Qms is not the same as Re... Past my bedtime, that or too many beers...or both...

Still - it is a bit light in the motor. I would really like to see a BL of 25.
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post #18 of 78 Old 02-17-2013, 04:19 AM
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I just think of the Lilwrecker as a home sub and the Gjallarhorn as an outdoor sub. But outdoor sub can mean huge warehouse also. biggrin.gif I am building the Gjallarhorn for an outdoor setup. But I will be looking at building the other Horns also because I really want to try the Lilwrecker and micro.
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post #19 of 78 Old 02-17-2013, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

I like to see this ratio between 0.15 and 0.20, depending on the cone size.

I'm at that point these days too. Here's what happens to reactance in Wolfhorn SDX when I go from the SDX10 (0.12) to the TC Epic 10 (around 0.18). SDX:



Epic:

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post #20 of 78 Old 02-17-2013, 08:48 AM
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Mike just about summed it up...Different goals.
You can build 2 or 3 of his subs for the price of one GH with a UXL or 5400. They take up more space but if you have it...Or if a GH is too much money to begin with as it is for many...I am really only designing the horns I do for myself and as exercises in pushing the envelope. I design the cabs I want. I don't really give thought about anyone else using them while I am doing it. If later on someone wants to that is fine but that is not my goal. I thought about doing a sort of community horn long ago that was much simpler/ cheaper/ easier to build, but Mike already has several plans out there that cover that well (Not to mention Bills plans) and he helps other guys with designs for their particular space too. No need to muddy the waters with what would probably end up being similar designs when Mike has already done the work. I will stick with my absurd but very fun projects of which I have more than a few in various stages of progress.smile.gif
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post #21 of 78 Old 02-17-2013, 09:43 AM
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So, what is the final verdict on the LMS-R in the Lil' Wrecker?

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post #22 of 78 Old 02-17-2013, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the clarification guys, and no matter which one I build I am pretty sure we all want both of you to continue with your projects.
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post #23 of 78 Old 02-17-2013, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
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I believe there's also a dual Alpine type R horn around here somewhere that should be plenty mean itself, SPL wise.

I would like to see that design. Any clue where it might be found?

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post #24 of 78 Old 02-17-2013, 10:28 AM
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post #25 of 78 Old 02-17-2013, 10:36 AM
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If you have over $400 burning a hole in your pocket, and you're willing to wait till June when they are back in stock, the LMS-R 15 will work fine.

Realistically - it gains you about 5 dBs over the CVX (or about 7 over the Alpine Type S 15). Runs out of excursion in-band at 2 KW (not the linear limit - the clank limit), and models at about 125 dB at that point.
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post #26 of 78 Old 02-17-2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

If you have over $400 burning a hole in your pocket, and you're willing to wait till June when they are back in stock, the LMS-R 15 will work fine.

Realistically - it gains you about 5 dBs over the CVX (or about 7 over the Alpine Type S 15). Runs out of excursion in-band at 2 KW (not the linear limit - the clank limit), and models at about 125 dB at that point.

Thanks for clarifying Mike!
That's a significant advantage.

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post #27 of 78 Old 02-18-2013, 02:54 AM
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Just to make sure I understand this how would four Lilwreckers with Alipne S 15's do in comparison to a pair of Ghorns?

For me the Ghorn is $400 cheaper than the four Lilwreckers but I dont know what the Alpines can do. I know the UXL's can do well in a normal nonhorned subwoofer and I would take them over the Alpine's in a normal sub. But that being said on paper maybe the wreckers over more SPL maybe not.
2 Ghorns = $2200
2 LilWreckers = $1300
4 LilWreckers = $2600

I am leaning towards the Ghorns still but wanted to know if I am missing something. Space is not an issue because I will be using these outside. My estimates are also using four sheets of 18mm for the LilWreckers each. If I need five then add another $200 to the pair of wreckers and now the Ghorn looks a lot better for me. Woos here in OZ is by far the most expensive thing I have to buy for projects. The speakers are relatively cheap and inexpensive. 18mm PLY is 120 a sheet.
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post #28 of 78 Old 02-18-2013, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Just to make sure I understand this how would four Lilwreckers with Alipne S 15's do in comparison to a pair of Ghorns?

For me the Ghorn is $400 cheaper than the four Lilwreckers but I dont know what the Alpines can do. I know the UXL's can do well in a normal nonhorned subwoofer and I would take them over the Alpine's in a normal sub. But that being said on paper maybe the wreckers over more SPL maybe not.
2 Ghorns = $2200
2 LilWreckers = $1300
4 LilWreckers = $2600

I am leaning towards the Ghorns still but wanted to know if I am missing something. Space is not an issue because I will be using these outside. My estimates are also using four sheets of 18mm for the LilWreckers each. If I need five then add another $200 to the pair of wreckers and now the Ghorn looks a lot better for me. Woos here in OZ is by far the most expensive thing I have to buy for projects. The speakers are relatively cheap and inexpensive. 18mm PLY is 120 a sheet.

Assuming you have enough power to get them there (2 KW), the four would get you to just over 130 dB above 17 Hz in simulation-land.
Real world? compression might take a dB or two.

Don't have a G-horn model in Hornresp, but looking at Josh's measurements (assumed to be 1M) and adding 6 dB, the wreckers have a slight edge until about 25 Hz, then it is a horse race. If Josh measured at 2M, the Gjallarhorns would be louder above 21 Hz.

Close.

If you're worried about buying the wood, the MicroWrecker can be built out of less than 3 sheets. The Micro and the G-horn are a lot closer in performance, it is just that the CVX runs into limits a LOT sooner than the LMS-U. So - make 4. Loaded with the Type S, you're looking at 133 dB predicted above 23 Hz.

Your neighbors will love you.
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post #29 of 78 Old 02-19-2013, 02:03 AM
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Did you start the Micro thread yet? Or can you email me the plans? Up to you.
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post #30 of 78 Old 02-19-2013, 11:35 AM
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THREAD! THREAD! THREAD!....
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