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post #1 of 127 Old 02-16-2013, 11:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello all,

This thread will document my build of what I am calling La SEOS. La SEOS is a very respectful nod to Paul Klipsch and his La Scala loudspeaker.



For La SEOS I will be following a dimensioned drawing that I found on the web some time ago that describes the original La Scala cabinet circa 1977. For La SEOS I will be using a Crites CW1526 driver for the lower horn. The Crites CW1526 is a well known and popular replacement driver for authentic La Scala loudspeakers.

For the top above 700Hz I will be using a SEOS 18 inch waveguide loaded with an ALTEC/GPA 902 compression driver. Eventually I will design passive crossovers for the La SEOS, however the prototypes will be initially using active crossovers.

I've already started the build and will be uploading PICs soon. I do not know the origin of the attached drawings. If anyone here does know please PM me so that I might give them credit for their contribution.

I've just bought Bill Waslo's OmniMIC measurement kit. I will be using this project to familiarize myself with his fine product. I look forward to this. It should be fun!
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff





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post #2 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 12:31 AM
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cool.

they have a relatively high corner by today's standards, but you know what you are doing.

i look forward to following this one for sure.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #3 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 04:08 AM
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Are you keeping the bass bin original or porting?
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post #4 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 04:41 AM
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What a cool idea! A completely horn loaded SEOS speaker.

The La Scala is a large speaker with a high corner but crossed at 60 or 80, the dynamics are awesome!

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post #5 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 05:16 AM
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This is a fantastic idea. Bravo. I cannot wait to see the finished product.

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post #6 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 06:18 AM
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This is an awesome idea! Hey Carl, are you going to be using this in a 2-way configuration? The original La Scala used a mid horn and tweeter horn with a horn loaded bass driver. I have heard great things about the CW1526cw, but, if it were me, I would go with a more capable woofer. There are some threads on klipsch forum that talk about a replacement La Scala woofer that is quite a bit better than both the K-33 and the CW1526cw,, but I am not sure what the brand and model of that particular driver. Have you considered the idea of building a Corn-Scala in leu of a La Scala? You could possibly use the Seos waveguides in a Corn-Scala and take advantage of the lower bass response and have an easier time with the cabinet. I will definitely be following this thread closely!
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post #7 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 06:41 AM
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La SEOS........that's awesome. biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

I'm excited to see your project finally coming together, it's sure to be something great.

If by some chance you want to try a SEOS-6, or any other size for a 3 way, just let me know.
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post #8 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 06:55 AM
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Awesome idea Carl! Sub'd and excited to see how it turns out. Seos is takin' over!
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post #9 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 09:09 AM
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now if we just had a SEOS design that would work in a Cornwall/Cornscala cabinet..........the SEOSwall. the CornSEOS. SEOSscala...................hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Imagine a AE TD15M with a SEOS 15/DNA-360. in about a 6.6ft^3 ported enclosure tuned in the low 30's..............

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post #10 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Are you keeping the bass bin original or porting?

My intent is to emulate the presentation and aesthetics of the classic La Scala as much as possible. I will be opening both ends of the dog house section to add the volume of the upper cabinet to the overall. The lower end of the dog house will be sealed off and for driver access only. I will add ports to the back side of the upper cabinet hoping to extend the usable response of the La SEOS to 40Hz or so.

By opening the top of the doghouse we can add the space in the upper cabinet in the overall cabinet volume. The cabinet volume overall becomes 5.75 cubic feet (approx).

Here are the T/S params for the Crites CW1526 stamped frame loudspeaker ( courtesy of Bob Crites)

FS is 26.3
Re is 3.40
VAS is 437.2 liters
BL is 11.63 Tm
QM is 9.19
QE is 0.36
QT is 0.35
Sensitivity is 95.3dB
Coil is 1 mH.
Max Pwr is 150 watts
Xmax is 7.15 mm
MMS is 87.5 grams
Cms is 0.420 mm/N

The CW1526 is an OEM driver from Eminence built to spec for Bob Crites. Priced at $255 US (shipped) the CW1526 is good value.

NOTE: Brian6745 corrected me stating that the described $255 US is for two drivers and not for one as I had noted. And he is correct!

Bob Crites answers his emails quickly and in my experience always interested in helping. http://www.critesspeakers.com/

Plugging the above T/S numbers into WinISD and using 5.75 cubic feet as volume and porting the cab at 30Hz you get a response that is 3dB down at 40Hz. Note that the WinISD PIC does not show the mid band gain that will be added by the horn that this cabinet is about.



I think many are much too quick to discount the La Scala, writing it off as being too old to be worthy of modern praise. It is my intent for La SEOS to debunk that mentality.

_______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #11 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post





The CW1526 is an OEM driver from Eminence built to spec for Bob Crites. Priced at $255 US (shipped) the CW1526 is good value.

i think that price is actually for TWO woofers

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post #12 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 10:03 AM
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This is cool, I'll definitely be watching this one.
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post #13 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Building the dog house ...

Building the La SEOS cabinet involves more skill than is required to pound together a simple box. You will need tools that can make accurate and repeatable cuts. I usually work alone (listening to music and taking many lounge chair breaks) in my garage workshop. I use a FESTOOL tracksaw and a folding table from Staples to cut 4 x 8 plywood to a size that I can easily handle on my cabinet saw. I use my cabinet saw to 'fine tune' the cuts that I make with my tracksaw. On larger pieces that don't fit on my cabinet saw I take a little extra time setting up the tracksaw to get the cuts as close to perfect as I can get.

You will also need to make yourself templates, fixtures and jigs to cut angles on many of the pieces. Here is a PIC of the fixture that I used to cut angles on my cabinet saw.



There is no particular magic or brilliance here on my part. I spent years Saturday mornings glued to the tube studying every move that Norm Abrams made on his New Yankee Workshop TV show. I was a big fan!

"Before we use any power tools, let's take a moment to talk about shop safety. Be sure to read, understand, and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools. Knowing how to use your power tools properly will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury. And remember this: there is no more important safety rule than to wear these — safety glasses." (Points to his ever present eye glasses)

Here is the template that I made from scrap lumber for my router to cut the opening in the motorboard. Note the use of 'pocket screws'. They work so well in this application





Next I drilled holes and pounded in the captive fasteners that will hold the driver in place. It was time for driver test fit!





With everything lining up as expected I put the driver back in it's shipping box and began assembly of the dog house



I used generous amounts of capenter's glue, clamped and brads waiting for the glue to dry. And here are the results ...



_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #14 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

i think that price is actually for TWO woofers

You are right! My typo. Thank you for catching that.
____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #15 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

... Hey Carl, are you going to be using this in a 2-way configuration? The original La Scala used a mid horn and tweeter horn with a horn loaded bass driver ...

The La SEOS is a 2 way design. My preliminary testing of the GPA 902 bolted to the SEOS 18 is that upper end is extended beyond that of the Klipsch product. But we shall see if that holds true in the finished cabinet.
_____________
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Carl Huff
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post #16 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Last Progress Report for this Weekend ...

Got the ramps installed that are at the horn's throat and attached the dog house top and bottom boards.



Lot's of carpenter's glue and liquid nails applied to guard against pressure leaks.



And finally, a mock up to test whether or not I am building this thing square. So far, I'm good.



______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #17 of 127 Old 02-17-2013, 05:27 PM
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Nice work Carl! It is for sure, as you said, not just slapping together a six sided box, and you're doing it well.
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post #18 of 127 Old 02-18-2013, 04:49 AM
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I wonder how this 2-way La Seos build will sound compared to a regular, stock, La Scala? It would be very interesting to hear the two being played right next to each other, and perhaps being able to a/b them! 3-way lLa-Scala versus 2-way La Seos! This thread is making me green with envy/! I am ordering the parts for my Corn-Scala and possible Statement build tomorrow afternoon. Keep on keeping on!
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post #19 of 127 Old 02-18-2013, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I wonder how this 2-way La Seos build will sound compared to a regular, stock, La Scala? It would be very interesting to hear the two being played right next to each other, and perhaps being able to a/b them! 3-way lLa-Scala versus 2-way La Seos! ...

That would be interesting! I am located Bakersfield, CA. If anyone reading this is within driving distance has an authentic pair of LaScalas and wants to do a 'side by side' comparison I'm game. Dynamics should be identical with slightly extended bass. The big difference would undoubtedly be the upper mid to top end.
_____________
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post #20 of 127 Old 02-18-2013, 09:32 AM
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i modeled this speaker up in hornresp back-of-the-envelope and it looks like k2 (the mountain, not the speaker). then i saw a measured frequency response confirming the model. we'll see...

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post #21 of 127 Old 02-18-2013, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i modeled this speaker up in hornresp back-of-the-envelope and it looks like k2 (the mountain, not the speaker). then i saw a measured frequency response confirming the model. we'll see...

Ha, ha ...

I am not surprised. If you are so inclined please work up something that you can share here. I'd like to see. What you are describing not only applies to La SEOS but to an authentic Klispch La Scala and probably Belle as well.

____________
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Carl Huff
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post #22 of 127 Old 02-18-2013, 10:54 PM
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ok, like i said, back of the envelope.

i just took a guess at the inputs for hornresp using the diagram in post 1.

i kept getting a big peak in the 150hz ballpark and thought i was just missing something.

poked around on the interwebs for a bit and found a measured scala in the center of a large room. that is the aqua line in the plot mess.

the black line 2 was my guesstimation. i wouldn't call it accurate, but it does predict a large peak and a fairly early rolloff.

the plots are on different scales, so i adjusted them so the frequencies all lined up as well as the vertical spacing for a db. then i just shifted the graphs so the level of the peak was the same, as this gives the best comparison.

as for black line 1, i tried to put a port on the larger cab and tune the thing to around 40hz. however, doing so kept giving me a peak at 50hz. i've not modeled a ported enclosure front loaded horn before, so i dont' know how close it is to actual results. with a standard ported cab, the peak should be right around the tuning frequency.

it is all quite a mess, which is why i didn't post it. but since you asked...


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post #23 of 127 Old 02-18-2013, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for posting that LTD02. You are right, that 150Hz peak is nasty. And it falls off faster that what I had expected at the top end as well. I am really curious how similar the Las SEOS will measure to what you have posted. Thanks!
_____________
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post #24 of 127 Old 02-19-2013, 02:15 AM
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Carl.

Epic.

 

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post #25 of 127 Old 02-19-2013, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Thank you for posting that LTD02. You are right, that 150Hz peak is nasty. And it falls off faster that what I had expected at the top end as well. I am really curious how similar the Las SEOS will measure to what you have posted. Thanks!
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff


When you guys talk about the peak at 150hz and the faster roll off on the top end, are you guys referring to a stock La Scala or the La Seos? I have never seen a La Scala measured....have any of you guys ever measured one? If so, how did it do? Is it possible to EQ a La Scala flat?


Carl, I am just curious as to what drove you to go with the Altec 902 over something like a Radian 950PB or a BMS 4592?
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post #26 of 127 Old 02-19-2013, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

When you guys talk about the peak at 150hz and the faster roll off on the top end, are you guys referring to a stock La Scala or the La Seos? I have never seen a La Scala measured....have any of you guys ever measured one? If so, how did it do? Is it possible to EQ a La Scala flat?

Carl, I am just curious as to what drove you to go with the Altec 902 over something like a Radian 950PB or a BMS 4592?

We are actually talking about both. The bottom half of the La SEOS is identical to the bottom half of the classic Klipsch La Scala. The 15 inch driver that I am using in the bottom of the La SEOS is a recommended replacement driver for the Klipsch La Scala. The comments that LTD02 is making applies to both the La SEOS and the Klipsch La Scala.

Is it possible to EQ a La Scala flat?

Yea, sure! And I will be doing that using modern DSP technology. But no matter how good the DSP tech is, the end results are always better when it is applied to well designed gear.

Why did I go with the Altec/GPA 902 over something like a Radian 950PB or a BMS 4592?

Well, first off the Radian 950PB and BMS 4592 are 2 inch CDs. The 18 inch SEOS waveguides that I have are intended for CDs with 1 inch throats. But mostly because I have a new pair of GPA 902s left over from a VOTT restoration and there really wasn't a good reason not to use them. Besides, this is a 'pseudo retro project'. Why not stay in the spirit and use retro parts??
____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #27 of 127 Old 02-19-2013, 09:57 AM
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marty, you are probably best served by a cornscala type of speaker. the eminence/crites driver requires a large enclosure but the driver has a very high compliance, so you should get both medium high sensitivity and full range extension without having to worry about big peaks and dips in the frequency response (at least until you put the speakers in a real room :-)).

carl, that little hump on the left side of the response can be introduced in hornresp by making the sealed part of the enclosure *smaller*. taking it down to just 1 cubic foot gives a peak that is kind of close to the measured peak and rolloff around 70hz. i'd say the model is a not too bad match for the measured result. maybe the measured on had the rear chamber stuffed with too much fiberglass such that it made the chamber appear smaller. who knows.

anyway, increasing the sealed cabin size to ~5.5 cubic feet moves that peak down to around 50hz. that is why even when i put a 40hz tuning on the cabinet, the frequency that was emphasized was 50hz.

what is interesting is that when a port is added to that chamber, it is that peak that gets emphasized not the tuning frequency of the port. i can put a 30hz port 50hz port or anything else on there and every time it is that peak that gets bumped up.


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post #28 of 127 Old 02-19-2013, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Hmm ...

Odd behavior. I will make a point to measure the lower cabinet 3 different ways:

#1) Configured as a classic La Scala (ie: doghouse blocked off top side)
#2) With the dog house open on the top side but no ports
#3) With the dog house open on the top side with 40Hz ports

Thank you for your contribution to this thread LTD02
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #29 of 127 Old 02-20-2013, 07:30 AM
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Is that CW1526cw Eminince woofer the best possible woofer for this unique design? I know that they are slightly expensive at like $265+ for a pair. With that being said, I would imagine that there is a much better driver out there somewhere that is more capable than the 1526 for similar or less, (or slightly more) money than the 1526. I see a lot of guys use that 1526 woofer in their Corn-Scala designs, but I have always guessed that for a Corn-Scala, there are probably better drivers out there somewhere.
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post #30 of 127 Old 02-20-2013, 07:37 AM
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Carl don't you have enough overly large speakers for your listening room smile.gif Interesting thread, subscribed.
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