Finally measuring time! 8 FTWs and 2 Mal 21s. Need help - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 12:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Alright here is a baseline graph after messing with audyssey. It really screwed things up so just messed with distance until came up with this one.
[URL=http://][/URL]

Where would you all start with this? Looks to me like I should lower 37hz by about 4-6db and then raise a few places below it.
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post #92 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 12:19 AM
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Can you knock down that 37hz peak by about 5db's?

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post #93 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 12:43 AM
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Are you not using some form of shelving filter below 30hz?

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post #94 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 01:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is what I came up with after about 10-15 changes starting at boosting 10,15,20,25,52hz and cutting 37hz.
[URL=http://][/URL]

Ended up boosting 10-+5db, 15-+7.5db, 20-+5db, 25-+5db, 37- -12db, 50-+12db with a Q of 1.5 at 50. This is way too much boost and cut for my liking but can reach over 140db with ease at listening position in the 25-50hz range with quite a few db to spare from the FP10ks and still need to hook up the last 2 21" mals.

This is a late Too Short track playing at reference+++++ at LP with a lot to spare out of the FP10ks and subs
[URL=http://][/URL]
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post #95 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 01:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Are you not using some form of shelving filter below 30hz?

Scott, Sorry but I have no idea what you are asking. I am using the peak EQ adjustment option on the minidsp since the sub EQ option doesnt allow me to adjust above 60hz. I have the bottom filter bypassed with the bypass button as well.
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post #96 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 01:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Can you knock down that 37hz peak by about 5db's?

lol, its now down a lot more than that! No way to keep it within 10dbs of the 50-60hz FR without severely cutting it while boosting 50-55hz the same amount.
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post #97 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 01:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll say this about measuring after a good 15+ hours. It sucks when the room really messes with a wide range. I have more than enough headroom for the boosts that I've had to apply unless want to watch a movie above 145db peaks so ended up acceptable even though I dont like it. I'll try just cutting FR while upping the input but dont think will get as good results. Its worth a try though!
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post #98 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 05:31 AM
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I realize it can be frustrating, but this will work out and it'll sound fantastic.

Can you either link to, or show an un-EQ'd response at the LP?

The comment above where you say you made 10-15 adjustments, kinda concerns me. You want to be methodical, and make some simple but effective steps. This will work out.

What Scott was referring to is sealed subs roll-off naturally, and require some boosting in the lower octaves to compensate for the big wavelengths fighting the smaller box. This EQ'ing is somewhat different in purpose than the "room" EQ'ing ... dealing with the constructive and destructive and standing waves.

I'm guessing with merely three bands of adjustment, you could get a decent response.

Perhaps at this point, I'd suggest you bring up the bottom end roll-off with your EQ, and then knock down a couple of peaks, you want to use as few filters as is nessesary. Then turn Audyssey loose, and see the result, .. you may be closer than you think.

BTW; what's your room's dimensions?

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post #99 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 12:55 PM
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holic, you are still -12db @ 10hz. Do you have a room-null there?

Assuming not and with that much displacement, 0db@10hz should be a reasonable goal.
I'd say solve that first and worry about the room dips afterward.

145db that's insane. Are you sure that's accurate?
I have yet to hit 130db-C on my CM-140 with 9 subs at the LP, most of the time it is around 117db-C.
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post #100 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 01:31 PM
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I have found that lately that most cheap SPL meters (Under $200) are not very accurate in the base region. I prfere to measure SPL in REW after it has been correctly calibrated in a frequency where the SPL meter is known to be be reasonably accurate.

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post #101 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 01:48 PM
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holic has 1100sq inches more cone surface than I have (a 33% increase).

I use mostly 18's, and most of them don't have anywhere near as much excursion either. So I only have the equivalent of 4 21's worth of displacement for ULF.

So that could explain why he could hit numbers that my system could only dream of.
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post #102 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I realize it can be frustrating, but this will work out and it'll sound fantastic.

Can you either link to, or show an un-EQ'd response at the LP?

The comment above where you say you made 10-15 adjustments, kinda concerns me. You want to be methodical, and make some simple but effective steps. This will work out.

What Scott was referring to is sealed subs roll-off naturally, and require some boosting in the lower octaves to compensate for the big wavelengths fighting the smaller box. This EQ'ing is somewhat different in purpose than the "room" EQ'ing ... dealing with the constructive and destructive and standing waves.

I'm guessing with merely three bands of adjustment, you could get a decent response.

Perhaps at this point, I'd suggest you bring up the bottom end roll-off with your EQ, and then knock down a couple of peaks, you want to use as few filters as is nessesary. Then turn Audyssey loose, and see the result, .. you may be closer than you think.

BTW; what's your room's dimensions?

The graph in post 91 is without EQ.

Yeah I started off barely boosting down low from 10hz up to 30hz while cutting 37hz and boosting between 50-53hz until I stuck with 50hz. By the time I had finished the cut at 37 and boost at 50 were equal opposites.

Bring up the bottom more? I already am boosting 10, 15, 20, 25, all by at least 5db and 15by 7.5db.

When I use audyssey it cuts from 30-50+hz by its max. Guessing -12db. It may do better now than it did before EQ. Will try and see.

Room is 30'x18' measuring from baffle wall. 34x18 excluding baffle.
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post #103 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

holic, you are still -12db @ 10hz. Do you have a room-null there?

Assuming not and with that much displacement, 0db@10hz should be a reasonable goal.
I'd say solve that first and worry about the room dips afterward.

145db that's insane. Are you sure that's accurate?
I have yet to hit 130db-C on my CM-140 with 9 subs at the LP, most of the time it is around 117db-C.

Yeah the mic is calibrated and checks out with rat meter I've had for years. All my clothes are moving and feels just like 140+bd in a car does but better imaging by far.
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post #104 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Yeah the mic is calibrated and checks out with rat meter I've had for years. All my clothes are moving and feels just like 140+bd in a car does but better imaging by far.

Had to touch on the 10hz -30hz being down. From what I can tell its like I have a gigantic peak from 20-37hz and can't really bring it down to match the 10hz and 50-80hz range. It's like the 10-20hz range and 37-80hz range are where the baseline is at. I have cut 37hz by -12db and boosted 50hz +12db with minimal changes. It's like something will not let changes be made in these problematic areas and I'm guessing it has something to do with the room and sub placements. I have no idea and that's just a guess. Like I brought up how stiff my room is too. I would be willing to bet my room is not much different than measuring in concrete room. I just didn't want any squeaks and rattles.
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post #105 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 03:20 PM
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The response you're getting at the top of post #94 looks great! All it needs is a shelving filter below 30hz. Bam!

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #106 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 03:30 PM
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Yeah, the response isn't bad.

I'm thinking there's a few too many filters being used, but wth.

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post #107 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 04:27 PM
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Were you using that many filters before you started over? TBQH, I thought you had it right the first time. Don't know what you did differently this time around, but your first round of measurements seemed to hit it right on the head...

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post #108 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

The response you're getting at the top of post #94 looks great! All it needs is a shelving filter below 30hz. Bam!

What do you mean Scott? How do I go about doing that? I am using all 6 EQ peak points as follows

10hz. +5db
15hz. +7.5db
20hz. + 5db
25hz. +5db

37hz. -12db

50hz. +12db

Have filter at 10hz bypassed
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post #109 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Were you using that many filters before you started over? TBQH, I thought you had it right the first time. Don't know what you did differently this time around, but your first round of measurements seemed to hit it right on the head...

Yes I was using all 6 slots. The distortion tests looked great, I completely agree but the FR tests had large swings at 37 and 50 hz.
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post #110 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 04:54 PM
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You're using a MiniDSP 10x10 or something right?

There should be a PEQ mode for each filter. Just one of them should be set to a 'low shelf' filter set it ~30hz or so and give yourself 6-12dB boost of that. You probably won't need any of those PEQ's below 30hz if that works correctly. smile.gif

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post #111 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 08:20 PM
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do you have room in the back corners for a pair of massive corner bass traps to try to absorb much of the modal effects?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #112 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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do you have room in the back corners for a pair of massive corner bass traps to try to absorb much of the modal effects?

YES! I have about as much room as needed as the rear surrounds that go in the corners have not been framed up yet but speakers are called for near the ceiling so just the space of the speaker plus framing is all that would be needed as far as room needed goes. Dennis made the risers as traps if that makes any difference.
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post #113 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 11:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Have made a little progress and tried using Scotts idea of lowshelves with a little help.

[URL=http://][/URL]

Still sucking out down low around 10-15hz but getting there. Will continue pushing on though!
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post #114 of 128 Old 03-05-2013, 11:19 PM
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There you go!!!!!




How many dB is the shelf filter set for? Add more. biggrin.gif

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post #115 of 128 Old 03-06-2013, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

YES! I have about as much room as needed as the rear surrounds that go in the corners have not been framed up yet but speakers are called for near the ceiling so just the space of the speaker plus framing is all that would be needed as far as room needed goes. Dennis made the risers as traps if that makes any difference.


Similar to a studio, with flush mounted/soffited mains, any system with such flush mounted sources in the front wall, the need for rear wall attenuation/absorption is magnified.

We discussed this some time ago, but yes, ... you'll benefit a great deal from as much effective trapping as you can employ. Either huge traps in the corners, or both the corners and the rear wall. There's easily implemented measures to retain the precious spaciousness characteristics that many covet, if you wish.

It's almost impossible to possess too much bass damping. Wonderfully, the subjective effect of properly damped LF is so, so nice. The superbly delineated transients, the leading edge impact, and the overall bass clarity is fully exposed when the decay of the previous energy is properly disposed of.

When a nicely damped LF decay is combined with a properly executed time/phase alignment between the subs and mains, the clarity and resolution can be stunning. "Speed" is the primary adjective one encounters when exposed to such ideal time domain conditions.


Anyway, the response looks like it's getting pretty good, ... how do you think it sounds?

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post #116 of 128 Old 03-06-2013, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
How many dB is the shelf filter set for? Add more.

Yea yea!!! How much are you using right now? Are you seeing a lot more amplifier pull now that you have it in? I am starting on my dcx2496 with a LP@20hz starting with 5dB and measuring that tonight, I will then bring it up as I run sweeps to see what it gets me smile.gif I have all my mics now so I will be measuring like crazy over the next few nights

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post #117 of 128 Old 03-06-2013, 11:02 AM
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How much excursion do you have left after all that boost down low when running 0db 10-20hz sinewaves as input?
If you do have tonnes of amp headroom and excursion to spare... might as well maximize the use of it (like at least 85% or so). 15% safety margin.
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post #118 of 128 Old 03-06-2013, 11:06 AM
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^^^^^^^

Lol!!! At 95dB from 10hz and below with ten 21" subs I think he has plenty on tap, my friend.

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post #119 of 128 Old 03-06-2013, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
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^^^^^^^
Lol!!! At 95dB from 10hz and below with ten 21" subs I think he has plenty on tap, my friend.

I meant the full 16bit/24bit 0db digital input signal sinewaves, not the THX-certified in-room Reference SPL rating. wink.gif
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post #120 of 128 Old 03-06-2013, 12:03 PM
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Oh.... Yeah, that would be pretty loud with ten 21's.

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