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post #1 of 52 Old 02-20-2013, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Have any of you used PWK Designs to come up with build specs for your speakers? He seems to be very knowledgeable when it comes to designing an enclosure to meet your needs. I do not have a lot of time to build multiple enclosures to see what one I like better, nor do I want to spend extra money on materials. I have 2 JBL W15GTI MKII subwoofers that I want to use in my home and I am tired of reading that sealed is better than ported or visa versa. I know that if I choose to go ported, it needs to be done right, otherwise it will sound completely horrible. His website is http://pwkdesigns.com/. If any of you have implemented one of his designs, please let me know what you thought of the outcome.

Thanks!
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post #2 of 52 Old 02-20-2013, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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This thread I started may not produce any responses. I'm going to go through with having Pete design me an enclosure. It's only $50 for the blueprint so I'm not losing out on much. I imagine it will take some time to get a design prepared. I will update with a build log and listening impressions later. I plan on building this in a few months.
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post #3 of 52 Old 02-20-2013, 06:24 PM
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I know Graham Perkins has a good tracking record designing HT subs.
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post #4 of 52 Old 02-20-2013, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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No offense to Graham, but WinISD does not take into account room gain and a person's listening preferences. He also limits his designs to sealed, ported, and passive radiator whereas PWK includes horn, transmission line, and bandpass as well. Maybe PWK is just hype as the only testimonials I have seen are on his page, but it seems like he has a pretty good business laid out. Also, he doesn't charge $100 for his plans. His blueprints are $50 and if you want a graph of the predicted room response, he includes that too for an extra charge. Perhaps PWK designs might be beneficial to this forum. I think you have to have some patience though because I think he keeps pretty busy and the turn around time might be at least a couple of weeks. I submitted an assessment form today. I'll let everyone know how long it takes to hear a response.
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post #5 of 52 Old 02-20-2013, 08:12 PM
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w15gti sealed in 4 cubic feet.

w15gti ported in 8 cubic feet tuned to 17hz.

room gain will depend on your room.

this takes about 20 seconds in winisd.


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post #6 of 52 Old 02-20-2013, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j1gold16 View Post

No offense to Graham, but WinISD does not take into account room gain and a person's listening preferences. He also limits his designs to sealed, ported, and passive radiator whereas PWK includes horn, transmission line, and bandpass as well. Maybe PWK is just hype as the only testimonials I have seen are on his page, but it seems like he has a pretty good business laid out. Also, he doesn't charge $100 for his plans. His blueprints are $50 and if you want a graph of the predicted room response, he includes that too for an extra charge. Perhaps PWK designs might be beneficial to this forum. I think you have to have some patience though because I think he keeps pretty busy and the turn around time might be at least a couple of weeks. I submitted an assessment form today. I'll let everyone know how long it takes to hear a response.

hornresp for anything winisd cant do.
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post #7 of 52 Old 02-20-2013, 09:51 PM
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Unless he is designing the passive crossover for a speaker as part of the assessment, you can do this for free in winisd like above.
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post #8 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j1gold16 View Post

His blueprints are $50... it seems like he has a pretty good business laid out...
Or not. I sell my plans for $14.95, with volume discounts that ultimately can reduce the price to $2.50 each, and these plans average 30 pages, each. I can afford to sell them at that price because I do a lot of volume. When I do one of a kind custom designs, mainly for manufacturers, my minimum price is $2,000, because it takes at least 50 hours to arrive at a custom design. IMO either PWK is selling in-stock designs as custom, for way more than they're worth, or he's doing custom designs for a dollar or two an hour.

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post #9 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j1gold16 View Post

No offense to Graham, but WinISD does not take into account room gain and a person's listening preferences. He also limits his designs to sealed, ported, and passive radiator whereas PWK includes horn, transmission line, and bandpass as well. Maybe PWK is just hype as the only testimonials I have seen are on his page, but it seems like he has a pretty good business laid out. Also, he doesn't charge $100 for his plans. His blueprints are $50 and if you want a graph of the predicted room response, he includes that too for an extra charge. Perhaps PWK designs might be beneficial to this forum. I think you have to have some patience though because I think he keeps pretty busy and the turn around time might be at least a couple of weeks. I submitted an assessment form today. I'll let everyone know how long it takes to hear a response.

Given your room dimensions, and intended sub location, creating a boundary/room gain simulation for a sub is fairly simple...
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post #10 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 09:12 AM
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"Given your room dimensions, and intended sub location, creating a boundary/room gain simulation for a sub is fairly simple..."

are you using this or something else?

l

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post #11 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 11:29 AM
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Jeff Bagby's boundary and diffraction simulator, which can be combined with the modeled box response in response modeler.
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post #12 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 11:40 AM
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Is that Geddes' equation there LTD02? Does he have a simplified version, I forget.
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post #13 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 11:50 AM
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Just to put a defence in for myself. I have not had one person complain about any of my designs and I don't just supply a 3D model. I go over what the person's requirements are first, then spend a good couple of hours designing it in 3D software. I then produce a full cutsheet which lists all the cuts and measurements. I then supply a full colour step by step instruction guide to put the sub together which is supplied in pdf format so they know the best way to do it. They can ask any questions they like and I even called a chap a couple of weeks ago from here in the UK who lives in the states and personally spoke to him to answer more questions. And you think all that is not worth at least $100. I usually spend between 4-8 hours on each design.

My designs are custom fit to what ever space they need to go in. I have also designed them to look like furniture in their rooms etc...

And no i don't design tapped horns purely because I would have to charge even more.

I think that is totally fair. I would love to sit at my computer all night and design subs for free. LOL
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post #14 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 01:20 PM
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jay, that is a simplified model that only considers first reflections and pressurization. modes will create larger peaks and dips than the software is showing. unfornately, the model region covers pretty much all of the subwoofer territory (except the very bottom end).

tux, that is from the welti/harman multisubs presentation. i was just going to be surprised if that guy was actually doing such calculations. :-)

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post #15 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 01:53 PM
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Is there a "for commercial use" version of winisd? I thought it was not for commercial use.
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post #16 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I thought it was not for commercial use.
I've never seen that mentioned. What would be uncool is to charge someone to simply do some modeling, providing them only with some charts.

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post #17 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 03:03 PM
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Just looked and it IS available for commercial use:

DISCLAIMER:
You can use this program for either personal or
commercial manner with no cost. Distribution of this
program is NOT allowed by anyone else than author(Juha
Hartikainen), so you can't include it to your company's
homepages, or any other media like CD-Rom, WITHOUT permission
of Juha Hartikainen.

As this program is provided freeware, I can't take any
responsibility about it. I don't take any responsibility
about program, or other files included here, if they cause
directly or indirectly harms to you or to your computer
equipment or anyone else. I don't take any responsibility
about data in driver database, use it at your own risk

You're right that would be uncool. But even if non-commercial use software is used in a small way to make money, I personally have a problem with it. Others may not.
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post #18 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

w15gti sealed in 4 cubic feet.

w15gti ported in 8 cubic feet tuned to 17hz.

room gain will depend on your room.

this takes about 20 seconds in winisd.

I did the same thing in Unibox yesterday arvo and got almost the same: 103l sealed and 220l at 18Hz ported (single driver/encl), but it would also need at least a second order HPF at 18Hz to control excursion below tune.
Took me about the same amount of time and 5 mins to sketch up a cabinet.
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post #19 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
I've never seen that mentioned. What would be uncool is to charge someone to simply do some modeling, providing them only with some charts.

This is very simple for someone to do themselves.
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post #20 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, thanks for all the replies. So you have all convinced me to save my $50. I do find it odd that he would be willing to put all that work in for $50 so my apologies for criticizing the $100 figure.

I have used WinISD and came up with 9.0 ft^3 ported @ 20hz and 4.6 ft^3 sealed. I really like ported, however, I only have about 6 ft^3 and I'm afraid of the woofer sounding too peaky. I can't go bigger as my girl will not allow it. I'm scared to go with a sealed design as I just got rid of a JL Audio W6 (for the car) in sealed box built using factory recommendations. I switched to 4 8's ported and it has all the sound quality the W6 had and a lot more oomph on the lower end. I'm thinking the box was too small for the W6. The JL Audio home subwoofers are sealed so maybe going this route with the 15" JBL's won't be such a bad idea. The JBL S120PII I have now is ported with what I believe to be a 3" flared port and it sounds fantastic, however, I know you can't just port any box and have it sound good as it is woofer dependent.

I hope that I'm not the only one completely nervous about doing their first DIY build. Crossing my fingers that this turns out well. I've built about 30 enclosures for vehicles all within factory specs. Some have sounded amazing and others sounded like complete garbage. The box with 4 8's I used WinISD for the first time but I used JL Audio W3's which don't take much to sound good. Home audio is a different animal and I want to do as much research as possible.

Thanks for the help!
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post #21 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 05:04 PM
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Is that 6cf for one driver or two? It's too small for 2 ported but OK sealed. Sealed you will need EQ, and ported you will need a high pass filter.

Two enclosures at different locations in the room will even out LF response, and some creative thought applied to the enclosure could minimise/reduce some appearance issues. For example, make 2 end tables, drivers facing down and the enclosure spaced off the floor on short legs.
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post #22 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j1gold16 View Post

Wow, thanks for all the replies. So you have all convinced me to save my $50. I do find it odd that he would be willing to put all that work in for $50 so my apologies for criticizing the $100 figure.

I have used WinISD and came up with 9.0 ft^3 ported @ 20hz and 4.6 ft^3 sealed. I really like ported, however, I only have about 6 ft^3 and I'm afraid of the woofer sounding too peaky. I can't go bigger as my girl will not allow it. I'm scared to go with a sealed design as I just got rid of a JL Audio W6 (for the car) in sealed box built using factory recommendations. I switched to 4 8's ported and it has all the sound quality the W6 had and a lot more oomph on the lower end. I'm thinking the box was too small for the W6. The JL Audio home subwoofers are sealed so maybe going this route with the 15" JBL's won't be such a bad idea. The JBL S120PII I have now is ported with what I believe to be a 3" flared port and it sounds fantastic, however, I know you can't just port any box and have it sound good as it is woofer dependent.

I hope that I'm not the only one completely nervous about doing their first DIY build. Crossing my fingers that this turns out well. I've built about 30 enclosures for vehicles all within factory specs. Some have sounded amazing and others sounded like complete garbage. The box with 4 8's I used WinISD for the first time but I used JL Audio W3's which don't take much to sound good. Home audio is a different animal and I want to do as much research as possible.

Thanks for the help!

Sure the woofer likes a bigger box, but there's nothing wrong with 6 ft3 tuned to 18hz

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post #23 of 52 Old 02-21-2013, 06:08 PM
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I had though about purchasing some plans from him. But after I got to looking it seems like what he calls a rear loaded horn or some other kind of weird made up name "ducted" is just ported enclosures. I just will stick with BFM's designs, if you want horns that aren't just a ported box. $50 is alot of money for ported box designs.
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post #24 of 52 Old 02-22-2013, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Is that 6cf for one driver or two? It's too small for 2 ported but OK sealed. Sealed you will need EQ, and ported you will need a high pass filter.

Two enclosures at different locations in the room will even out LF response, and some creative thought applied to the enclosure could minimise/reduce some appearance issues. For example, make 2 end tables, drivers facing down and the enclosure spaced off the floor on short legs.

I plan on doing two enclosures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I had though about purchasing some plans from him. But after I got to looking it seems like what he calls a rear loaded horn or some other kind of weird made up name "ducted" is just ported enclosures. I just will stick with BFM's designs, if you want horns that aren't just a ported box. $50 is alot of money for ported box designs.

Different woofers call for different enclosures. I mentioned PWK as he is able to compare a multitude of enclosures, not just sealed and ported. I have never heard a horn or tranmission line and I figure it's best to let someone who has experience make the determination of what might produce the sound I'm looking for based on the criteria I laid out, whether that be sealed, ported, bandpass, transmission line, horn, or passive radiator. Yes $50 is a lot of money to spend on a ported box design, or possibly sealed, but it's like an insurance policy to ensure that I get the best possible enclosure given certain size constraints.
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post #25 of 52 Old 02-22-2013, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j1gold16 View Post


Different woofers call for different enclosures. I mentioned PWK as he is able to compare a multitude of enclosures, not just sealed and ported. I have never heard a horn or tranmission line and I figure it's best to let someone who has experience make the determination of what might produce the sound I'm looking for based on the criteria I laid out, whether that be sealed, ported, bandpass, transmission line, horn, or passive radiator. Yes $50 is a lot of money to spend on a ported box design, or possibly sealed, but it's like an insurance policy to ensure that I get the best possible enclosure given certain size constraints.

Right diiferent woofers call for different enclosures. But what I was saying is the designs he calls Horns seem like some kind of hybrid transmission line/ported box. BFM has true horn designs, cheaper, and very easily to follow instructions. Hopefully he gets you a great design but more than likely he will call it some kind of rear horn ducted thingy when really its just a ported box. I've read from others in car audio that they thought they would get some kind of horn design and it turned out that its just a ported slot box.
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post #26 of 52 Old 02-22-2013, 08:46 AM
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Yes $50 is a lot of money to spend on a ported box design, or possibly sealed, but it's like an insurance policy to ensure that I get the best possible enclosure given certain size constraints.
He's using the same software that everyone else uses, so it's not like he will come up with something unique. But bottom line, no one can provide a true one of a kind custom enclosure design for $50 without doing some serious cutting of corners. Anyone who tried would starve. That means for your $50 you're getting a substandard custom design or you're paying way too much for a generic design that's being passed off as unique.

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post #27 of 52 Old 02-22-2013, 09:31 AM
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Is this design really considered a horn loaded enclosure? http://pwkdesigns.com/?page_id=305
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post #28 of 52 Old 02-22-2013, 09:42 AM
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Is this design really considered a horn loaded enclosure? http://pwkdesigns.com/?page_id=305
Yes, but not a very good one. Horns work best when you put a relatively small driver into a relatively large enclosure. This one has it the other way around. I doubt it works much better, if at all, than a reflex box of the same size. A well designed horn in a box that size would be loaded with an eight or ten. If you want to see an appropriate cab size for a horn loaded fifteen look at my THTs or Lilmike's F20.

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post #29 of 52 Old 02-22-2013, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Is this design really considered a horn loaded enclosure? http://pwkdesigns.com/?page_id=305

I would consider this a hybrid version of a horn suited for car audio use. Given the size limitations of vehicles, a traditional horn design would not be suitable.
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post #30 of 52 Old 02-22-2013, 09:51 AM
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Given the size limitations of vehicles, a traditional horn design would not be suitable.
Oh?

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