TMM AE TD 10x's with XR1464 horn and BMS 4594 CD - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 80 Old 01-09-2014, 06:59 AM
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Subjective impressions of sound?
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post #62 of 80 Old 01-10-2014, 05:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post

Subjective impressions of sound?

I want to note first that I am not completely finished with the active XO setup of these and have not completely EQ'd them just yet.

With the blend of the clean bass from the AE woofers and the very low distortion of the BMS 4594 they are very clean sounding and effortless speakers. They never sound harsh or distorted. With the XO point to the CD at 450hz it's amazing how much sound comes from the CD and only the bass is handled by the woofers. I have been very pleased with the sound that these are able to put out even when pushed to the limits of the amps. Even at normal listening levels they are able to play the smallest detail with utmost delicacy and then a moment later pound out a big explosion as well. With a 25hz high pass on the woofers I am getting inroom response down to about 20hz from these towers alone and they are able to play over 120db's.

The only issue that I still have is a hiss from the BMS 4594. Initially I used a dramatically over-sized Crown XTI2002 in order to use its built in DSP but it was much too noisy. Now with a MiniDSP and my ATI AT602 amp they are considerably quieter but still has a hiss that can be heard in a quiet room with nothing playing. Once a source is playing the hiss cannot be heard but it's still something that I'm working on.

Otherwise I'm ecstatic with this build and couldn't ask for more in a slim tower build.
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post #63 of 80 Old 01-10-2014, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by tsloms View Post


The only issue that I still have is a hiss from the BMS 4594. Initially I used a dramatically over-sized Crown XTI2002 in order to use its built in DSP but it was much too noisy. Now with a MiniDSP and my ATI AT602 amp they are considerably quieter but still has a hiss that can be heard in a quiet room with nothing playing. Once a source is playing the hiss cannot be heard but it's still something that I'm working on.

Are you using only the DSP to bring down the level of the BMS? You can make an L-pad to bring down the level passively which would bring down the level of the noise floor also. Glad you are happy with the results. smile.gif
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post #64 of 80 Old 01-10-2014, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Are you using only the DSP to bring down the level of the BMS? You can make an L-pad to bring down the level passively which would bring down the level of the noise floor also. Glad you are happy with the results. smile.gif

It could also be a gain structure issue. The ATI 602 has variable gain controls.
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post #65 of 80 Old 01-10-2014, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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So far I have the MiniDSP at normal output level. I am boosting or cutting the signal out of it. With the rca's disconnected completely from the amp much of the hiss is eliminated. I did add an lpad with resistors with a 10ohm shunt and 10ohm series resistor which should decrease output about 8db. I then have to increase the gain on the amp to compensate for the lose in output level. This brings the hiss back up slightly but not quite back to original levels. The lpad did help perhaps by 3db which shows that the amp is quieter with a higher gain level. I didn't have much time to tinker with it tonight but it appears that a quieter DSP would help me out. I'm out of town for the next week but I'll play with it next weekend.
I think I'll tinker with the levels in the minidsp and perhaps try a better power supply and/or ground it better. If that doesn't help then a quieter DSP will be necessary.
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post #66 of 80 Old 01-11-2014, 06:35 AM
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Can someone explain to me why you would need a passive Lpad instead of just turning down the HF level in the MiniDsp? Doesn't that do the same thing?
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post #67 of 80 Old 01-11-2014, 07:45 AM
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Tsloms, are you using an unbalanced or balanced MiniDSP? You would probably benefit from the higher output voltage of the balanced version assuming your preamp can supply an adequately high level (2Vrms).

What exactly is your signal chain? Extremely high sensitivity drivers like a CD in an active setup will expose any noise in the signal chain. Optimizing gain structure is vital and unless you know it is optimal you could be chasing your tail trying to find the noisy component.

Marty, the Lpad is a possible solution because it effectively eats power so the CD will basically function like a lower sensitivity driver. It is not the best way to do it but if all else fails it should work (or help).
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post #68 of 80 Old 01-11-2014, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Tsloms, are you using an unbalanced or balanced MiniDSP? You would probably benefit from the higher output voltage of the balanced version assuming your preamp can supply an adequately high level (2Vrms).

What exactly is your signal chain? Extremely high sensitivity drivers like a CD in an active setup will expose any noise in the signal chain. Optimizing gain structure is vital and unless you know it is optimal you could be chasing your tail trying to find the noisy component.

Marty, the Lpad is a possible solution because it effectively eats power so the CD will basically function like a lower sensitivity driver. It is not the best way to do it but if all else fails it should work (or help).
I currently have an unbalanced minidsp.
My entire signal chain is a Denon X4000 receiver feeding the minidsp via its RCA outputs which is handling the xo duties to the ati AT602 amp for the highs which feeds the factory BMS xo between the mid and highs.
From the minidsp also feeds an XTI4002 for the woofers.
If I disconnect the rca's from the at602 the hiss reduces in level by quite a bit so much of the hiss is from the minidsp. I can still reduce the level out of the minidsp and increase the attenuators on the amp to see if the hiss is reduced.
Just a note but I also have some hiss in the woofers. I have not disconnected the minidsp from the XTI yet to see if the hiss changes for the woofers yet.
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post #69 of 80 Old 01-11-2014, 10:55 AM
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Try turning the gain controls on the power amp to zero. If you still have hiss, it's time for quieter power amps.

If the hiss disappears with the power amp gain controls at zero, try increasing output of the mini-DSP and use the power amp input gain controls to set the output level. (assuming the mini-DSP doesn't clip).

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post #70 of 80 Old 01-11-2014, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post

Try turning the gain controls on the power amp to zero. If you still have hiss, it's time for quieter power amps.

If the hiss disappears with the power amp gain controls at zero, try increasing output of the mini-DSP and use the power amp input gain controls to set the output level. (assuming the mini-DSP doesn't clip).
When I first got the amp I did play with the gain. When it's all the way down the cd's are silent. I'll crank up the output level on the minidsp when I get a chance. In the minidsp I should be able to see when it is close to clipping correct?
I'm heading out of the country for work til next weekend as I type this. I'll try it out when I return.
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post #71 of 80 Old 01-11-2014, 11:36 AM
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Best SNR is usually achieved with higher gain earlier in the reproduction chain, reduced gain later...and it seems your power amps are GTG.
Someone else should answer the clipping question as I've never used a miniDSP.

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post #72 of 80 Old 06-03-2014, 07:08 PM
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Did you ever get the Hiss handled?

This has always been one of my favorite builds to this day. SO I am hoping everything is finalized now.
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post #73 of 80 Old 06-04-2014, 04:11 AM
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Are you still enjoying these 18Sounds XR1464 + BMS-4594 + (2) AE TD10X speakers? I wonder how they compare to the JTR Noesis 212's which basically use the same driver & horn models?

I really like this build, and plan to start my own today. If Erich has any Seos-24's then I will be ordering some today for mating with a Radian 951BePB and duel JBL-2226's, or, if he has any Seos-15's then I will build a Seos-15 + DNA-360 + JBL-2226 (x2).
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post #74 of 80 Old 06-04-2014, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Did you ever get the Hiss handled?

This has always been one of my favorite builds to this day. SO I am hoping everything is finalized now.

By using the ati at602 amp on the horns in conjunction with 12db attenuators on the amp inputs and 10db lpads on the outputs of the amps I was able to get the noise floor to be extremely low where it was necessary to place my ear next to the horn in order to hear any hiss. In hopes of getting rid of the input attentuators I also picked up a QSC DSP4 which I will be trying out in the next couple weeks.
I've been extremely swamped at work but I need to find time to iron out the xo settings as well. I ran out of nice weather last fall and couldn't finish the active xo settings. I plan on getting the speakers back outside to nail down the xo's. I will also need to completely finish the speakers with additional shellac and poly.
It is easy to hear the clarity in these fantastic drivers. Now to spend some additional time with them to get them nailed down.
Thanks for the compliments guys. I've never heard the 212's but they should sound similar with these possibly having slightly cleaner bass and playing much lower.
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post #75 of 80 Old 06-04-2014, 07:37 PM
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Always been interested in the DSP from QSC so I hope to hear good things.
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post #76 of 80 Old 06-05-2014, 03:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Always been interested in the DSP from QSC so I hope to hear good things.

I'll update this post once I use it. It has a pretty old school interface but it should have a lower noise floor than the balance MiniDSP. I sure hope so! biggrin.gif
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post #77 of 80 Old 06-05-2014, 03:59 AM
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Sorry if this was posted, but what we're the final dimensions of this build? Gorgeous speakers, wish I had the skill (and time, which is the bigger issue) to done same. Have been contemplating a Seos build with AA TD speakers. Either the 8s or 10s depending on size and possibly MTM as they would likely be sitting on top of subs.

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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post #78 of 80 Old 06-05-2014, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry if this was posted, but what we're the final dimensions of this build? Gorgeous speakers, wish I had the skill (and time, which is the bigger issue) to done same. Have been contemplating a Seos build with AA TD speakers. Either the 8s or 10s depending on size and possibly MTM as they would likely be sitting on top of subs.

The final dimensions for the speaker are 44" tall plus a couple inches for the outriggers and feet. It is 12" wide at the baffle and curves back to 6" wide at the rear of the cabinet.
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post #79 of 80 Old 06-05-2014, 06:54 AM
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Thanks, what is the depth?

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #80 of 80 Old 06-05-2014, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, what is the depth?

Sorry the depth is 16" overall and the port is tuned to 37hz. If you would like the AutoCAD files let me know and I can send them to you.
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