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post #31 of 56 Old 02-26-2013, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianjb View Post


The blind gtg really proves nothing about there being a difference in how "tight" each alignment sounds unless that gtg had two subs, one in each alignment, with the same driver, EQ'd to the same output level, in the same room, in the same exact position, with each listener in the same position.

We had 2 subs each for every sub(s) tested - check.

All sets of subs were eq'd using audyssey - check.

All sets of subs were calibrated to the exact same spl level compared to the speakers - check.

All sets of subs were in the same room - check.

All sets of subs were in the same spot - check.

Everyone had their same seat for each audition of each pair of subs - check.


Anything else?


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post #32 of 56 Old 02-26-2013, 04:50 PM
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Two of the subs (4 actually since all were done in pairs) were ported Captivators and sealed Captivators.


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post #33 of 56 Old 02-26-2013, 04:51 PM
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Also, many in the room were VERY confident just like you that they were going to be able to tell which subs were ported and which were sealed. Those same people were making fun of themselves by the 3rd or 4th sub because it became very obvious that no one had a clue.

djkest - sorry for the off topic!!


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post #34 of 56 Old 02-26-2013, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

*sigh* Do you post under the username Beeman as well? cool.gif

As a matter of fact, I am not. Do his subs sting like a bee, and are they ported or sealed? :P

The key is as Jay said, if the BR has a low tune, then there will likely be no audible difference. A tuning point of 25hz or higher would likely be audible IMO.

Anyhow, I am done with this topic in this thread. We hijacked this guys thread enough as it is.
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post #35 of 56 Old 02-27-2013, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys,
Nice little sidetrack. I don't want to jump into that argument just yet.

I'm hoping to make it home early today so I can turn the volume up a little without my wife complaining. Didn't even get to use it yesterday.

It's pretty cheap for this level of performance. I figure I've got about $325 into the subwoofer itself including all the miscelaneous items I used.

My co-worker just ridiculed me for making a sub while talking about how great a $1300 handbag is. Pretty stupid. Anyway-

This weekend I'll get out the router and make some headway on cleaning it up. I have a 3/4" roundover bit I've been itching to use. I could use it on the entire front face since it's so thick witout any worries. Maybe I'll chamfer the other edges, just for a little visual contrast. Might even get out the bondo if it gets warm enough. I may be the only one, but I rather enjoy using bondo.

I made a little "bass test" track list of some tracks with Bass. I shamelessly stole a lot of them from different threads here on AVS.

"Make Me Bad" - Korn
"Peel Me a Grape" - Dianna Krall
"1stp Klosur" - Linkin Park
"Breakin' a Sweat" - Skrillex
"Ghosts n Stuff" - Deadmau5
"FML" - Deadmau5
"Cold Cold Heart" - Norah Jones
"One" - Creed


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post #36 of 56 Old 02-27-2013, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

All sets of subs were eq'd using audyssey - check.

Sorry to continue the sidetrack, but a few important comments... While the comparison did confirm how much differences can be reduced when EQ is applied. It's important we don't forget this variable of Audyssey which I warned ahead of time and indeed did make for one of the biggest variables in listening. Specific enough measurements were not taken (just the average) to know exactly how big a factor Audyssey's resulting response played, but it most certainly played a dominant role. The best example was when we used the 2 sealed 2xMFW15 drivers with the single amp. Audyssey delivered an audibly smoother result with different resulting levels and response. It wasn't the strongest performer and was at a lower playback level over important ranges, but the calibration differences were clearly audible.

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post #37 of 56 Old 02-27-2013, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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It certainly can be said that while Audessey is useful, it isn't perfect, and is just a tool that can be used to generally improve performance quickly and easily. But it can't do everything, and isn't really a substitute for complete and total calibration and equalization. Which is involved, time consuming, and can be expensive.


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post #38 of 56 Old 02-27-2013, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

It certainly can be said that while Audessey is useful, it isn't perfect, and is just a tool that can be used to generally improve performance quickly and easily. But it can't do everything, and isn't really a substitute for complete and total calibration and equalization. Which is involved, time consuming, and can be expensive.

And to be clear, the reason for higher degrees of variation than might have otherwise occurred was the use of 2 subwoofer outputs with XT32 vs. a single. The results with the case where we used/calibrated only 1 sub output was much more as expected and would have likely had a lesser degree of variation, but would still vary for each product and run of Audyssey.

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post #39 of 56 Old 02-27-2013, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

I made a little "bass test" track list of some tracks with Bass. I shamelessly stole a lot of them from different threads here on AVS.

"Make Me Bad" - Korn
"Peel Me a Grape" - Dianna Krall
"1stp Klosur" - Linkin Park
"Breakin' a Sweat" - Skrillex
"Ghosts n Stuff" - Deadmau5
"FML" - Deadmau5
"Cold Cold Heart" - Norah Jones
"One" - Creed


You should check these out too.

Kickstart (Bar 9 Remix)- Example (This has very strong bass below 30Hz. The main bass line is below 30Hz)
Moonlight Sonata - Marcus Miller
Evil Beauty - Blackmill

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post #40 of 56 Old 02-27-2013, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

You should check these out too.

Kickstart (Bar 9 Remix)- Example (This has very strong bass below 30Hz. The main bass line is below 30Hz)
Moonlight Sonata - Marcus Miller
Evil Beauty - Blackmill

And then a couple of my own:


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post #41 of 56 Old 02-28-2013, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay so now I've got a technical question.

Current Signal path is as follows.

HTPC Motherboard- onboard AC97 sound > (RCA mini to 2-channel RCA) > Emotiva Mini A-100 > (RCA to 1/4" cable) > iNuke 3000 DSP > (speaker wire) > Sub

I'm guessing but can't confirm that I don't have sufficient input voltage to fully power the iNuke to maximum output. It does seem a little weak right now. The iNuke generally has 1-2 level lights even when the gain is turned up to the maximum. I have the volume controls all set to max on the computer. I have gotten 4 level lights this way but I can't remember what I was playing.

Eventually I will be using the sub-out on my Marantz SR5005 AVR and using Audessey so I'm not overly concerned about that having enough output voltage.

And also:

I noticed when playing at a high level, the enclosure vibrates. I'm guessing this is unavoidable physics, and I know my cabinet is well braced. The only way to reduce this is mass loading I'm guessing. I'm wondering if I should drop a 25 lb dumbell in the bottom of the sub. Maybe that's foolishness. But suddenly the idea of a 200 lb enclosure doesn't sound stupid anymore. With great power comes great... vibration?


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post #42 of 56 Old 04-07-2013, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay. Major updates.

I stuck an HRT Music Streamer II in my signal path. My sub amp is no longer input voltage starved and it really pounds now. Before this, I was not able to bottom out the 12" Dayton Reference with a 20 Hz Filter in place. Now I can with 75 % gain... big difference. Oh, and besides the voltage, the HRT seems to have improved my sound quality significantly. I got it for a steal on Ebay. Under $100 like new.

Speaking of prepping, I've been working on the sub. It was hard to take it apart, but progress must be made.
I skinned the top and back with 1/8" HDF (hardboard). I was able to flush the top with the front baffle, so it was pretty seemless.




The purpose of this was to cover up seams and screw holes more completely, and to add just a touch more mass to the top and back panels.




I did put a heavy layer of bondo on the inside of the woofer cutout. This is because there were several voids, one of which actually leaked out the side!





Top top edges are chamfered, the front sides are 3/4" roundover, and all other seams will be 3/8" roundover. I have had some problems with the cheap plywood. The thin outer ply splinters easily and I've had some big voids right on the edge. I've used quite a bit of bondo and I have probably 2 more "coats" before I am fully satisfied. I wish there was a "thinning agent" for Bondo. Maybe I will have to get the "glaze".

Just weighed it: 62.4 lbs completely empty.


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post #43 of 56 Old 04-07-2013, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been doing Bondo, Glaze, sanding, rinse, repeat. I did about 6 rounds of bondo or/ glaze.

Now that it's started to warm up I hit it up with 6 coats of primer. I have determined that the Rustoleum "Painters Touch" Gray Primer is my favorite by far. I used 3 cans of primer. Sanded it between every 2 coats.

And now paint. I am using the darkest black color of Rustoleum Hammertone. I really like how this stuff goes on and what it looks like. Exceeding my expectations. I already drained 2 cans dry and I'm about to buy 2 more. smile.gif















Amazing it looks this good considering what it looked like about a month ago with all those screws.


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post #44 of 56 Old 04-07-2013, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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And it's time for some BASS:

AND:


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post #45 of 56 Old 04-07-2013, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
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And it's time for some BASS:
Love that song! Her other music is good too and I'm not a big dubstep fan. The violin makes it for me!

YID DIY
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The violin PLAYER is what does it for me... wink.gif
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post #47 of 56 Old 04-08-2013, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Looking at the pics I really need to attack the top with some sandpaper to get some of the little imperfections out. Good thing I have 2 MORE cans of Hammered Black to get after it.

BTW this is the spray primer I like:
http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=402
Think it's under $4 at Wal-Mart. I've used some other stuff and for me this is the best. I tried some black primer but it actually sucks and also makes it harder to see when you start actually painting.


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post #48 of 56 Old 04-11-2013, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay, so it's done now. Or is it? I buttoned it up. I did notice that the left side is a little rough, I think it needs another layer of paint. And I'm seriously wondering if I should do some Laquer on top. It's pretty shiny and the finish is durable, but it could be- more glossy? How durable is lacquer? Anyway, here are my preliminary finished pics. Poor lighting in the basement, I might take it out to the yard to get some better shots of it.


Speakon connector, air tight, with optional rubber gasket. Thing is tiny.


2 pieces of R13 fiberglass. 16" x 24" rolled up and stuffed in the back half. It makes a huge difference.


Next to the 12" Dayton Reference... which I have a feeling is going to get an overhaul soon.



I compared it to the Dayton 12, and it seems to have a much DIFFERENT sound. I think it is due to stuffing. The 12" has very little stuffing in it (as Zaph recommended). The 18" has the back half completely stuffed with fiberglass (and I'm thinking about putting some more in). The 12 sounds like it has a much higher pitch, almost sounds "hollow" but also with more harmonics. The 18" sounds very solid and deeper, with less resonance. Almost "dry".

I know that stuffing can smooth response and that it makes it seem like a "bigger" box, but is there such a thing as too much stuffing, or can fiberglass be stuffed too densely?


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post #49 of 56 Old 04-11-2013, 08:46 AM
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The Dayton 18s are one of my favorite sounding subs - they have a super deep, articulate tone. The SI 18's are very similar as well.

Props on a build well done. You've got a heck of a lot more patience during the finishing process than I do. biggrin.gif


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post #50 of 56 Old 04-12-2013, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

but is there such a thing as too much stuffing, too densely?

Yes, fiberfill doesn't compress like air particles do, at some point the sub will have to work so hard to move the little air that remains that the SPL will start dropping, and the fiber would be banging up against the back of the cone biggrin.gif

You will notice a drop in SPL in the infrasonic and 20-30hz range firstly.

Just REW some sweeps of the before and after to see how you are changing the response.
(I think data-base has an article on this, can't remember the exact results of that test...)

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post #51 of 56 Old 04-12-2013, 12:56 PM
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I know that stuffing came smooth response and that it makes it seem like a "bigger" box, but is there such a thing as too much stuffing, or can fiberglass be stuffed too densely?
Stuffing lowers Q, which can tame a response hump, which is similar to using a larger box, but not the same thing, as a larger box also increases sensitivity and lowers response, stuffing doesn't. Too much stuffing can lower Q too much, giving a loss of response in the middle of the bandwidth. if the box has a high Q, over 1.0 or so, you can't add too much stuffing. But if it has a Q of 0.7 or less with no stuffing then anything more than a couple of inches of damping on the cabinet walls is too much.

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post #52 of 56 Old 04-13-2013, 02:07 PM
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I don't think you want to compress the fiberglass, should be fluffy.



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post #53 of 56 Old 04-15-2013, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I don't think you want to compress the fiberglass, should be fluffy.

Well I haven't tested the T/S parameters of my specific driver, but according to Unibox my QTC is 0.77 with Dayton specs, or 0.69 with DataBass.com T/S parameters. I might play with reducing the stuffing a little bit. I should get off my butt and do some measuring as well. Using test tones, it seemed to be loudest at 60 Hz, which kind of makes sense based on the predicted roll-off and and the 80 Hz LPF. I was using 18 dB/oct but I think I'm going to increase it to 24 dB/oct instead.


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post #54 of 56 Old 05-22-2014, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, it's been a year, and this sub still delivers. One of the great things about the thick aluminum cone and thick surround is it's pretty durable vs. kids. My 2 year old is 28 lbs. He recently STOOD on the rubber surround and didn't damage the sub. Not that I encourage that sort of thing, but it's nice that it can handle that. He's also ran into the cone while riding his plastic "car" a few times, kicked the cone, etc. No visible scratches or dents.

"Scary Christmas" sounds good and can really make the floor vibrate. I really can't max this thing out unless I play the music so loud that it's uncomfortable.

I still want another one for the theater though. For balance. smile.gif
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post #55 of 56 Old 05-22-2014, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
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Okay, so it's done now. Or is it? I buttoned it up. I did notice that the left side is a little rough, I think it needs another layer of paint. And I'm seriously wondering if I should do some Laquer on top. It's pretty shiny and the finish is durable, but it could be- more glossy? How durable is lacquer? Anyway, here are my preliminary finished pics. Poor lighting in the basement, I might take it out to the yard to get some better shots of it.

Do NOT apply lacquer over enamel... Lacquers have solvents that will ruin the enamel finish.
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post #56 of 56 Old 05-24-2014, 12:10 AM
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Do NOT apply lacquer over enamel... Lacquers have solvents that will ruin the enamel finish.

some of us found that out (the hard way, hehe)...
nice build ! go for moarrrrrrrrr haha
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