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post #1 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys not sure this is the right place for this , please fill free to move.

I have a pioneer elite vsx31 set up in 7.1, right know the crossover is set to 50HZ,I also have a crown xls1000 that powering to Dayton 18's with the crossover set to 100HZ. I have played around with crossover but not sure if I should just bypass the crossover on the amp since I can't turn off the crossover on the receiver (I don't think). Is this the same that applies to a powered sub where everybody says to turn the crossover all the way up and let the receiver do the work??

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post #2 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 10:19 AM
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Is the 50hz a global xover? If so, why is it set so low?

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post #3 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 10:31 AM
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Yeah same situation as a powered sub, you want to turn of the crossover on the XLS1000 as there is no need to use it also.
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post #4 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Not sure I follow (global xover)!! The crossover on the receiver has a crossover point of 50HZ to 200HZ to choose from. I am not sure what it should be set to. Should I turn the crossover off on the sub amp?

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post #5 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 10:42 AM
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Yes. No need for both. The receiver is already doing it for you. As far as which crossover point to use, I would adjust for best in room response. Do you have a way to take acoustic measurements?
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post #6 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 10:44 AM
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Global means it applies to all speakers. If so that sounds a little low to me. What's the F3 point on your speakers?

And yes, if using the xover on your receiver, you should disable the amp xover, or turn it to max.

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post #7 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 01:10 PM
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I sometimes run my mains full range, depending on my mood, but most of the time they are high passed at 50hz.
My side and rear speakers are always ran full-range, they are somewhat beefy, and I find most movies generally use them spairingly to begin with.
My center I usually do a high pass of 200hz just to maximize speech intelligibility (for now, until I can bi-amp it that is.)

My PA subs are low passed at 200hz and high passed at 30hz.
My high-excursion subs are low passed at 100hz usually; and sometimes 40hz with a high pass of 20hz depending on my mood.

Works for me...
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post #8 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 01:52 PM
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^^^ THX is rolling over in it's drawer right now. biggrin.gif

200 seems pretty high for your center. I've generally been taught you want to keep xover the same on your front stage.

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post #9 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

Yes. No need for both.
Not necessarily. Yes, you use the crossover in the AVR to set the crossover frequency. But the low pass filter slope in the AVR might not be sufficient to keep directional frequencies out of the sub. That's especially true if you're forced to cross higher than 80Hz because your mains won't go that low. Once the system is set see if you can directionally locate the sub. If you can try turning the sub amp filter frequency down to the vicinity of the crossover frequency, it may help. Doing so makes no alteration to the crossover frequency, only to the low pass slope.

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post #10 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 02:31 PM
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^ Very good point, sir. Something so simple may not apply to his situation in hindsight. I cross my mains at 80Hz, but sending the subs anything over that and the subs are easily localizable...I like to play around too. smile.gif Subs have LR filter and high passed at 20hz (over excursion protection primarily) and have a low pass at 200hz for both channels I'm running. Kind of redundant for the low pass since the sub will never see those frequencies, but I just do it. If the OP can measure the system, he may find the best possible xo point at the listening position...heck, last time I measured I found my subs were out of phase. tongue.gif
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post #11 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

^ Very good point, sir. Something so simple may not apply to his situation in hindsight. I cross my mains at 80Hz, but sending the subs anything over that and the subs are easily localizable..
Common wisdom says that you can directionally locate above 80Hz, but as is often the case common wisdom isn't quite correct. With a brickwall filter it's difficult to localize even at 100Hz, but AVRs don't have brickwall filters. What's easily locatable lies around 120-150Hz, and with typical AVR filters you can still get a lot of content there even with an 80Hz lowpass. Cascade the filter in the sub amp and you can get the same or even lower content at 120-150Hz with a 100Hz crossover as you do with the AVR filter alone at 80Hz.

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post #12 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

^ Very good point, sir. Something so simple may not apply to his situation in hindsight. I cross my mains at 80Hz, but sending the subs anything over that and the subs are easily localizable..
Common wisdom says that you can directionally locate above 80Hz, but as is often the case common wisdom isn't quite correct. With a brickwall filter it's difficult to localize even at 100Hz, but AVRs don't have brickwall filters. What's easily locatable lies around 120-150Hz, and with typical AVR filters you can still get a lot of content there even with an 80Hz lowpass. Cascade the filter in the sub amp and you can get the same or even lower content at 120-150Hz with a 100Hz crossover as you do with the AVR filter alone at 80Hz.

I have to say, I cascaded filters between the Midbass drivers and the mains in my last setup and it yielded the best results, but with the new SI's I get a nice transition at 100hz XO point.

To the OP, What receiver are you using? Some receivers allow for each individual speaker's XO to be set independently, and then there is the LFE filter as well for the sub. This should at least be set to start with at 120hz, as the sound mixer for movies will use up to 120hz tones in the .1 (LFE channel). For the regular Left/Center/Right crossover points, another good starting point is 80hz assuming your speakers are capable of reproducing sound well down to that point. What type of speakers do you have so we can figure that out??

Bottom line is if your LFE channel is set to 50hz, then you are cutting half of the sub channel's response off so you shouldn't be getting all the bass you can out of the daytons. They are easily good up to well over 100hz and are still efficient.

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post #13 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I have to say, I cascaded filters between the Midbass drivers and the mains in my last setup and it yielded the best results, but with the new SI's I get a nice transition at 100hz XO point.

To the OP, What receiver are you using? Some receivers allow for each individual speaker's XO to be set independently, and then there is the LFE filter as well for the sub. This should at least be set to start with at 120hz, as the sound mixer for movies will use up to 120hz tones in the .1 (LFE channel). For the regular Left/Center/Right crossover points, another good starting point is 80hz assuming your speakers are capable of reproducing sound well down to that point. What type of speakers do you have so we can figure that out??

Bottom line is if your LFE channel is set to 50hz, then you are cutting half of the sub channel's response off so you shouldn't be getting all the bass you can out of the daytons. They are easily good up to well over 100hz and are still efficient.

I am using a pioneer elite vsx-31, the crossover I see is adjustable from 50 to 200HZ there is no LFE crossover. My speakers are RADIIENT TECHNOLOGIES with the towers sensitivity at 90db at frequency 40-35k,the center is 90db and 60-20k. Should I set the speakers to large and use crossover on the amp??? If so what should the crossover be set at for the Dayton's??? Right know I have the receiver set on 50hz and the amp on bridged bypass.

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post #14 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 04:22 PM
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where you are selecting this XO, what else does it say as it is selected? HPF? is it under the speaker adjustments tab on your AVR or your sub's adjustments? Can you take a screenshot or pic of what you are looking at? That is a nice AVR, and it should have the ability to set your sub's XO point (labeled "LFE") separately from the rest of your speakers somehow. Once we find it, I would suggest defeating all the amp's crossovers and let your AVR do all the processing instead...

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post #15 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 04:28 PM
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These guys are giving you excellent advice. However, if you just want some simple settings to use, or to serve as a starting point, the common wisdom is to:
* set the receiver crossover to 80hz (50 is too low for your center speaker)
* bypass the crossover in the sub amp

-Max
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post #16 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't find anything on the receiver or the manual on LFE crossover!! Just the crossover in the MCAAC menus which does not say HPF or LPF

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post #17 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 04:54 PM
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The receiver xover works as both. It acts as a high pass for the mains, and a low pass for the subs.

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post #18 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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The only thing I can find is setting the crossover will filter those from the speakers and send to the sub, so if I set the crossover to 80hz then the sub will only see 80hz and below is this correct, if so should I set to 100hz to get more from the Dayton's

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post #19 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 04:57 PM
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See above post. smile.gif

THX recommends an xover of 80hz, but this depends on individual preference as well as speaker capability.

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post #20 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIESEL758 View Post

I can't find anything on the receiver or the manual on LFE crossover!! Just the crossover in the MCAAC menus which does not say HPF or LPF

Some other receivers have an LFE low pass setting. The LFE channel is a separate channel in the source material. The "LFE filter" only affects the LFE channel. But not all receivers have this setting. That's probably why you can't find it.

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post #21 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok iam going to try 80hz on the receiver and bypass the crown

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post #22 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 05:03 PM
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Yep, so I would say then, defeat ALL amplifier crossover settings, and start with 80hz crossover on the pioneer, and adjust up and down between 80 and 120hz until you really hear the presentation that you prefer. Doing this is not going to make part of the response disappear, it will just redirect the frequencies below the crossover point to your daytons. The daytons are good to go pretty high as they are relatively compliant subs, so just experiment with some well-known source material that you like and set it where you want. I wouldn't venture any lower than 80hz really though, as your main speakers need to be able to produce the sound as best as possible and this is a good stopping point for them. maybe 60hz for the L/R speakers but then that puts your center into an area that it might not like. If you had separate adjustments for each speaker, I would possibly suggest that, but alas, not on that unit it appears from your experience.

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post #23 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIESEL758 View Post

The only thing I can find is setting the crossover will filter those from the speakers and send to the sub, so if I set the crossover to 80hz then the sub will only see 80hz and below is this correct, if so should I set to 100hz to get more from the Dayton's

FYI -- Some receivers have separate crossover settings for each set of speakers -- "Main", "Center", "Surround", etc. If you only have one setting, it applies to all the speakers.

The crossover is not a "brick wall". A "brick wall" would send an 81Hz tone to the main speakers only, and the sub would be silent. But it doesn't work like that. If you play an 81Hz tone, you will hear it on both the sub and speakers.

You don't want to set the crossover too high or the sound will become "localizable" to the sub. That can be weird if you are watching a movie and it starts to sound like deep voices (or car crashes, etc.) are coming from wherever your sub is located, rather than from the center (or left, or right). "Localizability" depends on the frequency (and your room, I think), so you don't want to set the crossover frequency too high. 80hz is the common recommendation, to minimize issues with localizability. But it's just a generic recommendation -- it is simple and should work fine for most people, but careful testing in your actual room may lead to an improvement using some other settings.

-Max
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post #24 of 33 Old 02-27-2013, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys I will play around with the settings tonight and see what I come up with.

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post #25 of 33 Old 03-11-2013, 12:44 PM
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If the receiver is set at 80 and my cd player is also set at 80 which over rides which? How do they operate with mixed settings?
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post #26 of 33 Old 03-11-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jerrygene View Post

If the receiver is set at 80 and my cd player is also set at 80 which over rides which? How do they operate with mixed settings?
CD players don't have crossovers.

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post #27 of 33 Old 03-11-2013, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Common wisdom says that you can directionally locate above 80Hz, but as is often the case common wisdom isn't quite correct. With a brickwall filter it's difficult to localize even at 100Hz, but AVRs don't have brickwall filters. What's easily locatable lies around 120-150Hz, and with typical AVR filters you can still get a lot of content there even with an 80Hz lowpass. Cascade the filter in the sub amp and you can get the same or even lower content at 120-150Hz with a 100Hz crossover as you do with the AVR filter alone at 80Hz.

Hi Bill. Sorry for the late reply, but thank you sir. Alas, I do not have mini dsp atm and I cannot do two LP's in series. Only one set of filter types per output, or am I doing it wrong? InukeDSP. I really do need upgrades though, ehem more toys. smile.gif
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I have to say, I cascaded filters between the Midbass drivers and the mains in my last setup and it yielded the best results, but with the new SI's I get a nice transition at 100hz XO point.

What midbass drivers were you using? I've tossed around the idea of using a pair of TD18H for this duty and some SI's for ULF.
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post #28 of 33 Old 03-11-2013, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok we'll I ended buying a behringer fbq3102 eq and and put it between the receiver and amp. The eq made a huge differance one question would be is that it has a low pass cut and high pass cut that I currently have them turned all the way to the left, low pass cut set at 10HZ & high pass cut set to 2.5KHZ. Is this the correct settings?? Do they need to set to something different??

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post #29 of 33 Old 03-11-2013, 05:51 PM
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If the amp has an automated setup then set the actual sub to as high a crossover frequency as you can, basically knob all the way to the right, volumn/gain about halfway uo and run the auto setup. If doing manual setup, again set the subs knob all the way to the right and the crossover freq on the receiver at about 2/3 of the range of adjustment on the sub. I have found that to be a good starting point. Tweak as needed. Of course YMMV. biggrin.gif

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post #30 of 33 Old 03-12-2013, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

CD players don't have crossovers.
On my Oppo 103 there is an audio setting on setup where you can adjust ohms...As well as on the receiver therefore my question....I adjusted each to 80..
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