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post #451 of 876 Old 03-24-2013, 08:47 PM
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Bosso, I am also in the process of about the same thing as carp is doing, so I will do my best to show my results in my "hey multisub dudes" thread. I am working with the DCX instead of a mini though so my L/T type stuff is going to be a little more rudimentary, where I am testing the merits of a 20hz lp boost vs flat vs 20hz negative hp boost as well, but I will certainly do a start out with the rs meter measured "flat" and the sweeps that would coincide. I am also running 8 SI18's sealed biggrin.gif

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post #452 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 12:34 AM
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I
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Heh, I had to lock it in (engage the four wheel drive system to you city folk) for part of my drive in to work this morning. You can have the snow!
Side note, I'd love to see Angkore! It's on my bucket list. Next winter, you stay at my house for a week or two and battle the snow and I will stay at your place.cool.gif
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post #453 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Ok, so from another metal-head, how is the metal kick-drum sounding flat vs your previously preferred EQ curve? I have learned that in metal I still prefer to run the subs hotter than any other source material. See below...

It depends on the artist but most have been flat to +3 with some hotter. I listened to And Justice for All at 5 hot and I don't listen to the black album often but I did yesterday and the sound quality was amazing, I think I was 3 hot.

HOWEVER - That's with level matching using the omnimic and receiver test tones however, so if you check out Bosso's post above it looks like "flat" is actually hot already. I'm going to run some full frequency sweeps when I get a chance and see how hot I actually am. Like I've mentioned before, if I let MCACC calibrate it sets me at 4 db louder than with using the omnimic and test tones!

Also, the louder the master volume the more I feel the need to boost the bass more. I've always been that way. I was at reasonable volumes when I was flat to +3, but if I cranked it up I'd need hotter bass.

Now, with non metal music - well recorded demo type stuff - flat sounded perfect. With Archaea type music with heavy bass I like to go 10+ hot however. You would think since that music has a lot of bass flat would be fine, but when there is some bass I want more when it comes to that type of music.
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post #454 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

carp,

Please try Justin Timberlake - Suit and Tie - the first 45 seconds or so in the intro. I don't know what frequency that is, but I bet with eight of those drivers you could start losening drywall. There is some crazy low frequency in that intro that makes my walls shake - even with the ported captivators. I suspect it's right at 20hz or slightly below. I'm guessing 16 to 19hz for a long time, and mixed hot. Funny cause most of the people who would listen to that wouldn't even know it exists since it's on top 40 type stuff which is played on subs that can't even play those notes.

I tried this last night. Yeah not sure the frequency but there is a lot there. With my new setup it bothers my wife if I crank it so I couldn't go too nuts, but still yeah there is some low stuff on that for sure. I wonder how often music like that has that since I don't listen to pop - or whatever you call that.
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post #455 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

First, here's the stock AVR rumble tone for calibration:



Basically, if you use the RS meter, you can forget below 50 Hz because the meter is 'C' weighted, so 20 Hz is down too low through the meter to have any appreciable effect on the dBSPL you use to set the level.

If I use that tone and meter and set the SW level to 75dB, my subs are +4dB hot, (+/-) 1dB.

Run a full range sweep and level the subs that way... much more accurate. If you do try it that way, LMK the details, if you get the time.

Sure it's fair to compare. If the 2 systems were calibrated to the same level, they should sound the same. If they don't because 1 system gave more or better placement options, headroom or whatever, then that system wins, for those reasons. That's always the way I looked at it and why I went multiples back when. Best FR, which is everything, and as you commented on and I've always agreed with, too much pull down EQ ruins the SQ, so best FR without smoothing EQ wins, IMO.

Wow, so that means that the MCACC calibration is crazy hot since MCACC calibrates 4db louder than using test tones and the omnimic. I'll run full range freq response to see where I'm at. So do you take the highest peak below 100hz and match it to the highest peak say above 1khz? It will be easy to estimate if I am flat through the whole full freq range but there is no way that's going to be the case.
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post #456 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 06:49 AM
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Guys, I have found that a flat response from REW has less bass than going to an Imax theater which I always just wanted to create that experience or better. When I calibrate with my test tones(only after running sweeps and making a flat graph to 5hz) the 50hz is the same as my 20hz so it should be accurate and then when setting to 75 dBs REW will show it 10 dBs hotter from a sweep. Is this not the extra 10 dBs added for movie playback? When I run in different modes the level of the bass changes. Also, REW is measuring my analog inputs and not my digital inputs, are they different? Anyways, I know for a fact that when I use REW to make a flat graph and leave it like that my RS meter shows that I am at 65 dBs during the Calibration mode and I lose all the bass. Now people might say that is flat and how it is supposed to sound but my IMAX and local THX theaters have more bass like that so to me whether accurate, correct, or not I turn it up to give the better than IMAX experience.
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post #457 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 06:57 AM
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With such incredible equipment, I'm surprised you're still using MCACC. I've found it to be the weakest of all the room correction software, especially for subs. I was a huge fan of the Denon 4311 and XT32, but once I tried Trinnov I can never go back to anything else.

Aside from that, you should charge people to watch a movie or listen to an album in your room. I love what you've done with it, and I hope to have something like it someday. In the meantime, its an attraction all on its own, and you should recoup the $$ by giving other people the experience for $15 a pop. lol
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post #458 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Speaking of center; I'd recommend pulling it out even with the subs flanking it.

Yep. Pull center out and then cover the top of the speakers and subs with black velvet. I have subs that stick out 3.5" in front of my screen and I covered them. Makes them disappear. smile.gif

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post #459 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

With such incredible equipment, I'm surprised you're still using MCACC. I've found it to be the weakest of all the room correction software, especially for subs. I was a huge fan of the Denon 4311 and XT32, but once I tried Trinnov I can never go back to anything else.

Aside from that, you should charge people to watch a movie or listen to an album in your room. I love what you've done with it, and I hope to have something like it someday. In the meantime, its an attraction all on its own, and you should recoup the $$ by giving other people the experience for $15 a pop. lol


Thanks man -

The only thing I use MCACC for is setting speaker distances. The eq settings that MCACC sets sound terrible and it doesn't do anything for subs except distance which I tweak anyway. Someday I may get a receiver with the highest level of Audyssey, but so far I've preferred Audyssey off when I've been in other rooms.

I'm not familiar with Trinnov...
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post #460 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Thanks man -

The only thing I use MCACC for is setting speaker distances. The eq settings that MCACC sets sound terrible and it doesn't do anything for subs except distance which I tweak anyway. Someday I may get a receiver with the highest level of Audyssey, but so far I've preferred Audyssey off when I've been in other rooms.

I'm not familiar with Trinnov...

Trinnov has a unique ability called 3D remapping. It basically can take my crappy, non symmetrical speaker alignment, and remap everything so it sounds like everything is coming from where it should be. It basically does things like move the center channel so that it sounds like voices are coming out of the screen instead of the speaker. It removes localization, and makes everything sound like a wall of sound. I've owned every brand of receiver and auto eq under $2,000, and nothing can create a sound field like it, aside from having a perfect dedicated room.

Trinnov units themselves cost upwards of $10,000, but there was one receiver released with it, the Sherwood R-972. The receiver itself has some quirks, but Trinnov EQ/remapping is unreal. 1saleaday had this receiver for sale for $299 one day, and I jumped on it to try out. I sold my $1,200+ Denon 4311 after I was done comparing them. As a pre-pro, I won't use anything else anymore until it can also remap like it.
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post #461 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 08:51 AM
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that remap only works for a single seat no?

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post #462 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

that remap only works for a single seat no?

1 listening spot at at time, up to 3 individual calibrations to switch between for different listening positions. Sounds like it would be a compromise, but it makes sense.

If you're off axis in a completely different spot without having a calibration for it, and actively set to it, it basically goes back to sounding like XT32 and loses the seamless effect where you cant localize the speakers.

Its pretty crazy. 7.1 Trinnov sounds more cohesive than when I did 11.1 with wides and heights. XT32 does a bit better EQ wise for music, but with movies it feels like you have speakers everywhere when Trinnov 3D remapping is running. There's nothing else like it. It just sucks that it is so expensive, and the only affordable version is in a niche receiver.
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post #463 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you know where you can find this receiver now? Unavailable on Amazon.
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post #464 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Do you know where you can find this receiver now? Unavailable on Amazon.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/SHERR972/SHERWOOD-R-972-Newcastle-7.1-A/V-Surround-Receiver-TrueHD-DTS-HD/1.html

Its an older receiver, which has a crappy video scaler, but it can be bypassed and bypasses through 3D just fine. No networking to it either, but works great as a pre-pro, and has a pretty decent amp section.

It didn't sell well in retail, so they are basically clearing the stock out. Like the Denon 4311, you're getting a $1,800 receiver at the time for much less now. I have the Sherwood hooked up to an XPA-5 (which I don't even really need with this), and movies sound better than the 4311 ever did. That says alot.

I'm not sure if there will be another 1saleaday blowout price for refurbs, but the price for a new one and 3 year warranty isn't bad either. If it works well in your room, the effect is outstanding. It's truly a hidden gem that not too many people know about or have heard.

It can also EQ all the way down to 19hz with good results. Your minidsp could handle the rest.
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post #465 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 11:01 AM
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post #466 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Ok, so from another metal-head, how is the metal kick-drum sounding flat vs your previously preferred EQ curve? I have learned that in metal I still prefer to run the subs hotter than any other source material. See below...

It depends on the artist but most have been flat to +3 with some hotter. I listened to And Justice for All at 5 hot and I don't listen to the black album often but I did yesterday and the sound quality was amazing, I think I was 3 hot.

HOWEVER - That's with level matching using the omnimic and receiver test tones however, so if you check out Bosso's post above it looks like "flat" is actually hot already. I'm going to run some full frequency sweeps when I get a chance and see how hot I actually am. Like I've mentioned before, if I let MCACC calibrate it sets me at 4 db louder than with using the omnimic and test tones!

Also, the louder the master volume the more I feel the need to boost the bass more. I've always been that way. I was at reasonable volumes when I was flat to +3, but if I cranked it up I'd need hotter bass.

Now, with non metal music - well recorded demo type stuff - flat sounded perfect. With Archaea type music with heavy bass I like to go 10+ hot however. You would think since that music has a lot of bass flat would be fine, but when there is some bass I want more when it comes to that type of music.

This is about spot on with my own experience, especially with the Highly Efficient JTR's and my new SEOS. Anytime I get between -10 and -5dB MV, I feel I need to crank the bass, but then if I go -5 to 0.0 I sometimes feel like I am happy again. Quite strange and more than likely perception, but that is how it is. I tend to like the metal stuff around 5dB hot and good acoustic stuff dead flat as well. Some of my heavy bass music is just scary at +10, but certainly scary cool biggrin.gif

As far as level matching the subs to the mains, I have to experiment tonight with this some, and will post my results. I am running XT32 so my results will be different from yours, but hopefully still beneficial for Bosso to use to compile on of his excellent comparison charts or something. I will say that after Audyssey calibration, it sets my subs stupid low and I don't like it one bit, but if I level match with the RS meter it sounds pretty solid to me, adding just a couple dB's more is usually a good "All-around" point with fine-tweaking only happening for extended listening sessions (2.1 stereo) of all the same program material.

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post #467 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 11:40 AM
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If you look at the SpecLab cap of the AVR BW-limited pink noise cal tone, it's dominant at 50 Hz, right in the center of 20-80 Hz, so that will dominate the RS meter reading when you set the SW level.

Correction files say to add 1.5dB at 50 Hz to the reading to correct for the RS meters C-weight curve, so if you're reading 75dB, it's really 76.5dB or higher. Some say as much as +3dB over the RS meter reading.

MKT, depends on how you run your sweep through REW. If you set your AVR to stereo and use L&R, redirecting bass to the SW channel, you're getting double bass back into REW through the mic.

Here's the experiment I did a few years back running a sweep in stereo, then switch to all channel (5 sats) stereo, and it added the predicted +9dB to the sub output:



This is a very interesting subject because conventional wisdom says that phase coherent same content in all 5 channels plus LFE summed at the SW output equals 121dB peaks. IOW, basically what my experiment shows happens when you send the same signal to all 5 channels vs 2 channels and redirect that info to the SW out.

That would mean that the sub is up to 6dB hot already with some soundtracks.

So, take the average Joe who uses the RS meter and rumble tone and set the SW level to 78dB, thinking he's a few dB hot. He's actually potentially 10dB hot. He then bumps the SW trim level to demo a scene or 2 and now he's 15dB hot.

That's cool with a commercial sub that's limiter and filter choked don low, but try that with my system and bad things will happen to the sub hardware, the house and the persons in the way. wink.gif
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Carp, Just use 1/3 octave smoothing and that should give accurate level matching without the peaks/dips.
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Beast, yep, if you can't get the job done with 40+ liters of displacement, you're doing pretty much everything wrong. It would be awesome to see the results of any diff in the 2 shelf filter methods. Ping me when you post results so I don't miss them? cool.gif
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When I first bought clone amps 3 years ago, I didn't bother with the gain limit and voltage peak limit settings. DON'T make that mistake if you have these amps! Every other pro sound amp has global gain/limiter settings, making it much harder to set up a proper gain match. The clones are unique in that sense, but that can work against you if you don't use them properly, either clipping/limiting when you shouldn't be or damaging the amp or drivers.

In one example, playing a heavy hitter scene with strong ULF would cause the VPL lights to flash momentarily but everything sounded OK and the drivers were handling the scene at ref level with no problems. That's what I was testing for, to see how much displacement was needed with 'X' amplifier at ref level in 3500 cubes while playing heavy hitter scenes.

This indicated that the system was amp-limited.

After we spent the day measuring voltage out of the AVR SW output while playing those scenes at '0'dBMVL and '0'dB SW trim level, we realized that some scenes measured a lot higher voltage than the AVR spec. We then sent that same signal through the L/T and measured up to 10V out!

With the clones dip switch settings at global, the input signal was way too much and sending the amp over its limits on those scenes. We knew the L/T wasn't clipping because we specifically designed and tested the power supply to handle worse-case scenarios.

We then ratcheted the SW trim down to -8dB and designed and installed a circuit to ratchet the L/T signal down to a predetermined level and remeasured. With the new voltage out numbers, we set the gain limit and voltage peak limit settings so that a 2 O'clock front panel gain setting would run the amp to full power with no clipping and give the best signal to noise ratio.

After that, when playing the same scenes, there was no limit or clip lights flashing but the drivers soft-bottomed. This revealed that I was using too much amp for the system!

Minding signal chain roll off, gain matching, matching the power to the system and proper calibration may be the difference between a happy camper or a trip to the landfill, FWIW.
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post #468 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/SHERR972/SHERWOOD-R-972-Newcastle-7.1-A/V-Surround-Receiver-TrueHD-DTS-HD/1.html

Its an older receiver, which has a crappy video scaler, but it can be bypassed and bypasses through 3D just fine. No networking to it either, but works great as a pre-pro, and has a pretty decent amp section.

It didn't sell well in retail, so they are basically clearing the stock out. Like the Denon 4311, you're getting a $1,800 receiver at the time for much less now. I have the Sherwood hooked up to an XPA-5 (which I don't even really need with this), and movies sound better than the 4311 ever did. That says alot.

I'm not sure if there will be another 1saleaday blowout price for refurbs, but the price for a new one and 3 year warranty isn't bad either. If it works well in your room, the effect is outstanding. It's truly a hidden gem that not too many people know about or have heard.

It can also EQ all the way down to 19hz with good results. Your minidsp could handle the rest.

I'm very intrigued. How does the room eq work, is it like Audyssey where it's either on or off or can you tweak it at all?

Also, for me it's very important for a receiver to VERY easily change the sub volume. With my receiver I press one button and I can go up or down in sub volume, I've seen Onkyo's and Denon's that you have to go into a menu just to change the sub volume. That would drive me crazy because I tweak it a lot depending on the song that's playing.
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post #469 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I just saw this on the users thread, if that's the case it's too bad


"There does not appear to be any real time alteration of many of the sound properties. To change anything but surround mode you have to go into setup - Quick Audio ref./Adjust where you can change things such as Trinnov position /room eq,/spatial mode/ remapping, center and subw level as well as tone control. When I enter this I lose audio such that there is no real time monitoring of those changes. "

.
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post #470 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I'm very intrigued. How does the room eq work, is it like Audyssey where it's either on or off or can you tweak it at all?

Also, for me it's very important for a receiver to VERY easily change the sub volume. With my receiver I press one button and I can go up or down in sub volume, I've seen Onkyo's and Denon's that you have to go into a menu just to change the sub volume. That would drive me crazy because I tweak it a lot depending on the song that's playing.

It's like Audyssey. It differs in that you can turn the 2D or 3D remapping off and just use the EQ and distance settings, or add a "natural" house curve of sorts. Individual frequencies cannot be adjusted after it is run, or if its turned on.

Yep, sub volume is in a menu. Quite a few annoying quirks like that in the receiver too, but for me Trinnov makes it worth it. I don't see how I can ever go without it now, unless Audyssey comes up with their own spatial 3D remapping.

Its strength is in movie soundtracks. For music, the effect isn't as pronounced, and XT32 does EQ a little bit better, but not by much.

It would probably be cool to demo at a GTG. Any spots open for April? smile.gif
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post #471 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 01:01 PM
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I tried the R972 in my room and i just could not get the bass to sound good. I messed with it non-stop for over a week before going back to my 4311ci. For the price its totally worth it to give it a try though.
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post #472 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 01:09 PM
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I tried the R972 in my room and i just could not get the bass to sound good. I messed with it non-stop for over a week before going back to my 4311ci. For the price its totally worth it to give it a try though.

I had to load the +3db and +6db gain firmware files (I used the +6db one) before I was happy. Just another quirk you have to go through. My dual opposed SI's sound better than my old Submersive did, and I haven't even gotten my minidsp yet.
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post #473 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 01:42 PM
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I tried adding that 6db file, but it still didnt help. frown.gif Maybe just my weird room layout?? Two of my buddies down the street run the 972 and it sounds FANTASTIC in their rooms.
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post #474 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 02:27 PM
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I tried adding that 6db file, but it still didnt help. frown.gif Maybe just my weird room layout?? Two of my buddies down the street run the 972 and it sounds FANTASTIC in their rooms.

It could be the room or a million other things. The unit itself or the mic may have been bad too. Sometimes I need to run the calibration twice to sound good, other times once is fine. It's not a receiver for the faint of heart, and is definitely not wife and kid friendly, but if it does work in a room like you said, its fantastic.

Its one of those things audio nuts like ourselves have to experience at some point. Its much more practical to feel like there are 16 speakers in the room, instead of actually using 16 of them.
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post #475 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Sh*t sh*t sh*t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! mad.gif

The guy I sold the Submersive to contacted me today. He got it but it's really damaged bad. Evidently the packaging was horrible.

Here's how it went. I called Fedex to see what they would charge to do the packaging for the Submersive and they said they wouldn't do it for something that big and heavy and they referred me to a company called Navis - they gave me the phone number and everything. So, I contacted Navis and had them package the Submersive for me. Everything seemed fine, the box was close to the same size as the Submersive packaging and I assumed all was well since the owner assured me that this is what his company does and it will be fine. I didn't open up the package because it had those huge brass staple things. I brought it back to a fedex store and they asked me how much I wanted to insure for so I said 2299 and he asked what it was, I told him and he opened one side to look and and then added some tape.

The seller told me it was packed horrible, basically a bunch of bubble wrap and the corners were not well protected - as you can see.

So, anyone have an experience like this? How is this going to end?

Oh yeah, the Navis company didn't even ship the power cord or xlr/rca cord even thought I reminded them to do so and put the cords right on top of the sub.

Wow. This sucks.







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post #476 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 05:04 PM
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So, anyone have an experience like this? How is this going to end?
Badly, I'm afraid. If the packaging doesn't meet the shipper's standards you are uninsured. That standard is usually two full inches of polystyrene foam. It's your responsibility to make sure it's properly packed. After they deny the claim you'd have to sue the party who did the packing for you, and prove that the job they did was not that which your contract with them specified. But if you didn't have a contract that says they would pack it to Fedex requirements you may be out of luck.

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post #477 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 05:10 PM
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That sucks on the damaged subs!

First thing Fed-Ex will do is deny the claim, that's what they all do and hope you just go away. You have to keep on them and also contact the packaging company and tear them a new one. Damage claims are horrible but just keep on them and you should eventually get reimbursed. Also look into possibly buying the SubM back at a discount. I had UPS play brown truck soccer with a Velodyne HGS-18 a long time ago and they covered the claim and I was able to buy the sub back from them for cheap with only damaged corners and more than enough extra money in my pocket to wipe away the tears.

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post #478 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Great. What a nightmare. It doesn't help at all that Fedex referred me to the company that did the packaging? That's the last time I ship any gear.
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post #479 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Sh*t sh*t sh*t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! mad.gif

The guy I sold the Submersive to contacted me today. He got it but it's really damaged bad. Evidently the packaging was horrible.

Here's how it went. I called Fedex to see what they would charge to do the packaging for the Submersive and they said they wouldn't do it for something that big and heavy and they referred me to a company called Navis - they gave me the phone number and everything. So, I contacted Navis and had them package the Submersive for me. Everything seemed fine, the box was close to the same size as the Submersive packaging and I assumed all was well since the owner assured me that this is what his company does and it will be fine. I didn't open up the package because it had those huge brass staple things. I brought it back to a fedex store and they asked me how much I wanted to insure for so I said 2299 and he asked what it was, I told him and he opened one side to look and and then added some tape.

The seller told me it was packed horrible, basically a bunch of bubble wrap and the corners were not well protected - as you can see.

So, anyone have an experience like this? How is this going to end?

Oh yeah, the Navis company didn't even ship the power cord or xlr/rca cord even thought I reminded them to do so and put the cords right on top of the sub.

Wow. This sucks.

And how much did this packing service actually save over buying the replacement packing from us that I offered?

In short, you can't get boxes off the shelf which really are much use for stuff over 75-100 lbs unless you really beef things up internally. All of the boxes Jeff & I use are ordered custom at much heavier weight/strength. For any speakers over 50-75 lbs, most shipping companies and UPS/FedEx stores don't have a clue how to insure safe arrival, as the minimums won't cut it.

The tough part will be that as an individual, it's more hassle to file the claim vs. a company with an account. If Navis shipped it for you, they would have to make the claim. In this case be sure to have the receiver take pictures of the outside and inside of the packing.

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Seaton Sound, Inc.
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post #480 of 876 Old 03-25-2013, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

I tried adding that 6db file, but it still didnt help. frown.gif Maybe just my weird room layout?? Two of my buddies down the street run the 972 and it sounds FANTASTIC in their rooms.

It still stumps me why it didn't work in your room and why your subs sounded so bad is even more baffling. You know how my subs sound in my room and I really have never had any ill effects with Trinnov in regards to the bass.

I am another big time proponent of Trinnov, replaced a Onkyo 5508 and had a Marantz AV7005 and Denon 4311 before that and 972 trumps them all in my system. I even picked up a second 972 for the living room system that replaced a Onkyo 3008. As Bhazard already mentioned I think XT32 may be better musically but for movies and TV you are just enveloped with sound, it really is something I can't give up until there is another alternative besides the ADA $10K standalone Trinnov EQ.

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