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post #631 of 873 Old 09-20-2013, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm going for the record for most consecutive posts.


Ok, I'm tired - time to crash.
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post #632 of 873 Old 09-21-2013, 02:38 AM
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haha...i do that all the time. it's cool.

"What's interesting is that I did a demo last night and I had the exact same volume settings and sub settings and showed the usual heavy hitters like WOTW, Flight of the Phoenix, Master and Commander, etc. and I did not trip the breaker."

maybe they just forget to filter out the dc content in the other movie and you ended up drawing full sustained current.

maybe somebody can do an analysis of the content. do you remember the timestamp when she blew?

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post #633 of 873 Old 09-21-2013, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Ha, but John you usually have something of value to say when you do that. biggrin.gif

No I don't know the exact time stamp, but it was the heaviest bass right at the end of the monument crumbling. Definitely a demo worthy scene!! For bass I would put this movie in my favorite top 10 easily.
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post #634 of 873 Old 09-21-2013, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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You could be right, in the past I have shown those bass demo's like WOTW and FOTP even louder, I've gone as loud as 2 under reference on the MV and the subs 8 db's hot with the house curve boosting up 15-25hz another 8hz and with those settings I don't trip the breaker.
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post #635 of 873 Old 09-21-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Ha, but John you usually have something of value to say when you do that. biggrin.gif

No I don't know the exact time stamp, but it was the heaviest bass right at the end of the monument crumbling. Definitely a demo worthy scene!! For bass I would put this movie in my favorite top 10 easily.

+1

Been praising that very scene from the first time I saw it a few weeks back. I'm confident it will make it on to a reference disk at some point.

Also, I echo Scott's thoughts on the IPR. Go for it! One thing to keep in mind though... The IPR has been noted to be very efficient, but I'm not sure what (if any) efficiency you will gain over your CV.

Meaning... I have to assume that you would still be able to trip your breaker.

Dude.... I've been pushing my system harder and harder lately with my Clones and I've popped breakers in the first 30 seconds of music playback...

 

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post #636 of 873 Old 09-21-2013, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

+1

Been praising that very scene from the first time I saw it a few weeks back. I'm confident it will make it on to a reference disk at some point.

Also, I echo Scott's thoughts on the IPR. Go for it! One thing to keep in mind though... The IPR has been noted to be very efficient, but I'm not sure what (if any) efficiency you will gain over your CV.

Meaning... I have to assume that you would still be able to trip your breaker.

Dude.... I've been pushing my system harder and harder lately with my Clones and I've popped breakers in the first 30 seconds of music playback...

Hey Austin, on another thread they are talking about a crazy bass pulse in the movie World War Z at the 1hr-5min mark. I thought you would like to test it out on your fantastic system if you have not already!
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post #637 of 873 Old 09-21-2013, 11:14 PM
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That scene in WWZ sent a wave of bass through my whole house, it was great!
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post #638 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 05:38 AM
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Hey Austin, on another thread they are talking about a crazy bass pulse in the movie World War Z at the 1hr-5min mark. I thought you would like to test it out on your fantastic system if you have not already!

Looking forward to it! I'm on the Master Bass List almost everyday.

WWZ has me excited for sure!

 

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post #639 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

+1

Been praising that very scene from the first time I saw it a few weeks back. I'm confident it will make it on to a reference disk at some point.

Also, I echo Scott's thoughts on the IPR. Go for it! One thing to keep in mind though... The IPR has been noted to be very efficient, but I'm not sure what (if any) efficiency you will gain over your CV.

Meaning... I have to assume that you would still be able to trip your breaker.

Dude.... I've been pushing my system harder and harder lately with my Clones and I've popped breakers in the first 30 seconds of music playback...

The Peavey is class D which is around ~90% efficient compared to the 50-60% of the class H amps. The peavey will still draw 30+ amps though, but one can extract far more power out of the amplifier on a standard 20 amp line with a class D amp before tripping the breaker. smile.gif

Carp - You've got to try the peavey soon. I'm very curious to hear what you think, you will be one of the first to push it hard in 2 ohm stereo and have the woofage to take it.
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post #640 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 09:23 AM
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Carp,

I think what's going on here is that the OHF Washington Monument scene asks your amps, wiring, and breakers to pass a LARGE amount of current for a very long time, about 21 seconds as shown in this SL graph:



The scene finishes with a huge blast at the end. What's likely happening is your breaker is really warm and close to tripping to begin with in that scene, after passing so much current for so long, then the last four seconds and the final bit with content to DC pops it over the edge. The end of that scene asks your bass managed system (not running hot) to produce 124dB, and a large portion of it from dc-3Hz.

A more efficient amp (if that's truly what the IPR is) might work, although the end of that scene is a LOT to ask of an amp @ 2ohms, same for your wiring/breaker.

Take some heart, though - that's about the worst case scenario your system is ever going to see. There really aren't any scenes that compare with that one in terms of intensity & duration.

TIH Cop Car Smash is fun, but isn't close:



HTTYD's Dragon Crash is a powerful effect, but the duration isn't anything close:



WOTW's Plane Crash has deep content, for sure, but doesn't ask for the same sustained output:



In fact, it's hard to find another scene comparable to Olympus Has Fallen's Washington Monument scene.

However, I did find one:

The Last Airbender's Water Wall scene is the only thing that comes close:



It's longer than OHF's WashMon scene (4x longer), but less intense and not as deep.

So, I think if you can get your settings & system dialed in to where you never clip or trip the breaker on the OHF WashMon scene, AND you have all the output you could ever want (even to show off), you'll never have to worry again.
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post #641 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 09:50 AM
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The movie pulse had the server room scene, not as deep but in the teens.
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post #642 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The movie pulse had the server room scene, not as deep but in the teens.

Not a constant duration effect, and not as intense:



That Pulse server room scene just isn't the sub killer we once thought it was. Technological progression is a marvelous thing! smile.gif
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post #643 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

The Last Airbender's Water Wall scene is the only thing that comes close:



It's longer than OHF's WashMon scene (4x longer), but less intense and not as deep.
Great comparison charts, thanks! smile.gif

I like the ending of the Last Airbender - cheesy, yes, but a nice crescendo at the end of the film smile.gif

That end scene made my old amp switch itself off halfway through the scene LoL
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post #644 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 11:23 AM
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Nube.

Plus one.

 

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post #645 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 11:42 AM
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nube, great work. looks like there is a full power shot of direct current or effectively d.c. at near full level. as suspected, that is what probably tripped the breaker. I can't imagine that is any good for the voice coils either.

i suppose some will argue that d.c. content is meant to be there, but that sure looks like a mistake to me.


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post #646 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Carp,

I think what's going on here is that the OHF Washington Monument scene asks your amps, wiring, and breakers to pass a LARGE amount of current for a very long time, about 21 seconds as shown in this SL graph:



The scene finishes with a huge blast at the end. What's likely happening is your breaker is really warm and close to tripping to begin with in that scene, after passing so much current for so long, then the last four seconds and the final bit with content to DC pops it over the edge. The end of that scene asks your bass managed system (not running hot) to produce 124dB, and a large portion of it from dc-3Hz.

A more efficient amp (if that's truly what the IPR is) might work, although the end of that scene is a LOT to ask of an amp @ 2ohms, same for your wiring/breaker.

Take some heart, though - that's about the worst case scenario your system is ever going to see. There really aren't any scenes that compare with that one in terms of intensity & duration.

TIH Cop Car Smash is fun, but isn't close:



HTTYD's Dragon Crash is a powerful effect, but the duration isn't anything close:



WOTW's Plane Crash has deep content, for sure, but doesn't ask for the same sustained output:



In fact, it's hard to find another scene comparable to Olympus Has Fallen's Washington Monument scene.

However, I did find one:

The Last Airbender's Water Wall scene is the only thing that comes close:



It's longer than OHF's WashMon scene (4x longer), but less intense and not as deep.

So, I think if you can get your settings & system dialed in to where you never clip or trip the breaker on the OHF WashMon scene, AND you have all the output you could ever want (even to show off), you'll never have to worry again.


Awesome post Nube, thanks man!!
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post #647 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

The Peavey is class D which is around ~90% efficient compared to the 50-60% of the class H amps. The peavey will still draw 30+ amps though, but one can extract far more power out of the amplifier on a standard 20 amp line with a class D amp before tripping the breaker. smile.gif

Carp - You've got to try the peavey soon. I'm very curious to hear what you think, you will be one of the first to push it hard in 2 ohm stereo and have the woofage to take it.


Yeah, I am really curious what would happen on that same scene with the exact same settings and see what would happen with the Peavey.
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post #648 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

nube, great work. looks like there is a full power shot of direct current or effectively d.c. at near full level. as suspected, that is what probably tripped the breaker. I can't imagine that is any good for the voice coils either.

i suppose some will argue that d.c. content is meant to be there, but that sure looks like a mistake to me.



Yikes man...

I would love to have this scene as my new go to demo, but I don't want to hurt anything.

If I get time today I'm going to run the scene and see if my minidsp is clipping. It looks like that's not the issue though from what you and Nube are saying.
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post #649 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, btw, I heard tons of that chirping sound (the sound my subs make when the CV is clipping) right before the breaker went, louder chirping than I have ever heard. When I dialed it down to 2dbs hot (down from 8 dbs hot) with the house curve turned on (low bass an additional 8db's hot) there was no chirping at all.
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post #650 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Carp,


The scene finishes with a huge blast at the end. What's likely happening is your breaker is really warm and close to tripping to begin with in that scene, after passing so much current for so long, then the last four seconds and the final bit with content to DC pops it over the edge. The end of that scene asks your bass managed system (not running hot) to produce 124dB, and a large portion of it from dc-3Hz.

Wow, man - 124hz at reference with flat bass. eek.gif

Ok, so that would mean with my settings I had the first time through the scene:

Master Volume: 8 under reference
Sub Trim: +8
House Curve: additional 8 db's in the 15-25hz region

So, that first time through the scene I was attempting to hit 130 db's at a very low frequency right? No wonder.

After I turned the bass trim level down 6db's I was then attempting to hit 124 db's. This sounds more doable. That second time through the bass sounded extremely clean and powerful, it was impressive.
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post #651 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Wow, man - 124hz at reference with flat bass. eek.gif

Ok, so that would mean with my settings I had the first time through the scene:

Master Volume: 8 under reference
Sub Trim: +8
House Curve: additional 8 db's in the 15-25hz region

So, that first time through the scene I was attempting to hit 130 db's at a very low frequency right? No wonder.

After I turned the bass trim level down 6db's I was then attempting to hit 124 db's. This sounds more doable. That second time through the bass sounded extremely clean and powerful, it was impressive.


Oops, bad math. Make that 132 db's on first time and 126 second time. I think I could hit 132 db's in here, but not at 20hz and below. That's just a guess I've never measured so I really don't know.
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post #652 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 01:13 PM
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If all those graphs are calibrated the same and I will assume they are then this scene would be the new reference king! Did it get measured at DB yet? I will go look.
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post #653 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 01:15 PM
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That Pulse server room scene just isn't the sub killer we once thought it was. Technological progression is a marvelous thing! smile.gif

Similarly, we've no idea how much further these demanding "benchmark like" scenes can go.

In music, the balance of what one can expect has slowly changed over time. But there are examples, music releases, each of us can likely point to whereby the LF weight and overall balance is much stronger than we'd been accustomed to up to that point. Myself, I remember Ziggy Marly's Conscious Party release, in the late 80's. It redefined my overall bass balance perspective for commercial music releases. As I listen to the CD now, yeah it's bass centric mix, but the relative difference back then was really dramatic. My wife and I became big fans of reggae, and vacationed extensively in Jamaica. I've been fortunate, and I've been involved in some fantastic live music events,...almost Forrest Gump like, wrt being around some extraordinary events. But, hands down, there's nothing like outdoor live reggae in Negril Jamaica.

The scene has changed, however trust me, incredible atmosphere. Thru the 80's and 90's, if one has an affinity for bass, an affinity for live music outdoors ... at the water's edge, the live music scene in Negril was off the chart. Big, thick, tight, bass heavy mixes, that are unencumbered by the acoustic nastiness that plagues indoor events. I mention this because of it re-establishing bass balance for me, and what can be acceptable at a live event. Anyone interested, ping me, I've got more live details from Negril.


I too thought the Olympus Has Fallen soundtrack was demanding, especially that scene. The entire soundtrack was nice, but the big monument scene mentioned, is brutal due to it's length. I've found other scenes and effects really demanding too pleasing too. In particular the RPG launches into the guard shack, that's a big, deep demanding effect subjectively. I'd like to experience the monument scene in a room that was structurally robust enough not to moan and groan as mine did. Everything was set into excitation.



Another pertinent aspect, oversizing branch circuit wiring. I've recommended it for years around here, but amplifier circuits for subwoofers,...upsize the wiring significantly if you want to remove the wiring as a potential choke-point impeding current delivery.

A 20 amp circuit can pass 7-8 times the rated 20amp trip amount, .. for up to a second or more. It will allow up to 3x the rated amount for up to 10sec or so. And most importantly, the same 20amp circuit, can allow up to 1.5-2times the rated amount for a period extending as long as 30 seconds.

* That's over 100amps for around 1-2 seconds, about 60amps for around 10 seconds, and the circuit will allow 30-40amps for as long as 30 seconds! From a 20a breaker.

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post #654 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 02:01 PM
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nube, great work. looks like there is a full power shot of direct current or effectively d.c. at near full level. as suspected, that is what probably tripped the breaker. I can't imagine that is any good for the voice coils either.

i suppose some will argue that d.c. content is meant to be there, but that sure looks like a mistake to me.


The reality is thought that NOBODY is actually reproducing the DC signal. It has been far far attenuated by the time the signal gets to the voice coils of any system. Yes, some of the content down there will leak through but not much.

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post #655 of 873 Old 09-22-2013, 03:32 PM
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Pulse can't be that bad for bass with a 4.75 rating!
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post #656 of 873 Old 09-29-2013, 12:59 AM
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Well Carp I just made it through your whole thread in a few days and I really enjoyed it, learned a lot, and am pumped to continue on mine! Leaving in 5 hrs to go get the 2 submersives, I should get some sleep now!
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post #657 of 873 Old 09-29-2013, 01:02 AM
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Oh, and I'm really glad the damaged submersive worked out. There was a bit of a gap from you giving the damage info to giving the good news about fed ex providing so it was kind of like a cliff hanger smile.gif
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post #658 of 873 Old 09-29-2013, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Well Carp I just made it through your whole thread in a few days and I really enjoyed it, learned a lot, and am pumped to continue on mine! Leaving in 5 hrs to go get the 2 submersives, I should get some sleep now!

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Oh, and I'm really glad the damaged submersive worked out. There was a bit of a gap from you giving the damage info to giving the good news about fed ex providing so it was kind of like a cliff hanger smile.gif


Thanks man, it was a lot of fun figuring out this whole DIY (or AIY) thing.

You should be pumped about getting the Submersives for sure, they are incredible subs. Be sure to post your impressions, I'm sure it would be ok to also do that in the JTR thread, seems most everyone there is pretty laid back about posting non JTR gear. If someone does get their feathers ruffled... screw 'em.

Yeah, I was really shocked that Fedex paid up with all the horror stories I have read/heard about.
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post #659 of 873 Old 09-29-2013, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, this is a first. I had always told people that I don't have any problems with the subs moving around. Well, last night I did a demo for 4 other people and as usual the volume got a little crazy. They were young (mid to early 20's) and were loving Art of Flight - I tripped the breaker 3 times on that clip.

My subs don't have permanent feet on them, I just put 4 feet in between the stacked subs. On one side one of the feet had been wiggled all the way out. This has happened once before but the sub itself didn't move. I'm not sure what clip moved the subs or if it was just a combination of all of the clips.
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post #660 of 873 Old 09-29-2013, 07:12 PM
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Whew! Glad I went dual opposed.

Careful, my friend. wink.gif

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