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post #91 of 876 Old 03-06-2013, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Gorilla83,

I only got two thing to say...

1) Have you unscrewed your bathroom light bulb with your silverbacks?
2) Have you knocked down a bass trap when it 'trapped more than it could handle'???


Cause I personally witnessed your JTR Caps do both in your room , the last time I was there. cool.gif

I've got a couple answers for you sir. biggrin.gif

1) Not yet, but I can do you one better. The silverbacks have knocked glasses off the shelf back at the bar, LOL.
2) Yes, and actually on both sides of the room, hahah. I now have L brackets x 4 as well as industrial velcro on the traps. And that was with gunfire from a movie scene (book of eli), not a sine wave. tongue.gif

My room does not live an easy life, LOL.


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post #92 of 876 Old 03-06-2013, 08:23 AM
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ha...

your drywall is toast. your house is gonna be like one of those old cars with trunk rattling down the road with subs in the back.

So flickle the tickle lets see your seat belt fastened
Trunk rattlin' like two midgets in the back seat wrasling
Speakerbox vibrate the tank, make it sound like aluminum cans in the back.
But I know ya'll wanted that 808 can you feel that B-A-S-S, bass
But I know ya'll wanted that 808 can you feel that B-A-S-S, bass

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #93 of 876 Old 03-06-2013, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

My thinking right now is unless you need to use a higher crossover than 100hz you can't do any better than the SI's. Now, I haven't heard a lot of subs out there, but here are some of the nicer subs I have ever heard:

Submersive duals **
Cap Ported duals **
Cap Sealed duals
Cap 2 Sealed duals
Orbit Shifter duals *
SVS Ultra duals
HSU VTF-15 duals *
Epik Empire
Dayton HO 18" dual opposed*
Stereo Integrity 18" **

* means I have heard them in my room, ** means I owned or own them. With the Orbit Shifter and VTF 15 I heard them on separate occasions, in my own room I just heard singles.

Nice. So you feel the quality of the SI was greater than the quality of these you mentioned? Or is it "quality per dollar"? If we were to remove all price tags on items, would you feel that the SI outperforms the other top of the line subs?

Also, you should pick up a Dayton and share your thoughts. lol

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post #94 of 876 Old 03-06-2013, 09:00 AM
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You know Carp, its threads like this that make me hate the subwoofer biz. I read about how you love the Cap and the output and the quality (Arch as well), sell my Empire, and buy a SINGLE Cap all because of you (not really but makes for a better post). But after reading this thread and the epicness of it all....

cool.gif
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post #95 of 876 Old 03-06-2013, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Carp - PLEASE get 4 of them done soon, I'm dying to read what you think once you get them up and powered properly. smile.gif Oh, and once you do make sure Jonathan is around. biggrin.gif

Yeah, I can't wait. My plan was to put 2 more boxes together last night but other things came up so I still have 5 boxes to finish. Once all 5 are done I'm going to sand and paint and then fire them all up so I'm going to go from 1 to 8. biggrin.gif

I think Jonathan will always prefer the sound of the Cap. There is a distinct difference in that sound (as you know) the ported Cap makes that just does it for him.


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post #96 of 876 Old 03-06-2013, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice. So you feel the quality of the SI was greater than the quality of these you mentioned? Or is it "quality per dollar"? If we were to remove all price tags on items, would you feel that the SI outperforms the other top of the line subs?

Also, you should pick up a Dayton and share your thoughts. lol

From the first time I heard the Submersive I thought it was the best sounding musical (whatever that means) subwoofer I had heard. Over time I heard many other subs and many sounded almost as good, but not quite. It wasn't until I had the dual opposed Dayton in my room that I heard a sub that I thought sounded as good for music and the same goes for the SI so far. I will say that the sealed caps sound great for music too. The ported cap is great too, but I always preferred how it did with movies over music.

Ha, speaking of that I was on parts express buying more speaker wire and it gave me the message that if I spent 16 more bucks I could get free shipping. For a brief moment I thought about buying a Dayton HO driver to throw into one of these boxes to compare, I know it's slightly smaller than the SI so it should fit into the cutout for the SI. I came to my senses and didn't do it though. biggrin.gif


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post #97 of 876 Old 03-06-2013, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ratm View Post

You know Carp, its threads like this that make me hate the subwoofer biz. I read about how you love the Cap and the output and the quality (Arch as well), sell my Empire, and buy a SINGLE Cap all because of you (not really but makes for a better post). But after reading this thread and the epicness of it all....cool.gif

Haha, nice. Yeah... you might want to stop reading my posts. I have seriously lost my mind. eek.gif


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post #98 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I got one more box done last night. So, I have 1 sub completely done and 3 boxes that are done but haven't been sanded/duratex yet. 4 have the bracing done but that's it. For the first time I did one all by myself last night and it really wasn't bad at all thanks to the brad nailer. The only tricky part was the front baffle as it swam around furiously in it's pool of glue while I tried to get it clamped/nailed square.


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post #99 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Carp - PLEASE get 4 of them done soon, I'm dying to read what you think once you get them up and powered properly. smile.gif Oh, and once you do make sure Jonathan is around. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

You know Carp, its threads like this that make me hate the subwoofer biz. I read about how you love the Cap and the output and the quality (Arch as well), sell my Empire, and buy a SINGLE Cap all because of you (not really but makes for a better post). But after reading this thread and the epicness of it all....
cool.gif
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Haha, nice. Yeah... you might want to stop reading my posts. I have seriously lost my mind. eek.gif

I think the theme of the story is…DIY is the end result for true bass heads. Look at where most have been and where they are now. I still have mad respect for offerings such as the Noesis, Orbit Shifter, etc… because they offer great value for the $, but man, DIY still takes the cake.

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I got one more box done last night. So, I have 1 sub completely done and 3 boxes that are done but haven't been sanded/duratex yet. 4 have the bracing done but that's it. For the first time I did one all by myself last night and it really wasn't bad at all thanks to the brad nailer. The only tricky part was the front baffle as it swam around furiously in it's pool of glue while I tried to get it clamped/nailed square.


Congrats man! I hear you on the glue issue. Be sure you re-check once you clamp because it can still slip before it officially sets.

 

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post #100 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 09:20 AM
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I think the theme of the story is…DIY is the end result for true bass heads. Look at where most have been and where they are now. I still have mad respect for offerings such as the Noesis, Orbit Shifter, etc… because they offer great value for the $, but man, DIY still takes the cake.
I was going to go to submersives or caps (from my current set up of two VTF 15's and two PC Utras) After following a lot of you through your journey I've now decided to skip that last ID step and go right to DIY. My current set up only lasted a month or two....seems my fate has been sealed a long time ago and just didn't know it...lol...like a lot of you.
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post #101 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

I was going to go to submersives or caps (from my current set up of two VTF 15's and two PC Utras) After following a lot of you through your journey I've now decided to skip that last ID step and go right to DIY. My current set up only lasted a month or two....seems my fate has been sealed a long time ago and just didn't know it...lol...like a lot of you.

No doubt! Check my sig. Got a lot of people to tell their story and I'm interested in hearing yours! Still need Carp to outline his journey too! Maybe it will save some other poor schmuck like us some time and money by skipping straight to the good stuff...

tongue.gif

 

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post #102 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I really never thought I would go DIY. If the Daytons or SI drivers and flat packs didn't exist I still wouldn't have.

DIY is cheaper, but IMO not by a lot until these drivers became available. If I was spending 500 per driver the savings would make it much less worth it to me, I would have stuck with Seaton or JTR. I thought about getting 2 more submersives to have quads or sell my submersives and buy dual Cap 2 Sealed or dual Orbit shifters and if these new drivers didn't show up I'd probably be saving up for one of those options.


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post #103 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 09:59 AM
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It's sure a lot cheaper if you build the damn box yourself. wink.giftongue.gif


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post #104 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 10:32 AM
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Carp,

Thanks for the photos. Now you just need kill'em all and you will have the best 4 albums they put out.

James
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post #105 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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James, I meant to post a closer shot but I've been so busy putting subs together!!

I agree, Kill 'em All is one of their best 4 albums but for me there is no topping the holy trinity. Something about those 3 albums - they never get old and will always be my favorites.

Hey - if you haven't already, check out my metal thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450268/the-metal-heads-thread#post_22795944


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post #106 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

James, I meant to post a closer shot but I've been so busy putting subs together!!

I agree, Kill 'em All is one of their best 4 albums but for me there is no topping the holy trinity. Something about those 3 albums - they never get old and will always be my favorites.

Hey - if you haven't already, check out my metal thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450268/the-metal-heads-thread#post_22795944

Carp,

Not a problem at all. I understand the work on the subs comes first and it appears there is a lot to do with the setup you have selected.

I will check out that thread you posted above.

James
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post #107 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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It's sure a lot cheaper if you build the damn box yourself. wink.giftongue.gif

Good point, that would have made it a lot cheaper to do 8 boxes. However I wouldn't have done DIY in that case so it would have been irrelevant for me.

The more I think about placement options the happier I am that I went with 8 singles instead of 4 dual opposed. That and the weight. The sub I have built seems very light!! Kevin's dual opposed Dayton is soooo much heavier. I don't think mine is much over 100 pounds, hell my speakers are noticeably heavier.

Now, I am jealous of his inert box and savings with building less boxes so there is always trade-offs.


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post #108 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yeah, I really never thought I would go DIY. If the Daytons or SI drivers and flat packs didn't exist I still wouldn't have.
DIY is cheaper, but IMO not by a lot until these drivers became available. If I was spending 500 per driver the savings would make it much less worth it to me, I would have stuck with Seaton or JTR. I thought about getting 2 more submersives to have quads or sell my submersives and buy dual Cap 2 Sealed or dual Orbit shifters and if these new drivers didn't show up I'd probably be saving up for one of those options.

AIY… I think that was coined by our boy Edogg. Lolz

I hear you on the cost front man. When I bought my LMS-U's I bought them with the intention of having the best, and simply adding more if I needed to. We'll $925 a pop + all of the power those hungry ba$tards need would mean at least $3K for every extra pair I bought…and that's building my own boxes. I spent less buying 16 of the SI's vs. what I would have if I bought quad LMS-U's (taking power requirements into consideration).

Luke's Gjallerhorn build does have me intrigued though. Based on Data-Bass (and MK's calculations) one GH has the output of 4 sealed LMS-U's from 16-40Hz! Given the capability of the JTR Subs, I have to assume the OS would measure similarly to the GH. Meaning, one OS should have comparable(ish) output to 8 of the SI drivers… (WoW!)

So yeah, the SI's may have a price/performance advantage, but when you put it in perspective (and you have the room for one LARGE enclosure) there may be other extremely viable alternatives.

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It's sure a lot cheaper if you build the damn box yourself. wink.giftongue.gif

Man, I would have had to buy 16 flat packs from erich. Adds up quick for sure. It still took 16 sheets of ply to build my boxes and I think the overall cost may be in the neighborhood of $1,100ish.

 

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post #109 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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AIY… I think that was coined by our boy Edogg. Lolz

I hear you on the cost front man. When I bought my LMS-U's I bought them with the intention of having the best, and simply adding more if I needed to. We'll $925 a pop + all of the power those hungry ba$tards need would mean at least $3K for every extra pair I bought…and that's building my own boxes. I spent less buying 16 of the SI's vs. what I would have if I bought quad LMS-U's (taking power requirements into consideration).

Luke's Gjallerhorn build does have me intrigued though. Based on Data-Bass (and MK's calculations) one GH has the output of 4 sealed LMS-U's from 16-40Hz! Given the capability of the JTR Subs, I have to assume the OS would measure similarly to the GH. Meaning, one OS should have comparable(ish) output to 8 of the SI drivers… (WoW!)

So yeah, the SI's may have a price/performance advantage, but when you put it in perspective (and you have the room for one LARGE enclosure) there may be other extremely viable alternatives.
Man, I would have had to buy 16 flat packs from erich. Adds up quick for sure. It still took 16 sheets of ply to build my boxes and I think the overall cost may be in the neighborhood of $1,100ish.

That's what I was thinking, my 8 SI subs will have roughly the same output as an Orbit Shifter above 20hz but more below and the huge advantage of smoothing the frequency response.

I spent 1100ish for 8 flat packs so yeah huge savings if you cut your own boxes. Maybe someday but I'm not ready for that.

Most first time builds I see here I see comments like, "I used to build sub boxes for my car", or "I haven't built speakers but I'm decently handy and have the tools" or something along those lines. I don't fall into those categories. I have no experience, no skill, no tools (or very little), no nothin'. For a guy like me flat packs change everything.
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post #110 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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AIY… I think that was coined by our boy Edogg. Lolz

I hear you on the cost front man. When I bought my LMS-U's I bought them with the intention of having the best, and simply adding more if I needed to. We'll $925 a pop + all of the power those hungry ba$tards need would mean at least $3K for every extra pair I bought…and that's building my own boxes. I spent less buying 16 of the SI's vs. what I would have if I bought quad LMS-U's (taking power requirements into consideration).

Luke's Gjallerhorn build does have me intrigued though. Based on Data-Bass (and MK's calculations) one GH has the output of 4 sealed LMS-U's from 16-40Hz! Given the capability of the JTR Subs, I have to assume the OS would measure similarly to the GH. Meaning, one OS should have comparable(ish) output to 8 of the SI drivers… (WoW!)

So yeah, the SI's may have a price/performance advantage, but when you put it in perspective (and you have the room for one LARGE enclosure) there may be other extremely viable alternatives.
Man, I would have had to buy 16 flat packs from erich. Adds up quick for sure. It still took 16 sheets of ply to build my boxes and I think the overall cost may be in the neighborhood of $1,100ish.

That's what I was thinking, my 8 SI subs will have roughly the same output as an Orbit Shifter above 20hz but more below and the huge advantage of smoothing the frequency response.

I spent 1100ish for 8 flat packs so yeah huge savings if you cut your own boxes. Maybe someday but I'm not ready for that.

Most first time builds I see here I see comments like, "I used to build sub boxes for my car", or "I haven't built speakers but I'm decently handy and have the tools" or something along those lines. I don't fall into those categories. I have no experience, no skill, no tools (or very little), no nothin'. For a guy like me flat packs change everything.


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post #111 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 02:12 PM
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Good point, that would have made it a lot cheaper to do 8 boxes. However I wouldn't have done DIY in that case so it would have been irrelevant for me.

The more I think about placement options the happier I am that I went with 8 singles instead of 4 dual opposed. That and the weight. The sub I have built seems very light!! Kevin's dual opposed Dayton is soooo much heavier. I don't think mine is much over 100 pounds, hell my speakers are noticeably heavier.

Now, I am jealous of his inert box and savings with building less boxes so there is always trade-offs.

Oh I understand. I'm totally okay with it as it brings a whole new group of people into the DIY world. A lot of you new guys, the AIY crew tongue.gif, would still be using the ID selection right now and I can tell 100% of you are happy with your decision to try out making your own speakers and subwoofers. It's a great way to make more of this hobby. I've been DIY for nearly half my life now and I'll never turn back. It's rewarding in so many ways.

But still.... I can tease y'all a bit. smile.gif


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post #112 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 02:16 PM
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have you packed one of those enclosures with fiberglass for an a-b comparo?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #113 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 02:38 PM
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It's sure a lot cheaper if you build the damn box yourself. wink.giftongue.gif

thats only if you dont cont the cost of the table saw and router some of us would have had to purchase wink.gif


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post #114 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

AIY… I think that was coined by our boy Edogg. Lolz
Its patent pending, so use it while you still can. tongue.gif

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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Oh I understand. I'm totally okay with it as it brings a whole new group of people into the DIY world. A lot of you new guys, the AIY crew tongue.gif, would still be using the ID selection right now

But still.... I can tease y'all a bit. smile.gif

PUNK! biggrin.gif

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post #115 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 04:18 PM
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The thing about multiples, many multiples, ... is the need for absolute driver quality is lessened.

When one considers the actual differences in design,.(be it Bl non-linearities with both excursion and drive current, soft-part non linearities, de-modulating ring efforts, etc ... all the above), moving from a single 18" pushed to the limit, to a set of four, or a set of eight ... the driver quality/output quality paradigm changes somewhat.

In these multi-sub systems, for nearly all the playback scenarios, the excursion remains so slight, even for high SPL playback. Obviously there's exceptions, with mammoth pulses of energy that can accompany the big effects. Then, by design, systems such as these handle them without encountering the ragged edge ... therein lies the beauty cool.gif




Yep, some build the church for Sunday worship ... and the congregation is comfy year round. However they're a bit uncomfortably packed wall-to-wall on Easter Sunday.

On the other hand ... some build the church for Easter Sunday. cool.gif






edit; I do realize I'm preaching to the choir

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #116 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

The thing about multiples, many multiples, ... is the need for absolute driver quality is lessened.

When one considers the actual differences in design,.(be it Bl non-linearities with both excursion and drive current, soft-part non linearities, de-modulating ring efforts, etc ... all the above), moving from a single 18" pushed to the limit, to a set of four, or a set of eight ... the driver quality/output quality paradigm changes somewhat.

In these multi-sub systems, for nearly all the playback scenarios, the excursion remains so slight, even for high SPL playback. Obviously there's exceptions, with mammoth pulses of energy that can accompany the big effects. Then, by design, systems such as these handle them without encountering the ragged edge ... therein lies the beauty cool.gif




Yep, some build the church for Sunday worship ... and the congregation is comfy year round. However they're a bit uncomfortably packed wall-to-wall on Easter Sunday.

On the other hand ... some build the church for Easter Sunday. cool.gif






edit; I do realize I'm preaching to the choir


It's this kind of post gets me even more pumped to fire up all 8 but at the same time makes me frustrated because I told myself I'd build another box or 2 tonight but other things came up. I HAVE to get these done soon, I'm so curious to find out what it's going to be like.


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post #117 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

A lot of you new guys, the AIY crew tongue.gif,

I was like confused.gif and then like biggrin.gif

LOL.

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post #118 of 876 Old 03-07-2013, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

That's what I was thinking, my 8 SI subs will have roughly the same output as an Orbit Shifter above 20hz but more below and the huge advantage of smoothing the frequency response.

I spent 1100ish for 8 flat packs so yeah huge savings if you cut your own boxes. Maybe someday but I'm not ready for that.

Most first time builds I see here I see comments like, "I used to build sub boxes for my car", or "I haven't built speakers but I'm decently handy and have the tools" or something along those lines. I don't fall into those categories. I have no experience, no skill, no tools (or very little), no nothin'. For a guy like me flat packs change everything.

That was/is our thinking too: Higher linear displacement equals more output (within sealed box measurements/volumes and/or ported volumes per given tuning frequency). In our case our driver is a more affordable driver all the way around compared to its competition while providing more output (and less amplifier power). It's good to see that our drivers are a good match for the flat packs! biggrin.gif
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post #119 of 876 Old 03-08-2013, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post

That was/is our thinking too: Higher linear displacement equals more output (within sealed box measurements/volumes and/or ported volumes per given tuning frequency). In our case our driver is a more affordable driver all the way around compared to its competition while providing more output (and less amplifier power). It's good to see that our drivers are a good match for the flat packs! biggrin.gif

I was talking to mrsmithers about your drivers and the Daytons and we don't get it. Is there some new technology that has become available that allows drivers with this much capability to be so cheap? Correct me if I'm wrong, but up until these 2 drivers came out you would have to spend closer to 500 bucks per driver to have this output and sound. Now you can have great sound quality and huge output for either 249 shipped or 190 (regular price) plus shipping. Amazing. Of course I understand that you wouldn't want to post any specific design differences that are unique to the SI's, I'm just wondering if you can speak generally why you can get such great sound for so little and why this seems to just now be the case.

I can tell you this, the fact that the Daytons and SI's came out pushed me over the edge into DIY and I bet a lot of other people could say the same.


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post #120 of 876 Old 03-08-2013, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I don't get it... what does AIY mean? redface.gifsmile.gif


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