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Old 03-11-2013, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

I thought Luke was the one in need of an intervention?!?!

Don't worry, I'm not buying any more subs. This has to be it, the bass down to 30hz is ridiculous right now with 4 drivers and I trust FOH that all will be well with the minidsp and 4 more drivers for the stuff below 30hz so I'm sure I'm good to go.

Throwing the BS flag right now...
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ratm View Post

Throwing the BS flag right now...

+1...lol. Especially when you have already envisioned being able to squeeze in 4 more..

I usually wait for Scott to say this, then I chime in with the typical "never say never" comment...

But seriously, I hope 8 will do it for you.
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

+1...lol. Especially when you have already envisioned being able to squeeze in 4 more..

I usually wait for Scott to say this, then I chime in with the typical "never say never" comment...

But seriously, I hope 8 will do it for you.

Exactly, just buy 50 more and surround the whole room with them..
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Man your room is so sexy. I really have to stop visiting these threads or I'm going to buy new mains.
Awesome job, really. Your stage looks perfect.

Thanks Greg. I think the next step will be false wall but the problem with that is I like to see the speakers/subs so who knows.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

When tested by Ricci, and similar to most any small-sealed, the native response plunges like a rock in the low 30's ... just as does yours. However, when examining your measurements, you can see the native plunge all the sudden take a detour upon the onset of PVG around 24hz or so. Which, doing some simple calculations, 1130/24hz=47.08 You take that and divide it in half, 47.08/2=23.54hz. This is the calculated approx. onset of PVG.

So after the normal small box boosting/LT'ing is added back in, then you'll be fine. Unless you're rocking an IB, or a huge box, you're going to see this drop off.


Back to your room's PVG; when I look at the aggregate graph of all the positioning, I estimated the 24hz point visually. Around this point is the lowest freq of which can propagate freely. Any freq lower than that point, can't fully propagate, hence the pressure vessel gain ... Physically, the longest dimension of the room can no longer support full propagation of the waveform. So somewhere around 23hz-24hz, the normal propagation transitions to pressurization. The wave reproduction changes from a normal cyclic propagation, to pressurization because the wavelengths are too big for the space.

This is key; the frequency at which this occurs is approximately the point whereby half the wavelength of a given frequency is equal to the rooms longest dimension. So looking back to previous post, seeing the longest room dimension is around 23 feet. That said, and after calculation, the transition from propagation to pressurization will occur around 23hz-24hz. This is because a 24hz waveform is (1130/24)= ~47'. Half of that is 23.5', correlating to the longest dimension of your room. This is the point of transition. Any frequency below that point begins to pressurize the room, and any frequency above that point propagates freely.


So the room gives back acoustically. One of the few examples of free lunch in audio; PVG. This reciprocity is theoretically 12db per octave. The percentage of the 12 db/octave gain one achieves, seems to entirely depend on the integrity of the boundary walls and surfaces. For example, a full tilt concrete bunker should yield a full 12db/octave boost. Typically, it seems as if somewhere between 6-10 db octave may may achievable. Also, in addition to the boundary movement/flexing, other elements can affect the onset point. And anything that consumes a certain measure of cubic feet (furniture, cabinets, etc), may slightly alter the transition merely due to occupying cubic volume.


*
Then there's another component at play, and this is very cool. A distortion lowering mechanism is a by product of the vessel gain. It would seem the acoustic reciprocity elicits a greater proportion of acoustic gain to the deep fundamental freq, moreso than that of the harmonic distortion aspects up higher. In other words, it only makes sense that any fundamental occurring below the PVG onset point, would be subject to the normal PVG, however the harmonics of the fundamental land above the transition, thus they receive much less acoustic gain. Sweet, .. have your cake and eat it too.
Context;
You're going to have plenty, I'm sure of it. It's easy to loose context around these parts. Eight eighteens, yeah, (8)18s ... hell, the vast majority of enthusiasts don't even use more than one sub,....of any size. You'll have plenty. Looking at DataBass' system charts, the SI system equated to the Velodyne DD18 @20hz (which by any technical measure is superb). They're $4999msrp, you can equal it's output with one box. Doubling to two yields 6dB, moving to 4 yields another 6dB, escalating up to 8 sums to another 6dB ... totaling +18dB over that of a single sub. That's a single, high performance 18" high excursion sub ... plus 18dB cool.gif


Ample headroom and output isn't the question. The real task at hand is the proper integration of a phenomenal subwoofer system, with those highly capable mains, into the strongly dominant influence that is your room. But you can largely win that one.



Best of luck

edited "@20hz", wrt the Velo DD18 for added clarity

I read this again today to try to wrap my head around it.

Sorry for the elementary questions, but I want to understand.

What does PVG stand for? And it basically refers to the fact that the room gives gain down low, typically 6-10 db's?
So, the propogation of the waveform transitions in my room to pressurization in the mid/low 20hz region. What is the difference between propogation and pressurization? The wavelength doesn't cycle anymore? I just can't visualize what you are explaining... and not sure I have the capability to do so.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:21 PM
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PVG-Pressure Vessel Gain (the pressurization part of it). This is the freq. when your doors to the room are going to start flapping and the you seem to almost "feel" more than "hear"

Technically speaking this is how most of us have been getting flat to 10hz and beyond without a ridiculous amount of eqing. The speaker's native response outdoors or something wouldn't be capable of that at all, in a sealed orientation that is.

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Old 03-12-2013, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

When tested by Ricci, and similar to most any small-sealed, the native response plunges like a rock in the low 30's ... just as does yours. However, when examining your measurements, you can see the native plunge all the sudden take a detour upon the onset of PVG around 24hz or so. Which, doing some simple calculations, 1130/24hz=47.08 You take that and divide it in half, 47.08/2=23.54hz. This is the calculated approx. onset of PVG.

So after the normal small box boosting/LT'ing is added back in, then you'll be fine. Unless you're rocking an IB, or a huge box, you're going to see this drop off.


Back to your room's PVG; when I look at the aggregate graph of all the positioning, I estimated the 24hz point visually. Around this point is the lowest freq of which can propagate freely. Any freq lower than that point, can't fully propagate, hence the pressure vessel gain ... Physically, the longest dimension of the room can no longer support full propagation of the waveform. So somewhere around 23hz-24hz, the normal propagation transitions to pressurization. The wave reproduction changes from a normal cyclic propagation, to pressurization because the wavelengths are too big for the space.

This is key; the frequency at which this occurs is approximately the point whereby half the wavelength of a given frequency is equal to the rooms longest dimension. So looking back to previous post, seeing the longest room dimension is around 23 feet. That said, and after calculation, the transition from propagation to pressurization will occur around 23hz-24hz. This is because a 24hz waveform is (1130/24)= ~47'. Half of that is 23.5', correlating to the longest dimension of your room. This is the point of transition. Any frequency below that point begins to pressurize the room, and any frequency above that point propagates freely.


So the room gives back acoustically. One of the few examples of free lunch in audio; PVG. This reciprocity is theoretically 12db per octave. The percentage of the 12 db/octave gain one achieves, seems to entirely depend on the integrity of the boundary walls and surfaces. For example, a full tilt concrete bunker should yield a full 12db/octave boost. Typically, it seems as if somewhere between 6-10 db octave may may achievable. Also, in addition to the boundary movement/flexing, other elements can affect the onset point. And anything that consumes a certain measure of cubic feet (furniture, cabinets, etc), may slightly alter the transition merely due to occupying cubic volume.


*
Then there's another component at play, and this is very cool. A distortion lowering mechanism is a by product of the vessel gain. It would seem the acoustic reciprocity elicits a greater proportion of acoustic gain to the deep fundamental freq, moreso than that of the harmonic distortion aspects up higher. In other words, it only makes sense that any fundamental occurring below the PVG onset point, would be subject to the normal PVG, however the harmonics of the fundamental land above the transition, thus they receive much less acoustic gain. Sweet, .. have your cake and eat it too.
Context;
You're going to have plenty, I'm sure of it. It's easy to loose context around these parts. Eight eighteens, yeah, (8)18s ... hell, the vast majority of enthusiasts don't even use more than one sub,....of any size. You'll have plenty. Looking at DataBass' system charts, the SI system equated to the Velodyne DD18 @20hz (which by any technical measure is superb). They're $4999msrp, you can equal it's output with one box. Doubling to two yields 6dB, moving to 4 yields another 6dB, escalating up to 8 sums to another 6dB ... totaling +18dB over that of a single sub. That's a single, high performance 18" high excursion sub ... plus 18dB cool.gif


Ample headroom and output isn't the question. The real task at hand is the proper integration of a phenomenal subwoofer system, with those highly capable mains, into the strongly dominant influence that is your room. But you can largely win that one.



Best of luck

edited "@20hz", wrt the Velo DD18 for added clarity

Hi FOH,

Yes, this is the theory that's been used as the explanation for why sealed subs have a rising response below their knee in-room vs GP.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to reconcile it with any posted in-room measurements. In the past few years, with OM and other low cost measurement hardware/software/freeware options, many more in-room graphs have been posted, many of which I've archived against the modeled and GP measured responses.

Carp is seeing room gain begin where virtually everyone else does, regardless of the "longest dimension of the room"... in the 30s Hz. He's seeing an almost identical amount of gain as I (and notnyt, Josh, MKT, etc.) do, around 8dB/octave, beginning in the 30s Hz in rooms ranging from 2200 cubes to 6000 cubes, some open to the rest of the hose and some in an enclosed room..



I've stopped calling the phenomenon PVG and I don't believe subwoofers "pressurize" a room. Instead, they send pressure waves through the room. The gain is related to the phenomenon of progressively constructive reflections. Reflections can be constructive or destructive. As the wavelength increases, there is less chance of them being destructive and they become more and more constructive.

The evidence becomes clear when someone has been kind enough (as Carp has in this thread) to include us in his multiple placement/measuring exercise. If there was a frequency below which the room becomes everywhere pressurized, causing this PVG phenomenon, he would not be seeing 6dB differences within the so-called pressure vessel gain region simply by moving the subs, as he (and everyone else who has engaged in this exercise in his own room) clearly has shown is the case.

I have not been able to match the onset of the wavelength whose length is twice my rooms longest dimension to any measurement I've made with the subs in any location(s) in my room in 10 years. In fact, room gain begins in my room an octave above that theoretical PVG point.

Carp,

If you get the time or inclination, could you run a loopback of the SW out of your AVR? Also, I never understood the wisdom of searching for the flattest response while moving the subs around but excluding your mains. Since your mains are pretty much immovable for the best soundstage, it would be wise to include them in this placement exercise. Otherwise, you may find the perfect sub location and switch on the mains to find a terrible crossover region response.

Once you've got the best location of subs with mains, use the distance delay setting and crossover point selection setting to find the smoothest response through cross... before final EQ smoothing.

Just a suggestion that I've found works best for me, FWIW.

Awesome system, nice space, great thread. Thanks for sharing it all.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:20 PM
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OT of the subs, sorry but can you compare your noesis to any other JTRs? That outline of the vents behind the grill made me think that's what they were but hadn't seen a pic of them until your thread.

Edit
I just found the reviews and some other stuff you posted. Man, I want but would have to rebuild baffle wall and wouldn't technically match the single 8hts I have for surrounds though I'd get over that part quite quickly most likely.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Carp,

If you get the time or inclination, could you run a loopback of the SW out of your AVR?

Carp, I'm not sure if you recall, but we did this when I brought the Daytons and the miniDPS over for testing. I don't seem to have it saved, do you?
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Hi FOH,

Yes, this is the theory that's been used as the explanation for why sealed subs have a rising response below their knee in-room vs GP.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to reconcile it with any posted in-room measurements. In the past few years, with OM and other low cost measurement hardware/software/freeware options, many more in-room graphs have been posted, many of which I've archived against the modeled and GP measured responses.

Carp is seeing room gain begin where virtually everyone else does, regardless of the "longest dimension of the room"... in the 30s Hz. He's seeing an almost identical amount of gain as I (and notnyt, Josh, MKT, etc.) do, around 8dB/octave, beginning in the 30s Hz in rooms ranging from 2200 cubes to 6000 cubes, some open to the rest of the hose and some in an enclosed room..



I've stopped calling the phenomenon PVG and I don't believe subwoofers "pressurize" a room. Instead, they send pressure waves through the room. The gain is related to the phenomenon of progressively constructive reflections. Reflections can be constructive or destructive. As the wavelength increases, there is less chance of them being destructive and they become more and more constructive.

The evidence becomes clear when someone has been kind enough (as Carp has in this thread) to include us in his multiple placement/measuring exercise. If there was a frequency below which the room becomes everywhere pressurized, causing this PVG phenomenon, he would not be seeing 6dB differences within the so-called pressure vessel gain region simply by moving the subs, as he (and everyone else who has engaged in this exercise in his own room) clearly has shown is the case.

I have not been able to match the onset of the wavelength whose length is twice my rooms longest dimension to any measurement I've made with the subs in any location(s) in my room in 10 years. In fact, room gain begins in my room an octave above that theoretical PVG point.

Carp,

If you get the time or inclination, could you run a loopback of the SW out of your AVR? Also, I never understood the wisdom of searching for the flattest response while moving the subs around but excluding your mains. Since your mains are pretty much immovable for the best soundstage, it would be wise to include them in this placement exercise. Otherwise, you may find the perfect sub location and switch on the mains to find a terrible crossover region response.

Once you've got the best location of subs with mains, use the distance delay setting and crossover point selection setting to find the smoothest response through cross... before final EQ smoothing.

Just a suggestion that I've found works best for me, FWIW.

Awesome system, nice space, great thread. Thanks for sharing it all.

Bosso/FOH,

I think that both are correct. For sure whatever PVG is taking place is adding 'boost' below the wavelength corresponding to the longest dimension. But in the other two dimensions it is contributing as well to a certain extent, and I would bet it has something to do with bosso's 'early entry' into PVG (or whatever we want to call it). IIRC, Bosso has a long-ish room, meaning the length dimension is longer than width and height, so it is possible he may be seeing the effects from w+h earlier. But his room is far from rectangular with the alcoves, so hard to say...

PVG talk is very generalized, and usually assumes much. As measurements have shown and Bosso has pointed out, it is more complex than most think, as rarely does someone have a room with as much symmetry in materials and dimensions as theory would like...remember WarpDrv's dip in FR that was hard to explain?
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:03 AM
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Compared to what my subs graph looked like before EQ, I think you have an amazing starting point. Try running audyssey with all 4 up front like you had before (IIRC that looked the best) and take a measurement. I'll have a feeling itll smooth it out quite a bit.

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Old 03-13-2013, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

PVG-Pressure Vessel Gain (the pressurization part of it). This is the freq. when your doors to the room are going to start flapping and the you seem to almost "feel" more than "hear"

Technically speaking this is how most of us have been getting flat to 10hz and beyond without a ridiculous amount of eqing. The speaker's native response outdoors or something wouldn't be capable of that at all, in a sealed orientation that is.

Thanks Brandon. Ok, so I guess my next item of business after finishing the subs will be not be a false wall/AT screen, it will be to buy solid doors.

The door at the top of my half stair case already goes crazy during movies - especially demos and that is with using weather stripping so that it shuts really tight. That weather stripping helped a LOT, but if I could hear the door rattling with dual Submersives I know it's going to get crazy now.

Any of you guys go from hollow to solid doors? Did it help a lot?
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Hi FOH,

Yes, this is the theory that's been used as the explanation for why sealed subs have a rising response below their knee in-room vs GP.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to reconcile it with any posted in-room measurements. In the past few years, with OM and other low cost measurement hardware/software/freeware options, many more in-room graphs have been posted, many of which I've archived against the modeled and GP measured responses.

Carp is seeing room gain begin where virtually everyone else does, regardless of the "longest dimension of the room"... in the 30s Hz. He's seeing an almost identical amount of gain as I (and notnyt, Josh, MKT, etc.) do, around 8dB/octave, beginning in the 30s Hz in rooms ranging from 2200 cubes to 6000 cubes, some open to the rest of the hose and some in an enclosed room..



I've stopped calling the phenomenon PVG and I don't believe subwoofers "pressurize" a room. Instead, they send pressure waves through the room. The gain is related to the phenomenon of progressively constructive reflections. Reflections can be constructive or destructive. As the wavelength increases, there is less chance of them being destructive and they become more and more constructive.

The evidence becomes clear when someone has been kind enough (as Carp has in this thread) to include us in his multiple placement/measuring exercise. If there was a frequency below which the room becomes everywhere pressurized, causing this PVG phenomenon, he would not be seeing 6dB differences within the so-called pressure vessel gain region simply by moving the subs, as he (and everyone else who has engaged in this exercise in his own room) clearly has shown is the case.

I have not been able to match the onset of the wavelength whose length is twice my rooms longest dimension to any measurement I've made with the subs in any location(s) in my room in 10 years. In fact, room gain begins in my room an octave above that theoretical PVG point.

Carp,

If you get the time or inclination, could you run a loopback of the SW out of your AVR? Also, I never understood the wisdom of searching for the flattest response while moving the subs around but excluding your mains. Since your mains are pretty much immovable for the best soundstage, it would be wise to include them in this placement exercise. Otherwise, you may find the perfect sub location and switch on the mains to find a terrible crossover region response.

Once you've got the best location of subs with mains, use the distance delay setting and crossover point selection setting to find the smoothest response through cross... before final EQ smoothing.

Just a suggestion that I've found works best for me, FWIW.

Awesome system, nice space, great thread. Thanks for sharing it all.


Thanks for the input and compliments Bosso.

Yeah, I should have done all the measurements with the speakers on... not real sure why I didn't. I hope to have the other 4 subs done by this weekend and then I'm going to do some more measuring and I'll make sure the mains are on this time. I've never had too many issues at the crossover point in the past, keeping my fingers crossed that that will still be the case. However, I have always had a dip at 100hz (with subs in the front of the room only) no matter where the crossover is and even running mains large no sub, but putting subs in the back of the room looks like it is going to help a lot with that. Before I bought an Omnimic I use to have a pair of Captivators under the side surrounds and I liked that for music but hated it for movies, it felt like there was no lower end. It's good to see that what I was feeling/hearing matches up with the measurements now that I can see it on the graph.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

OT of the subs, sorry but can you compare your noesis to any other JTRs? That outline of the vents behind the grill made me think that's what they were but hadn't seen a pic of them until your thread.

Edit
I just found the reviews and some other stuff you posted. Man, I want but would have to rebuild baffle wall and wouldn't technically match the single 8hts I have for surrounds though I'd get over that part quite quickly most likely.

I know you said you found some reviews, but I'll say it anyway.

For me there is a huge difference. When I had eD 12's I heard the 888's and I wasn't even curious enough to see exactly how much they cost. I'm not saying I didn't like them, and I did like them better than my eD's but it wasn't enough to get my attention and make me want to upgrade.

When I heard the Noesis 212's I knew I had to have them, and even though I'm not rolling in dough I had no issues/regrets about spending a ton of money for them. For me the main reason was how they sound with music. I don't know if it's the low crossover, compression driver, Jeff's specific design, or what but whatever it is it seems like they were made for my taste when it comes to music. I listen to music all the time, so for me it's worth it since I'll be getting my money's worth for many years to come.

Also, they are the best sounding movie speaker I have heard, but IMO if all I did was watch movies the 228 Noesis would have been plenty.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

Carp, I'm not sure if you recall, but we did this when I brought the Daytons and the miniDPS over for testing. I don't seem to have it saved, do you?

I'll check my computer when I get home to see what i have saved. I didn't know what Bosso meant so I was going to ask him until I saw your post. Is that where he tested to see how much drop off my receiver had below 20hz?
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady195 View Post

Compared to what my subs graph looked like before EQ, I think you have an amazing starting point. Try running audyssey with all 4 up front like you had before (IIRC that looked the best) and take a measurement. I'll have a feeling itll smooth it out quite a bit.

I don't have Audyssey, I use Pioneer Elite receiver. I'm hoping the minidsp will get me where I need to be.
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't understand how this works... I have 3 boxes left to assemble - on Monday night in a little over an hour I put together everything but 1 side and the front baffles on the 3 boxes doing them assembly line style.

Then last night I spent about the same amount of time in the garage and all I got done was 2 front baffles and nothing done on the 3rd box. I felt like the finish line was close after Monday, but after last night it seems so far away.

I did get my driver back from Erich yesterday that I shipped him to make the cutouts for the front baffle so that's huge since I want to get everything fired up this weekend.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:19 AM
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I don't understand how this works... I have 3 boxes left to assemble - on Monday night in a little over an hour I put together everything but 1 side and the front baffles on the 3 boxes doing them assembly line style.

Then last night I spent about the same amount of time in the garage and all I got done was 2 front baffles and nothing done on the 3rd box. I felt like the finish line was close after Monday, but after last night it seems so far away.

I did get my driver back from Erich yesterday that I shipped him to make the cutouts for the front baffle so that's huge since I want to get everything fired up this weekend.

no crap, this waiting shyt sucks... cool.gif
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:34 AM
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Hey Carp, what is the black material you have going from the top of your screen to the ceiling? How far does it extend out?
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Black velvet. The same kind, or close to it, that is around the moulding that makes up my screen frame.

I think it comes out 30 inches, I measured at the time but that could be off. It does a great job with blocking 100 percent of the light when I zoom for 2:35:1 movies.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I sold my 2nd Submersive yesterday, it will be missed I loved those subs.

A nice guy in California is about to be amazed.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:54 PM
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You won't miss it for long biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

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Old 03-15-2013, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

You won't miss it for long biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Ha, yeah I need to get the rest done however....

Sh*t. I was doing some bench press this afternoon and I'm getting back into it but evidently not gradually enough. I was on my last damn rep of the workout and half way up I feel an explosion of pain from my left pec. Well, there goes working on the subs tonight and maybe this weekend.

What made it worse was I had to finish that last rep since I was alone.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:21 PM
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you old fart ^



At the corporate challenge bench press competition I was in one year a guy's pec detached from the center and shot over to the side of his chest when he was trying to lift close to 500lbs. Happened right before I got there - they called an ambulance that was leaving as I pulled up. Shortly after they made an announcement that everyone should not attempt more than they knew they could do in practice. Needless to say that generated some buzz among the competitors.


Hope your alright!

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Old 03-15-2013, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Ha, yeah I need to get the rest done however....

Sh*t. I was doing some bench press this afternoon and I'm getting back into it but evidently not gradually enough. I was on my last damn rep of the workout and half way up I feel an explosion of pain from my left pec. Well, there goes working on the subs tonight and maybe this weekend.

What made it worse was I had to finish that last rep since I was alone.

Tear? You trying to shred up for summer man? Hope it isn't too bad. Might have an adverse effect on your ability to sub crawl for a couple of weeks...

We're not getting any younger my friend.
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Old 03-16-2013, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

you old fart ^



At the corporate challenge bench press competition I was in one year a guy's pec detached from the center and shot over to the side of his chest when he was trying to lift close to 500lbs. Happened right before I got there - they called an ambulance that was leaving as I pulled up. Shortly after they made an announcement that everyone should not attempt more than they knew they could do in practice. Needless to say that generated some buzz among the competitors.


Hope your alright!

Scary stuff. Something that bugs me about what I've seen from those competition. It seems they let the competitors raise their lower back off of the bench, total cheat - and not good for you obviously.

I think I'll be ok. I'm pretty sore today and have some swelling. I can do most movements pain free except for adducting the humerus, which makes sense since that's what the pecs do. So for example driving with the left arm is out, especially right hand turns and I don't want to be moving sub boxes around for at least a few days.
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Old 03-16-2013, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Tear? You trying to shred up for summer man? Hope it isn't too bad. Might have an adverse effect on your ability to sub crawl for a couple of weeks...

We're not getting any younger my friend.

I like to work out year round for the most part, but I'm always pretty lean. However, recently I've gotten even more so since I discovered that my gut doesn't like grain. Basically my only carbs are fruit, vegetables, and of course sugar from junk food - cookies, ice cream whatever. It's amazing how not eating much (I do have a little - has to be the unhealthy enriched grains though) grain leans you up. It sucks though, I could seriously live on cheerios and other cereals.

Yes, I'm getting old fast - 40 this summer and I think it's really going to bother me... that just doesn't seem right like there must be some mistake. smile.gif
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:09 AM
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I turn 43 this year, and I've done everything from bodybuilding competitions, powerlifting competitions, to P90X, you name it. Yes I was strongest when i power lifted, and leanest when I was competing in bodybuilding, but over the years after having four kids I let myself go a little bit ballooning up to 260, Yikes!! Last summer after watching my son who is eight completely follow love with MMA and jiu jitsu, I started doing it myself. It has been by far the best workouts of my life, and helped me lose almost 70 pounds. I've even started competing again in no-gi submission contests and absolutely love them with my 2nd one coming up in 5 weeks.
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I turn 43 this year, and I've done everything from bodybuilding competitions, powerlifting competitions, to P90X, you name it. Yes I was strongest when i power lifted, and leanest when I was competing in bodybuilding, but over the years after having four kids I let myself go a little bit ballooning up to 260, Yikes!! Last summer after watching my son who is eight completely follow love with MMA and jiu jitsu, I started doing it myself. It has been by far the best workouts of my life, and helped me lose almost 70 pounds. I've even started competing again in no-gi submission contests and absolutely love them with my 2nd one coming up in 5 weeks.

A couple of guys I work with do the MMA thing, they are some tough SOB's. Another friend who was a college wrestler (also tough SOB) was talking one of them on in a submission fight (no ref or anything, just doing it for a workout) and the MMA guy choked out the wrestler multiple times. The thing is the wrestler refused to tap out and if the other guy didn't let up would have just gone unconscious multiple times. I was just glad he didn't get put in an arm bar or ankle lock or something like that because I still don't think he would have tapped.

Not a fair fight, the though, the wrestler is much smaller.
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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