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post #181 of 218 Old 08-08-2013, 09:42 AM
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I'm curious if the TD12X crossover suffers from the same thing. What do you think, mtg?

If so, thanks to all for catching it before I got my ported build finished and then cried when they didn't blow me away. wink.gif
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post #182 of 218 Old 08-08-2013, 10:03 AM
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I have a feeling mine may need to be swapped as well.

That is pretty crazy, as I've been loving my TD12X. Trinnov does have the ability to correct reverse polarity issues, so I may not have noticed it as much if it is in fact a reverse polarity in my crossover.

Gotta take a measurement tonight to see. I distinctly remember not being wowed at first by the speakers, and having that same "flat, something is off" feeling.
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post #183 of 218 Old 08-08-2013, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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They still sound pretty good even with the dip, just a little "off" or vague....

Unless the exact failure mode is revealed idk how anyone would know how extensive the swap is.....

Also, IDK how many shipments of the DNA-360 have come in but my CDs were from the first preorder batch, if that matters idk.....

Until then all that can be done is measure and see....

In addition to FR you can take a peak at the unsmoothed group delay plot, the crossover region should clean up a lot compared to a reverse null situation.....
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post #184 of 218 Old 08-08-2013, 10:25 AM
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Brandon's initial measreuemts showed what looked like a dip at the crossover frequency so it could very well be the TD12X needs the same flip on the CD. Actually being that the TD12M and TD12X use roughly the same crossover topology I am pretty sure they both need to be flipped.

Trinnov can't fix this reverse polarity issue, what it can identify and fix is if the entire speaker got wired out of phase with the rest of the system. All it can do here is EQ the dip which does not help when both the woofer and CD are fighting against each other, all it does is throw more power at the issue.
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post #185 of 218 Old 08-08-2013, 10:25 AM
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I have no idea if it was a factory issue or was a fluke in the wiring during the crossover design. All I know is it worked. I am working on getting some one here with some measuring gear so I can try and replicate the measurements others have produced. I can say, after the swap, these speakers came alive.
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post #186 of 218 Old 08-08-2013, 10:41 AM
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Thanks for spotting this. I'm kinda anxious to get home now and see the difference. If I was happy before, I should be thrilled now.
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post #187 of 218 Old 08-08-2013, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Brandon's initial measreuemts showed what looked like a dip at the crossover frequency so it could very well be the TD12X needs the same flip on the CD. Actually being that the TD12M and TD12X use roughly the same crossover topology I am pretty sure they both need to be flipped.


My crossover was a variant of the Karma-12 crossover.... I would consider that one suspect as well.....
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post #188 of 218 Old 08-08-2013, 12:18 PM
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The reason it's difficult to hear is because the theoritical power response is still fairly flat. So you do hear flat sound, but you're mind is tricked because the critical 1500hz region is only power response and the flanking regions are direct sound.

This isn't the first time it's come up. But I think this is the first time it's been confirmed with quality measurements and a direct look at the XO. The other person I helped wasn't sure if they had wired it up wrong to begin with. But they were pretty sure, just didnt want to blow the whistle without proof.
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post #189 of 218 Old 08-08-2013, 05:21 PM
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I just swapped mine, and there was an immediate improvement. TD12X and SEOS really sings now.

I always thought my voices were a little "off" because I was running phantom center. Nope. I would have never known.
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post #190 of 218 Old 08-09-2013, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Brandon's initial measreuemts showed what looked like a dip at the crossover frequency so it could very well be the TD12X needs the same flip on the CD. Actually being that the TD12M and TD12X use roughly the same crossover topology I am pretty sure they both need to be flipped.

Trinnov can't fix this reverse polarity issue, what it can identify and fix is if the entire speaker got wired out of phase with the rest of the system. All it can do here is EQ the dip which does not help when both the woofer and CD are fighting against each other, all it does is throw more power at the issue.

Hey Matt, thanks. Very interesting and very true concerning the topology. So, I'm playing catch up here. I remember the PM's from Mr. Smithers between the three of us and Tux (concerning bwaslo's TD12M design Kevin was building), but I assumed it was an internal wiring error although, he was adamant he wired it correctly. On my measurements at 1m, there is no dip at the xo frequency, yet AV Science sales and filtor1 have noted improvements (AV Science mentioned improvement when going active, I don't recall seeing his system measurements that show this dip and subsequent fix actively). bwaslo's summed response of both M and X designs doesn't show this either, so this is a schematic error on both TD12X and TD12M designs then? If so, my measurements (Omnimic 2) show no polarity issue.

-Nate
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post #191 of 218 Old 08-09-2013, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi RB,

How much smoothing is applied to omnimic graphs? If its 1/3oct or more it might be smoothed out......

I know for sure Bill didn't actually build The Delta 12LFA.... He only measured the drivers separately and simmed the crossover. If you don't know you've swapped the polarity during measurement it wouldn't present itself until someone builds and measures it, Right?

IDK if he built out the AE designs but he told me directly sometime ago he just measured and simulated the response for my crossover.
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post #192 of 218 Old 08-09-2013, 11:12 AM
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Hey Nick,

Thanks. Very good point and it may be smoothed out enough to cover the dip. What I've encountered is the dip in polarity is usually very pronounced. When I first measured system response (right channel only) I had one sub's polarity reversed (huge dip) and with smoothing applied in OM it was still present. Although my response is pretty flat through the xo frequency, I'm still going to try the polarity swap and measure. It would be hilarious if I had mine swapped to begin with!

That's right! Bill only simulated these. We know that 2nd order crossovers do have 180 degree shift, so reversing tweeter only will get the woofer and tweeter cancelation at xo in check.

My system is completely disassembled atm (whole house paint, trim, carpeting project), but once everything is up and running I'm on it.

-Nate
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post #193 of 218 Old 08-10-2013, 10:52 AM
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Perhaps someone ( Erich) should send emails to all of those who purchased the kits that have this reversed polarity issue. Maybe there are some that don't follow this forum on a regular basis who are wondering why their speakers haven't lived up to their expectations.

-Roy
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post #194 of 218 Old 08-10-2013, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I mentioned it in the rallying thread but idk what he plans to do if anything about it....

The first order of business should be to find the exact failure mode to see the scope of problem. Bill never emailed me back so we really dont know how widespread the issue is.....
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post #195 of 218 Old 08-10-2013, 12:33 PM
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It's probably only an issue on the ones he merely simulated, which were this and the AE design afaik. Those aren't kits, so hard to know who has built a pair.
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post #196 of 218 Old 08-10-2013, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajacat View Post

Perhaps someone ( Erich) should send emails to all of those who purchased the kits that have this reversed polarity issue. Maybe there are some that don't follow this forum on a regular basis who are wondering why their speakers haven't lived up to their expectations.

-Roy

I think only 2 of the Karma-12 models have been ordered, most 12" models being used are the Fusion-12. I do plan to contact those 2 that ordered the Karma though.


I have shipped out baffles for A&E woofers, so I'm guessing those might have the polarity issue and I'll look back though my notes and contact them as well.

Is this just for the 12" Delta and A&E design?
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post #197 of 218 Old 08-10-2013, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I think only 2 of the Karma-12 models have been ordered, most 12" models being used are the Fusion-12. I do plan to contact those 2 that ordered the Karma though.


I have shipped out baffles for A&E woofers, so I'm guessing those might have the polarity issue and I'll look back though my notes and contact them as well.

Is this just for the 12" Delta and A&E design?

Greetings Erich,

It's been a while. Sorry I've been silent. Work has been kicking my butt.

I hope all is going well.

Anyway, I was following Nicholas' thread and was wondering if the xover issue is limited to the Karma-12 or could also be in Deltalite-12 kits. I can't find the forum thread anymore on the DIYSG site, but I believe Bill's original design I used was for a variety of Delta's. As you may remember, I used Bill's design before the kits were built. I'm not sure if designs are the same and/or were modified.

Thoughts?

Take care

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post #198 of 218 Old 08-10-2013, 02:07 PM
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I really think any kit/design Bill did where he measured the result will be fine.

This is an important reason to not rely on simulations alone.
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post #199 of 218 Old 08-10-2013, 07:35 PM
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I went back and looked at my measurements. Some are posted in my build thread.http://www.avsforum.com/t/1433151/my-td12m-seos-12-build I do have a dip centered at about 1,800 hz, but my measurements are taken from my main listening position. Also I had a dip at 2,000 hz when I first set up my system active.

Some time I will pull my screen, open my speakers and reverse the tweeter. Then I will measure at 1 meter and see what I get.

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post #200 of 218 Old 08-11-2013, 02:02 PM
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Here's my measuements;
Mains are SEOS12/360s with Delatalight II's in 2 cu' sealed boxes.
The center channel is a Big Mal SEOS12 with NS6s

I built these last winter (and a Big Mal center). I recently upgraded my AVR to a 4311. After running Audessy XT32; I was surprised to see my mains XO being set to 150Hz. My Big Mal center channel was crossed over at 80Hz.
So after getting some experience with REW; I ran some in-room close MIC sweeps of all 3 front SEOS speakers. For the sweeps below; my MIC (a UMIK-1) was positioned 36" directly in front of the baffle centered vertically between the waveguide and the woofer. The following sweeps are troublesome for the mains, but are also consistent with what Audessy applied.

Front Right:


Front Left


Big Mal center:


Any thoughts for the unusually high low-end roll-off for the mains?

(the boxes are lined with a single layer of 3.5" pink fluffy stuff)

How about the dip at the crossover - any concerns or is that fairly normal?

Nick - Sorry about the highjack....

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post #201 of 218 Old 08-11-2013, 02:15 PM
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Cuzed, looks like a polarity issue. I wouldn't worry about the bass, but try flipping the polarity. The bass is to hard to analyze in room. You could take a nearfield, that would be useful.
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post #202 of 218 Old 08-11-2013, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Cuzed, looks like a polarity issue. I wouldn't worry about the bass, but try flipping the polarity. The bass is to hard to analyze in room. You could take a nearfield, that would be useful.


+1 swap, remeasure and see......
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post #203 of 218 Old 08-11-2013, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Cuzed, looks like a polarity issue. I wouldn't worry about the bass, but try flipping the polarity. The bass is to hard to analyze in room. You could take a nearfield, that would be useful.

Thanks Tux!
I will try swapping the tweeter polarity this week and will report back.
As for for near-field measurements; most of today's sweeps were taken in-room with the MIC 36" from the baffle face. Does near-field mean I should move the MIC even closer?

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post #204 of 218 Old 08-11-2013, 06:48 PM
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Yes closer. 1" from the dust cap. Only useful below about 200hz.
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post #205 of 218 Old 08-11-2013, 07:00 PM
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Hey I am thinking of a fusion-12 build for a 14 by 28 living room used for home theater mainly . 90/10 movies to music. I want to be able to listen for movies at 90-100 db with occasionally hitting 105 db peak. I have hsu vtf15 sub and parasound 220 Watt amp. Preamp is emo umc200 . I guess most recent movie that would br example of what I watch is the hobbit . Lots of different voices for speaking and huge score with battle scenes . How would fusion-12 compare to the statement diy. I know fusion-12 is he. Going crazy loud 110 db plus isn't a need. Want great dynamics with clear mids.
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post #206 of 218 Old 08-12-2013, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Bill dropped me a line to say he wasn't sure which driver polarity was switched during his measurements(woofer or tweeter) but did agree it appeared to be a polarity issue.

He was going to look at the data files and see if he could determine what happened.
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post #207 of 218 Old 08-13-2013, 12:32 PM
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I'm stuck in the hospital for at least the next few days with some abdominal issues, so won't have anything till after that when I can get home and dig through some files (and/or remeasure). Sorry about the polarity issues.

As a quick resolution for individual cases, try comparing sound with tweeter inverted and then without. The one that is loudest (around the crossover point) will be the right one.

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post #208 of 218 Old 08-13-2013, 04:06 PM
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Bill,

Hope you get better quickly; and get home for some real rest !!

Take Care!

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post #209 of 218 Old 08-13-2013, 04:48 PM
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I wish you a speedy recovery Bill.
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post #210 of 218 Old 08-13-2013, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Postin from the hospital! What!?

Thanks for dropping by Bill!

BTW after full integration and installation in the baffle wall, really think these need more like 250W instead of the 125W im feeding them....

I am very sensitive to distortion and can get to -3db on my avr without any spl awareness but those last three dbs imcrease the harshness just a touch. Simce the woofer is way below x-max and the CD is capable of waaaay more im thinking my amp is just a little shy......

Loving these guys, they really rock!

Thanks again Bill!
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