Hybird SEOS - Selenium 10PW3 and DNA350/SEOS12 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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DIY Speakers and Subs > Hybird SEOS - Selenium 10PW3 and DNA350/SEOS12
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 06:46 AM 03-21-2013
Back from travel!

Got a chance to do some listening last night. I listened to a few different configurations of my own which was actually alot of fun. I used some "extra" equipment I had laying around and just had the speaker resting on my bar in a makeshift setup. I also went back and forth and did an A/B comparison with the existing configuration and compared to my SHO-10. Some thoughts:

Equipment used:
Spare Harmon Kardon AVR 435, my iphone and some mp3's from spotify. Not the best setup but it allowed for some quick and easy listening. Crossover components were rigged together using some spare MDF and some alligator jumpers. smile.gif

I took both setups up to +5 or so on the receiver at times. Both played loud and cleanly without any distortion at all.

Current configuration:
2nd order on the woof, 3rd order on the tweet with parallel RC contour filter and series RLC. Polarity reversed on the T.

-Overall the clarity is way improved on my hybrid SEOS setup. The sound was a lot more forward/in your face, due to the directivity pattern I suppose. I noticed it was quite a bit more bright, which I'm going to tone back a little bit with some component changes. This became more noticable when I listened to some live performances with alot of crown noise, high pitched guitar solos, etc. The SHO-10 has a bit more laid back sound.
-Midbass is a little bit better with the SEOS box, even with a "lesser" driver likely due to the box tuning.
-Pattern control and off axis response (especially horizontal) is FAR better with the SEOS waveguide.
-The parallel RC contour filter helps clean up the sound a LOT. I experimented by removing/installing and that is definitely staying.
-Played with changing/swapping a few components inside the crossover section itself on the tweeter side (a small margin) and that was not nearly as noticeable to me.
-Removed/reinstalled the series RLC circuit. I honestly couldn't tell the difference with it installed removed.
-Also experimented with changing phase on the woof, tweet, and overall the whole speaker. Surprisingly this was not as noticable as I thought.

I'd imagine some of these things will become more noticeable as time goes on and I can identify what is changing. Overlall, this is a LOT of fun. I'll be experimenting some more with adding some series resistors on the T side tonight. I may try to grab some quick/dirty inside measurements if time allows too.

Next I'm going to build out an iteration that Ryan sent me to compare. It will be interesting to see how poorly mine performs in comparison. smile.gif




autox320's Avatar autox320 07:29 AM 03-21-2013
I've seen the inverted polarity of the tweet on the SHO10 flattens response at the crossover point. Other than that why not just copy the SHO crossover since you have one. You'll notice how much the tweet is padded and how the woofer compensation values are. ie 2 outter most resistors are the tweeter net Lpad and the 2 inner resistors are the woofer compensation. That's why it's "laid" back IMO. Still no time at home but I have all the delta drivers in a stack waiting to make towers. After your previous tests and some of our own, bought a stack of epx4000 amps for the mains wink.gif

Keep it up man
tuxedocivic's Avatar tuxedocivic 07:34 AM 03-21-2013
His speaker uses all different drivers than the sho10, so the sho's cross over would not work.
autox320's Avatar autox320 07:42 AM 03-21-2013
The selenium driver is the same in the pro(shares same xover), but the different tweet(350) I could see a different Lpad figure. Other than choosing a crossover point why not just copy what's already done. The SHO tweet is padded quite a bit btw and I'm not sure what the 350 output is dB wise to get it down to match the woof.
tuxedocivic's Avatar tuxedocivic 08:13 AM 03-21-2013
I thought it was a different woofer. Either way, different CD and waveguide so the whole thing changes. Even the woofer side of things.
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 08:15 AM 03-21-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

The selenium driver is the same in the pro(shares same xover), but the different tweet(350) I could see a different Lpad figure. Other than choosing a crossover point why not just copy what's already done. The SHO tweet is padded quite a bit btw and I'm not sure what the 350 output is dB wise to get it down to match the woof.

I can say for sure that the Selenium and Delta 10A drivers have very different impedance curves and will require different levels of compensation to properly work each driver into the design. In addition, there are some small sensitivity differences (about 2db on paper) as well. I've measured both with DATS and the Selenium is actually quite a bit easier to work with in terms of woofer comp.

With that said, as a commercial model (the PRO/SHO), I doubt most manufacturers would go through the trouble to build a separate crossover design for each considering the R&D and material costs involved. One of the many benefits of building your own I guess. biggrin.gif
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 05:37 AM 03-22-2013
Played around with different combinations of series resistors added in to pad down the tweet last night ranging from 2 to 15 ohms. As of now I'm thinking 6-8 ohms sounds best to my ears, but I will have to do some measurements to confirm. cool.gif
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 06:14 AM 03-22-2013
Some quick/dirty measurements early this morning, indoors of course. Got some reflections creeping in below ~300hz or so, but still a very usable reading. Amazing how closely this follows the model in PCD! Not too terrible for a first attempt, will work on cleaning up the 1000-3000hz region next. smile.gif



Took a quick peek at the SHO-10 in comparison:


autox320's Avatar autox320 07:19 AM 03-22-2013
flip polarity on the SHO tweeter smile.gif
autox320's Avatar autox320 07:23 AM 03-22-2013

tuxedocivic's Avatar tuxedocivic 07:31 AM 03-22-2013
The sho comes with the wrong tweeter polarity? I wonder if othe sho owners know this auto. I take it you have a pair.
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 08:28 AM 03-22-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

flip polarity on the SHO tweeter smile.gif

I was thinking of trying that as well. I've got 4 of them. I'm going to measure a few of them to see if they all look the same? Crazy how much the tweeter is padded in this design. Response falls off pretty hard >10k too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The sho comes with the wrong tweeter polarity? I wonder if othe sho owners know this auto. I take it you have a pair.

Kind of odd, right? What do you think of the first attempt on the SEOS?
autox320's Avatar autox320 11:11 AM 03-22-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I was thinking of trying that as well. I've got 4 of them. I'm going to measure a few of them to see if they all look the same? Crazy how much the tweeter is padded in this design. Response falls off pretty hard >10k too.
Kind of odd, right? What do you think of the first attempt on the SEOS?

Yeah approx 12dB pad to bring the selenium 220ti from 109ish dB down to approx 98dB of the delta10a. And we all know the eminence xover is 1.6k with 18dB slope on tweet and 12dB slope on the woof. Woof compensation you can measure the two resistors across the woof tracks taking note they are parallel.

Yes I have SHOs for my front stage but making towers x5 using dual delta10a's with similar design sticking with 2way. Have all the parts, just too busy working to start the project though.
tuxedocivic's Avatar tuxedocivic 11:28 AM 03-22-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Kind of odd, right? What do you think of the first attempt on the SEOS?

It's pretty good. I wonder about the dip at 3khz. Is it a measurement error or real? If it's real you should work on getting that out. I'm not sure what in your cross over would cause that without looking at it closer.
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 07:17 AM 03-25-2013
Ryan - Sent you a few other PCD files to look at. Your input is highly valued and appreciated as usual. tongue.gif I'd like to try a few other designs before ordering some more parts from PE.

Broke the cabinets down last night for finishing. Initial sanding and round overs completed. Hoping to do the final sanding and maybe hit it with some primer this evening. I will have the boxes back up and ready for more testing/listening later this week for sure.

Man, this is fun but like everything else very addicting! At this point I'm becoming a bit more comfortable with PCD and alot of the frustration is taken out. I've got most of the components to build 2 more of these. Next up maybe a MTM build or something?

Oh - And BTW I measured a few of the SHO-10s and they looked the same. I guess they come with the wrong polarity on the tweet? FAIL.
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 07:18 PM 03-25-2013
Slight update - working on the grill frames tonight and they are ready for assembly. Tomorrow night will drill for magnets and possibly get them primered. biggrin.gif
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 01:13 PM 03-29-2013
Cabinets just about finished. Been playing with a few different crossovers and finally think I nailed down a design I like. Going to order a few more components from PE today also. smile.gif Man, this is addicting!! Grills are framed out and painted, but need to be wrapped. Inside of the cabinet I'll line with some type of batting when I install the crossovers. cool.gif

Pictures:


Close range measurement, indoors, no smoothing!

mtg90's Avatar mtg90 02:17 PM 03-29-2013
Nice!
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 05:45 AM 03-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Nice!

Thanks Matt!

Ordered some parts from PE to assemble the final crossovers. Using air core 18 gauge inductors on the woof, and 20 on the tweet. Poly caps throughout. It's too easy to spend in excess on nice components. These woofs are limited to 200-300watts so I didn't see a real need to go with the huge inductors.

Originally I was building these just for surround use but they sound so damn good that I may build another pair to use in the gym area. biggrin.gif Extension is down to 75hz so they must be used with a sub.

Now that I've got my feet wet, I'll have a good understanding/foundation for my mega-mains build. biggrin.gif
autox320's Avatar autox320 11:27 AM 03-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Now that I've got my feet wet, I'll have a good understanding/foundation for my mega-mains build. biggrin.gif

Tower 15s and AT 235:1 screen? biggrin.gif
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 11:35 AM 03-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

Tower 15s and AT 235:1 screen? biggrin.gif

Tower 15s (twins in each) and 130" AT 16:9 screen. We watch alot of HDTV content. biggrin.gif
Sibuna's Avatar Sibuna 03:53 PM 03-30-2013
so a 12 in SEOS above 2 15s? dear god man
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 03:56 PM 03-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

so a 12 in SEOS above 2 15s? dear god man

I'm thinking a large SEOS - maybe 18-24? I suppose this will depend on availability too. This is a ways off though, this little screen project as well as finishing 4 of these speakers will keep me occupied for a while. biggrin.gif
autox320's Avatar autox320 01:13 AM 03-31-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Tower 15s (twins in each) and 130" AT 16:9 screen. We watch alot of HDTV content. biggrin.gif

That's what I've been trying to tell ya biggrin.gif . I'm sticking with dual 10 towers for smallest footprint inside our living room. Should be shhweeeeeeet.


Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 05:46 AM 04-01-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

That's what I've been trying to tell ya biggrin.gif . I'm sticking with dual 10 towers for smallest footprint inside our living room. Should be shhweeeeeeet.


No doubt about that. Based on your amp stack shown, I assume you're going active?
autox320's Avatar autox320 06:41 AM 04-01-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

No doubt about that. Based on your amp stack shown, I assume you're going active?

I've been running epq1200s for the mains, but replacing with epx4000s.
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83 06:46 AM 05-03-2013
Hit a slight delay in finishing these up due to the April GTG and my AT screen build, but these are finally done! I need to order a couple more speakon connectors so I can run them full time as surrounds now, but I did some testing one at a time last night and they sound awesome!

More pictures and measurements coming at some point, heh.


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