Pair of Sealed Dayton 18" Flat-Pack Subs Build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 71 Old 03-04-2013, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I was encouraged by a few kind folks to put the build thread up even though it seems as if several others have already chronicled this path very well.

(UPDATE 3/12/13 Pictures of build start start with Post #29!)biggrin.gif

Before getting started, I would like to give a shout-out to Archaea, Gorilla83, LTD02, and Erich at DIYSG for already answering some of my questions, and helping me arrive at even more! If I missed anyone that has shared some advice with me, I apologize in advance.wink.gif

PLEASE WEIGH IN IF I SEEM TO BE GOING ASTRAY SOMEWHERE...
I AM NEEDING GUIDANCE WITH THE AMPLIFIER/DSP TO BE PAIRED WITH THIS BUILD, BIG TIME!!rolleyes.gif

My build will not be breaking new ground.
I will post pics once I have started the assembly.

It will consist of:

Two 4 cubic foot, SINGLE-DRIVER flat packs from Erich. I plan on assembling these AS SEALED ENCLOSURES with some clamps, Titebond 3 (extended work time), and shooting the joints with some pins to help hold until cured.

DuraTex for the finish (what can I say...home theater setting...it works!)

Two Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" Reference HO 4 ohm subwoofers (one per enclosure)

Spikes (rounded or pointed) or rubber feet under each cabinet. I have a concrete floor with carpet and pad...what might be best?

Not sure about binding posts....two pairs of what Erich has pictured at the bottom of the flat-packs page?

I have a calibrated Dayton UMM-6 mic coming to me from Cross-Spectrum.

Amplifier and DSP...eek.gif

I was initially bouncing around either an EP4000 or CV5000 with external DSP (what?) run off a trigger from my receiver so that I can keep the amp in a separate location further away from my listening area?????

What will I need to connect these components? XLR cables? Clean Box? 12V trigger stuff (MrSmithers?)?

I have a Denon 2310CI receiver (one sub out...Audyssey, but not XT). Do I benefit big time from having 2 sub-outs from the receiver? Will be TRYING to keep this to just the two subs...cool.gif

Room is an L-shaped finished basement of just under 4000 cubic feet, combination of 7-8 foot ceilings, no bass treatments, concrete slab floor with carpet.
I use the room almost 100% for home theater/movies with my projector. The music I do listen to ends up being concert DVDs.

Thanks for being postive y'all...what a great forum!!


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post #2 of 71 Old 03-04-2013, 05:28 AM
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sounds very similar to what i just built. Same boxes, same drivers

I did not do anything for feet but ordered some cork & rubber anti vibration pads, they come as 4x4 in squares that i plan on putting under the subs and between the subs and speakers i have sitting on top of them. YOu can go with whatever you want/like. Perconally i just didnt want to perm attach anything to them. these also work well http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003IMODW8/ref=s9_simh_gw_p60_d2_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0TSEPNQA0BMYCDAERRG3&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1389517282&pf_rd_i=507846

For terminals i used these http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-311 but you can use raw posts or speakons. pretty much anything works, just go with what is easiest for you to install/hook to your equipment

im running mine from a EP4000 and with the lmited time ive spent with it since finishing everything its fine for my space, Good thing about them is they are cheap and i feel i need more power i can just get a 2nd one. Running RCA-XLR (adapters from PE) from the AVR to the Amp, speaker wire out of it to subs.

if you dont have 2 sub outs just get a Y cable. as its likely thats all that the 2 sub outs are anyway


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post #3 of 71 Old 03-04-2013, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Sibuna. I was putting this together in my head when I saw your build thread go up...and I said, "Right on!"
You were already two steps ahead of me.biggrin.gif


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post #4 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 03:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay.
Dayton's have been shipped.
Flat packs and binding posts have been shipped.
Funny...Cross-Spectrum has not responded to my email for an update??? If there is a rep on here, please PM me.
March 5, 2013 UPDATE: Cross Spectrum returned my call. Order has been processed and shipped.
One calibrated Dayton UMM-6 with USB file for that mic, as well as that mic's individual report is now on it's way
.biggrin.gif

On to amps!!!!!.........help?

Going with EP4000 for now...and will attempt fan mod?
I had kicked around the CV5000 and the XLS2500.
Outside of driving to higher SPLs, is there going to be a noteworthy SQ difference with the subwoofers between the CV5000 and EP4000?

Current price on CV5000 is about 700, XLS2500 about 530, and the EP4000 is about 300.


On to DSP!!!!.....help?

minidsp?
DCX2496?
others?


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post #5 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 04:44 AM
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I personally own the EP-4000 and love it. For the money, I don't think it can be beat!
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post #6 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 05:10 AM
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The EP-4000 are certainly a good deal for the money, no doubt. I own a couple.

I'm not sure how everyone is powering their Daytons, but you could try one EP-4000, stereo 4ohms ... and if that wasn't enough get another, and run two of them bridged mono into 4ohms.

If the general consensus is they need more power, get the CV. Myself, I'd shy away from the I-Nukes, or the Crowns, that's me.

Good luck


btw, if you can get away without fan modding them, all the better

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------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
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post #7 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I'd shy away from the I-Nukes, or the Crowns, that's me.

btw, if you can get away without fan modding them, all the better

Why shy away from the I- nukes?
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post #8 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozziedog View Post

Why shy away from the I- nukes?

Myself, I'm not sold on their robustness. Josh Ricci recently experienced an amp failure with an I-Nuke.

Relative to the EP series, I think their extension is comprimised, by design they're more reliant on the power line, and I'm skeptical. I know the EP series is well vetted, and operating within their limits are quite stout and reliable. Their extension is solid way down below 10hz.

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
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(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Myself, I'm not sold on their robustness. Josh Ricci recently experienced an amp failure with an I-Nuke.

Relative to the EP series, I think their extension is comprimised, by design they're more reliant on the power line, and I'm skeptical. I know the EP series is well vetted, and operating within their limits are quite stout and reliable. Their extension is solid way down below 10hz.
Ok, thanks
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post #10 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

The EP-4000 are certainly a good deal for the money, no doubt. I own a couple.

I'm not sure how everyone is powering their Daytons, but you could try one EP-4000, stereo 4ohms ... and if that wasn't enough get another, and run two of them bridged mono into 4ohms.


btw, if you can get away without fan modding them, all the better

this is my plan, even running 4 ohm stereo they get a decent amount of power, and depending on the space may be enough. more power is always better but at 300$ for the EP4k its one heck of a deal for anyone on a budget


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post #11 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

this is my plan, even running 4 ohm stereo they get a decent amount of power, and depending on the space may be enough. more power is always better but at 300$ for the EP4k its one heck of a deal for anyone on a budget

I believe they're about 650 a side into 4, measured

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------------------------------------
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(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
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post #12 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay fellas.
I ruled out iNuke because of on-board DSP not getting down below 20.

So EP4000 or just make things future-happy and go with the CV5000...will make this decision by tomorrow.
Is there a SQ diff between the two in my planned set-up? Or just SPL?

How about recommended DSP to mate up with either the EP4K or CV5K?


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post #13 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 09:02 AM
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A few things;
How are the other builds utilizing this driver powered?
What's the general consensus on how much they need in the cab size you're using?

What are you wanting to achieve with the DSP?
How much do you want to spend?


There's so much enthusiasm toward minDSP's offerings, but there's other options like Behringer's DCX2496, on up in price.

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------------------------------------
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(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #14 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, FOH.

From the recent SW builds I have seen, it seems that a good number of people have lighted on 4 cubic feet in a sealed enclosure being close to ideal for the Dayton 18" drivers.
Also, it seems as if a number agree that the EP4000 gives enough power for two of these at a reasonable SPL...I don't wear earplugs when listening...wink.gif...and the EP won't overpower the drivers.

I have also gleaned that the CV would give the additional headroom for later subs, if chosen, and at the least, would not work hard with two...thusly improving the chances of long-term reliability?

My budget would allow for the CV5000, but I am beginning to think I just don't need it. As has been stated, I could always get another EP if needed and bridge the two (is two amps a superior solution to one?...seems like it would be for a couple of reasons OUTSIDE OF NOISE).

I was hoping the DSP would allow for me to manipulate the FR from 5-10 and on up and allow for any basic filters. I do not need to manipulate all facets, just have a fairly simple UI that allows me to smooth out most of the bumps and dips and integrate the subs with each other, the other speakers, and the room.

Budget for DSP? Hmmm...$300 max unless there is some easily identifiable and effective difference with some higher priced offering.


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post #15 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blah450 View Post

...Room is an L-shaped finished basement of just under 4000 cubic feet, combination of 7-8 foot ceilings, no bass treatments, concrete slab floor with carpet.
I use the room almost 100% for home theater/movies with my projector. The music I do listen to ends up being concert DVDs.... (emphasis added ed.)
In a finshed basement, the walls reflect most of the bass, leading to extreme variations in bass SPL with position and frequency - room modes. You can fix 1 seat with EQ. I strongly suggest considering some degree of room acoustic treatment, with an emphasis on bass absorption, based on measurements of your room. Room modes are easy to see on a waterfall plot (SPL vs Frequency vs. Time) as long SPL decay times at a given frequency, frequently corresponding to a peak in the T=0 curve.

Sadly, beyond suggesting basic broad-band absorbers for frequencies above 100-200Hz, there's little to be suggested for bass frequencies without data on room performance. Room modes will yield a little to multiple subs and sub placement variation, but room treatment fixes the whole space.

Most suggestions I see posted are for extending low frequency absorption of an existing broad-band absorber design (eg. super chunk "traps"). The result is a too-quiet room that still booms (we humans don't notice an absence as easily easily as an excess).

I also can't tell you want I had to do as my room's above grade with basement and attic above and below, and only one wall common to the rest of the house. Lots of leakage, so very weak room modes... but I can hear car doors close in the driveway, so I bet the neighbors can hear canon fire if they listen.

Have fun,
Frank
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post #16 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 04:31 PM
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congrats on getting your build underway blah.

i haven't seen any bench test of the cv5000. has anybody?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #17 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blah450 View Post

Thanks, FOH.

From the recent SW builds I have seen, it seems that a good number of people have lighted on 4 cubic feet in a sealed enclosure being close to ideal for the Dayton 18" drivers.
Also, it seems as if a number agree that the EP4000 gives enough power for two of these at a reasonable SPL...I don't wear earplugs when listening...wink.gif...and the EP won't overpower the drivers.

I have also gleaned that the CV would give the additional headroom for later subs, if chosen, and at the least, would not work hard with two...thusly improving the chances of long-term reliability?

My budget would allow for the CV5000, but I am beginning to think I just don't need it. As has been stated, I could always get another EP if needed and bridge the two (is two amps a superior solution to one?...seems like it would be for a couple of reasons OUTSIDE OF NOISE).

I was hoping the DSP would allow for me to manipulate the FR from 5-10 and on up and allow for any basic filters. I do not need to manipulate all facets, just have a fairly simple UI that allows me to smooth out most of the bumps and dips and integrate the subs with each other, the other speakers, and the room.

Budget for DSP? Hmmm...$300 max unless there is some easily identifiable and effective difference with some higher priced offering.

I had a CV-5000 on my dual opposed for awhile and when we demo'd them at carp's. My box is a touch smaller, comes in around 3.2 net cubes per driver. I then sold the CV to carp because it was way more than I needed (I'm not gonna build a second box for a couple months) so I bought an EP4K in the meantime. Even at ~650 a driver it beats them up pretty good, there's no way I could get it to clip before my apartment fell apart. Between ~650 and ~1250 watts you're only gaining around 3dB in that scenario. If you're sure you're building 2 more boxes and want absolute max power then the CV seems to be a really great amplifier, especially if rack space will be at a premium. If you're unsure than an EP is a great way to start, and you could always have it for a spare, resell it, use it for mains, whatever. I personally feel more comfortable being aggressive fan-modding the EP since it's less than half the price which is a big deal to me due to the small distance between my ears and the fans. I ended up wiring the CV is 2 ohms and just using one channel because I was too much of a noob to feel comfortable doing 4 ohm stereo (listed 1800W per driver) and restraining myself/carp/Archaea in regards to volume. The CV is very loud stock for sure but after several hours of pounding it at carp's it was barely warmer to the touch than room temp. In my limited experience they are both excellent at receiving an input signal and amplifying it biggrin.gif

I use a miniDSP and love it, it makes storing and swapping to different LT's and such about as easy as it could be without a Bassis or something (but obviously more flexibile). The only problem with the 2x4 miniDSP is it's definitely not catered to people who just want to get something and plug it in. I wasn't at all interested in dealing with a bunch of the Phoenix XLR connectors (especially given the "in-a-box" costs more) so I bought the regular 2x4 balanced kit and mounted it up nicelike in a 1U rack mount case. That approach would be a PITA if you wanted it to look good and didn't have access to the right tools though. It looks like some of the larger varieties are more ready to go, but obviously quite a bit more expensive.
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post #18 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Cross Spectrum returned my call. Order has been processed and shipped.
One calibrated Dayton UMM-6 with USB file for that mic, as well as that mic's individual report is now on it's way! biggrin.gif


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post #19 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, MrSmithers!

I take it that the miniDSP path for those that can hide everything away with regard to this aspect, and mySW set-up is the miniDSP 2x4 with 2-way advanced plug-in?


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post #20 of 71 Old 03-05-2013, 06:45 PM
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I just finished the same build (2 of Erich's 4cf flat packs, 2 Dayton HOs,1 ep4000, duratex finish) and have a similar sized room (>3600cf). I don't listen at crazy levels but based on my limited testing/listening last weekend can't imagine wanting more power than I have with the ep4000. I'd only consider another amp if there are quieter options and the amp will have to be located near the LP (I moved my AV components to a closet). I'm currently using a bfd for eq. My subs measured decent without eq so there's a chance you get lucky and can get by with just audyssey; but if you have the budget, I'd go ahead and grab a minidsp based on what I've read about it.

Good luck with the build. BTW, I started a thread too that I'll be updating with pics and graphs later this week... currently out of town.
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post #21 of 71 Old 03-06-2013, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, benunc. Will check it out!
Wonder what amp would have that kind of power, but be significantly quieter?


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post #22 of 71 Old 03-06-2013, 04:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Flat packs and Daytons should arrive tomorrow! Psyched!biggrin.gif


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post #23 of 71 Old 03-12-2013, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Trying to get this Photobucket thing running.rolleyes.gif
I will soon have pics posted of the flat packs arriving and assembling them.

Daytons have also arrived. Pics of those will be up as well.

I use PL all of the time with my masonry work...great stuff, but everyone is right...MESSY!

I opted to use the Titebond 3 glue for all joints and pinned (with my nailer) the pieces while clamped. Water clean-up and plenty of working time!
It seemed as if a 30 minute clamp time per set-up worked well with the Titebond 3 and this MDF.

By the way, Erich at DIY has provided a truly IKEA-like AIY experience with the flat packs.
The pieces fit together as well as they could. Rabbeting was done perfectly.
Thanks, Erich!...will leave feedback at your site asap.

Once assembled and cured, I ran a bead of white silicone caulk around all of the interior seams that could allow air to escape to the exterior.
Silicone rather than PL, because it is easy to form a secure bead, and stays flexible for years.

I will be sanding a few spackle spots here and there in the next few days and then dark-tint priming the MDF enclosures prior to appplying the DuraTex.
The priming will help the DuraTex create a very strong bond to the MDF, and additionally help seal the routered and cut edges of the MDF which are more prone to absorbing moisture from the finish and atmospere during application.


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post #24 of 71 Old 03-12-2013, 10:13 AM
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you can attach pictures directly in the editor. no need for photobucket. avs is likely just going to store the photos locally on the first load anyway.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #25 of 71 Old 03-12-2013, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Roger that, LTD. Thanks.

Was hoping someone could weigh in a little more on exactly how to wire the EP4000 to the subs....as it relates to wiring set-up for the right loads on the Daytons.
I assure you...I am quite the rookie...so simple is best for me.


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post #26 of 71 Old 03-12-2013, 12:57 PM
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if you are still planning on running 2 subs in stereo just run channel 1 to sub 1 and channel 2 to sub 2, its that simple

dip switches as such (if using 2 inputsfrom the AVR)

1) on
2) doesnt matter
3) off
4) stereo
5) stereo
6) Off
7) Off
8) off
9) doesnt matter
10) on

if you are only running 1 input from the AVR set switches 4 and 5 to Parallel and run the input into channel 1

mine is setup with 2 inputs from the AVR because i can if i want set the sub levels independently while EQing

the user manual does a pretty good job explaining it all, you can download it from behringers website
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post #27 of 71 Old 03-12-2013, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Sibuna.
My AVR has only one subwoofer pre-out.
Does this mean I am stuck with one input from the AVR...or do I put in a Y?


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post #28 of 71 Old 03-12-2013, 04:30 PM
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you can do either and it shouldn't change anything, running the Y just lets you set the gain for each channel independently on the ep4k. chances are you will never run them at anything besides max


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post #29 of 71 Old 03-12-2013, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Photos...finally!

The two 4 cu ft flat packs for the Dayton 18"HO arrive...and packed well.





The pieces laid out and partially dry-assembled for your viewing pleasure!
The first photo shows the back panel of the enclosure.
I essentially viewed it as the bottom piece during assembly.
It does have a lightly scroed/etched groove for where a plate amplifier (Dayton?) could go.











The next two photos clearly show the two halves of the double-thick baffle (1.5" total thickness).
Only the outside half has the round-over edges and material removed for the driver to seat into.





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post #30 of 71 Old 03-12-2013, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Other gear arriving...

The two Dayton 18"HO drivers:D





The Dayton pre-calibrated UMM-6 mic and calibration file on thumb drive from Spectrum Labs.
I would like to make a note that these folks, once they got in touch with me, indicated there had been some changes to their website, and I had been caught in the middle of that with my order. After that conversation, I had the mic in no time. Their measurement and calibration sheet is in the last pic.







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