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post #271 of 401 Old 06-27-2013, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Monoprice 12 gauge 50tf spool. 14.68 + shipping.
Clicky.

I got distracted when I was comparing and didn't realize how long I was taking. smile.gif I am going to do the 100ft spool. I can always use it on other projects. smile.gif
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post #272 of 401 Old 06-27-2013, 03:01 PM
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All my wires needs came from Monoprice (HDMI, speaker, RCA, etc.).

I never had success trying to find a coupon code for Monoprice, so don't look to hard tongue.gif
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post #273 of 401 Old 06-27-2013, 03:03 PM
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monoprice is so low you don't need a coupon code.

Eqpmt: Denon AVR-4520CI, EP 4000's, Sony BDP-S5100, Old Rear Projection DLP. 

Builds: Maelstrom 21 Ottoman Build, Dual Opposed MFW's x 2, Statements, SEOS-12/TD12M x 5. 

On Deck: TD6M's/SEOS Surrounds x 6, Finalists (maybe)

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post #274 of 401 Old 06-27-2013, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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10-4 I will grab the rest as soon as the $ rolls in.

I updated the first post a little today too. smile.gif
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post #275 of 401 Old 06-28-2013, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

I am still reading that. I appreciate the link.

So I gather from the information I really need to know what the impedance profile is of these exact speakers to make the best choice. Is that a safe conclusion?

I guess it's safe, but I don't see how you reached it.

The wire inside a speaker is too short for it to have a significant effect.
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

For the limited runs one would be using when wiring speakers; I couldn't help but think you'd be better served spending a nominal amount more and go with a larger gauge.

Better served how?

Just take a look at the gauge of the tinsel leads on the drivers, or contemplate the thickness of the VC wire.

Noah
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post #276 of 401 Old 06-28-2013, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I guess it's safe, but I don't see how you reached it.

In the Nominal Speaker Impedance section of this link, http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm, it described the natural variance of impedance relative to a given frequency.

"When the impedance rises higher than the nominal value, this is not a problem for a power amplifier. However, some systems may deviate significantly below the rated impedance and this could be a problem for a power amplifier, particularly where matching output transformers are concerned."

and just above that in the Wire Table section, there is a chart that gives a wire size relative to the impedance of a given speaker.

"For example: you can use#18 wire for a 25 foot run to a nominal 8 ohm speaker, but if the run is increased to 35 feet, #16 wire must be used. (**) 50 feet is the maximum recommended length for normal line cord or Romex solid copper wire. This length is more than adequate for most installations. An explanation is further down on this page titled "What about Wires Longer Than 50 Feet?".

A wire resistance of less than 5% of the nominal speaker impedance is chosen to work well with almost all speaker systems and can be considered conservative. Even a resistance of less than 10% of the nominal value could be used with some speakers and would not be audible. A further explanation can be found in a later section."

For my room, I have exceeded the ratio for my surrounds. I am using 16ga wire and the runs from the receiver are ~60ft. The speakers on my deck out back are even further away and only use 18ga. According to this chart, I am using undersized wire for the distance and impedance. I could get away with 20ga for my mains in their current location, but the receiver may have to move to a distance requiring ~25ft or longer requiring 18ga wire.

I kept reading, actually read it twice, and there was input from Ian Masters in the An Honest Answer from Sound & Vision (2001) section further toward the bottom of the link.

"Cheap Wire
Q. Would it be okay for me to use single conductor wire as speaker cables running through the attic or under the house? Does stranded wire provide some sonic benefit? It would be far cheaper and easier for me to run 12-gauge wire to a plate with banana receptacles and then use specialty cable at each end to patch to the amplifier and speakers. Jon Schwendig, Santa Clara, CA

A. There are a lot of myths about speaker wires, but in the end it's thickness that counts, and 12 gauge should be heavy enough for any reasonable domestic application. I've taken several comparative listening sessions over the years, and the sort of wire you want to use involves no sonic degradation that I (or anybody else in the tests) could hear. You could even wire the whole distance from amp to speakers using 12-gauge, but it would probably be more convenient to use something more flexible for the actual connection to components. Specialty audiophile cables would serve that purpose nicely, although more modest cables would work just as well."


The reason behind my conclusion is that in the event my lengths change and/or I move to a speaker with a lower impedance profile I will be covered. I will be stepping up and replacing the wire that goes to my rears and the deck speakers as I can.

Is my logic here not sound? I am all for alternate points of view here. I am not bothered by being corrected either. smile.gif
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post #277 of 401 Old 06-28-2013, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

The wire inside a speaker is too short for it to have a significant effect.

I should have been more specific. This is not only for the internal wire, I am in need of lengths between the Receiver and the center speaker.
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post #278 of 401 Old 06-28-2013, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I guess it's safe, but I don't see how you reached it.

The wire inside a speaker is too short for it to have a significant effect.
Better served how?

Just take a look at the gauge of the tinsel leads on the drivers, or contemplate the thickness of the VC wire.

If that's true, why does AE offer the Apollo upgrade? While I'm not completely disagreeing, why would you cheap out when we're talking a couple bucks difference? If it were hundreds maybe, but singles?

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post #279 of 401 Old 06-28-2013, 05:18 PM
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"If that's true, why does AE offer the Apollo upgrade?"

that is mostly for heat sinking and secondarily for the last bit of inductance linearization/reduction.

a voice coil might be 50 feet long of extremely thin wire, such as 22 gauge, so whether you add
another foot or two of 22 gauge or add a foot or two of 12 gauge, it really isn't going to matter much.
to the extent that the wire going to the driver is insulated and not cooled, you wouldn't actually
want to do that, but that's probably the general logic behind the comment.

generally, you are right though. over do the wire and go fry bigger fish.
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post #280 of 401 Old 06-29-2013, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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So I just ordered the Duratex with rollers and the speaker wire. I am happy I have kept this build to $1500, which was my over all budget. The only cost I have left is the Dacron. I have never even touched 1/3 of this for a 5 speaker system before and am nervous.
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post #281 of 401 Old 06-29-2013, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

So I just ordered the Duratex with rollers and the speaker wire. I am happy I have kept this build to $1500, which was my over all budget. The only cost I have left is the Dacron. I have never even touched 1/3 of this for a 5 speaker system before and am nervous.


You'll love it. You'll feel like like you have a $5k system in your home. biggrin.gif

I can't wait to get my build going. Soon, I hope.
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post #282 of 401 Old 06-30-2013, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

You'll love it. You'll feel like like you have a $5k system in your home. biggrin.gif

I can't wait to get my build going. Soon, I hope.

Man I hope that is true. smile.gif I am sure it will be.

I look forward to the next round for you as well. biggrin.gif
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post #283 of 401 Old 07-01-2013, 04:33 AM
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How much do you like having it all finished? I bet you are excited!
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post #284 of 401 Old 07-01-2013, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Although I am doing a ton of listening, I am reserving any detailed opinion until I and able to line the inside of the cabs.

I can say these things have amazing output potential. I can make it uncomfortable in my room even off my AVR's power. I can easily overwhelm my subwoofer's output less that one corner in the room where it has always seemed to be overpowering.

As an aside, I will be pushing back the 18"s build one more time. It seems it is time to put down a proper floor in the living room. :/ Roll with the punches, right. smile.gif At least I have one I can use until then.
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post #285 of 401 Old 07-01-2013, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

I should have been more specific. This is not only for the internal wire, I am in need of lengths between the Receiver and the center speaker.

Ah, that's different.

Noah
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post #286 of 401 Old 07-02-2013, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Ah, that's different.

Devil is in the details. smile.gif

The Duratex got here in record time. I was shocked how fast. Going to tear them back down and get them coated. Wire and lining won't be here till the 8th.
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post #287 of 401 Old 07-07-2013, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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While I am waiting for the parts to get here. I painted the living room and am working on the build ins and wire management. I anchored the right side tops to the studs and cut all the trim pieces for the inside of the top shelf of the lowers.



Made my own cable tract for the wires coming out of the right cabinet and terminated it at the center under the tv. This will house everything but the one speaker wire that goes to the right channel. I will finish it when the subs are built. I will make the vertical portion that goes to the tv when my son wakes up.



Made the top piece removable. The channel will be the wall color and the cabinets and foot boards will be white.



I made two pieces that are hidden under the front lip of the bottom of the right cabinets and will keep my wires tucked away nicely.



What you can see if you looked from the floor up into the cabinets.



I still have a ton to do on these but the details are getting worked out. We are going to try and get these painted tonight so I can have the week to work on finishing the speakers.
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post #288 of 401 Old 07-08-2013, 11:21 AM
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Nice cabinet/shelves.


Did you build that? It looks quality.
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post #289 of 401 Old 07-08-2013, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the compliment. smile.gif I did build them. The offerings at the furniture stores didn't inspire confidence with regard to being solid. The pieces that were well made were between $600-$700, and that was only for one side. I spent under $400 for the materials for both and I can hang off these. I had to design them to handle a 2yr old. They were supposed to be completed by the end of Nov of 2012. This week and next will be the final push. Although I enjoy building, I am going to order doors. That is enough over my head that I am not even going to attempt them.
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post #290 of 401 Old 07-08-2013, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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So I want to give some customer service feedback.

1) Not that Monoprice needs my endorsement but they were awesome to deal with as usual.
2) Acry-tech, where I ordered my Duratex from, were awesome. Tons of communication and very fast delivery.
3) Meniscus Audio Group, where I ordered the Bonded Dacron have treated me very well. Responded quickly to my emails. Although the product is not due here till tomorrow, I have enjoyed dealing with them.

The level of CS I have had throughout this build has been amazing. We are lucky to have these businesses that are dedicated to delivering products and attention to detail in a relatively obscure hobby.

I made some more progress on the room. Channel is painted although the lids are still in the garage, they are also painted. No reason to install them just yet.



The Duratex, textured rollers, and wire are all here. The Dacron is scheduled to be here tomorrow. smile.gif

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post #291 of 401 Old 07-09-2013, 05:16 AM
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Are these going to be inside of the cabinet 100% out of view? If so that is fine, but, if not, then I would look into a nice stain or paint color. If it were me, and the speakers were going to be exposed, then Duratex would not be an option, but, I realize that not everyone feels that way, and I respect your opinion and/or your taste. What ever you end up doing with regards to the finish, I think that you will be very pleased!
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post #292 of 401 Old 07-09-2013, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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They will be in roughly these positions. I need to make stands for all three at some point.



There is no way to make it work otherwise due to the shape of the room and the rooms it opens to. As for the finish, the wife and I talked about it at length and she agreed that black is preferred. Why would black not be an option for you? Just curious. I painted the 8330's I built in the wall color and liked how that reduces their size visually.
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post #293 of 401 Old 07-10-2013, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I have updated everything in the first post here to reflect both cost and products used with pictures. Giving myself a few days to get this part of the larger project done. Crossing my fingers they will be done by this weekend so I can go send some lead down range. biggrin.gif
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post #294 of 401 Old 07-10-2013, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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It is over 100deg in my garage. I sweat just thinking about it. So I brought the remaining cabinets inside. Going to get the cabinets lined and then back out for the final sanding and Duratex while my son is napping. Here they are.



Had I known I wanted to do all slot ports a year ago the surrounds would be that way too. Oh well.
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post #295 of 401 Old 07-10-2013, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Took me a long time and a couple cans of spray adhesive, but I got the lining done. I am glad I went ahead and got 20ft and not the original 10ft I had estimated. I only had a few scraps left over.



There is sanding in my future tomorrow.
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post #296 of 401 Old 07-11-2013, 11:16 AM
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i use JBL 8330's for surrounds as well

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post #297 of 401 Old 07-11-2013, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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i use JBL 8330's for surrounds as well

I am very happy with them as surrounds. I have not figured out how I am going to incorporate the second set yet. I will likely have to store them in one of the cabinets on either side of the fireplace and take them out when I have the opportunity to use them. I have that weird door and half wall behind the recliner. It has been a pain in my butt since we moved here. I would love to extend that wall out one day. Until then I will be sticking with the 5.1 and later 5.4 until I can figure that out.
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post #298 of 401 Old 07-11-2013, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

I am very happy with them as surrounds. I have not figured out how I am going to incorporate the second set yet. I will likely have to store them in one of the cabinets on either side of the fireplace and take them out when I have the opportunity to use them. I have that weird door and half wall behind the recliner. It has been a pain in my butt since we moved here. I would love to extend that wall out one day. Until then I will be sticking with the 5.1 and later 5.4 until I can figure that out.

Same. I'm sticking with a 5.1 right now, 7.1 just seems overkill, or at least, for my REALLY tiny room.
I use a pair of the 8340's as mine. They're hard to beat for the $$.
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post #299 of 401 Old 07-11-2013, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsnasty View Post

Same. I'm sticking with a 5.1 right now, 7.1 just seems overkill, or at least, for my REALLY tiny room.
I use a pair of the 8340's as mine. They're hard to beat for the $$.

Mine came out to $55each. smile.gif I totally agree, for the $ they are very hard to beat.
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post #300 of 401 Old 07-14-2013, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Sanding is done and I picked one to start rolling. I am trying to reserve how I feel about the finish with the rollers I ordered. The peaks are way too high. I went back and knocked them down with the roller with out adding paint to it. I should have experimented with the product on scrap first to achieve the result I was after. So I am going to do that today and see what I come up with. More pics later. Crossing my fingers this first coats peaks lay down more as it drys and/or I can find a level of finish I prefer on scrap and coat it again to fill in the peaks. Now I know why so many people post after using Duratex asking for direction. It is unlike any coating I have ever used. biggrin.gif
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