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post #1 of 401 Old 03-05-2013, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I wanted to begin by saying Thank you to everyone that has helped me in making my final decision. My middle name really should be Secondguesser. Erich, Bill, Nate, and everyone else who were involved, Thank you. I also wanted to say Thank you to ChopShop1 and John at AE for executing the GB. I was waffling between the SEOS 15/AE TD15M and the SOES 12/AE TD12M. Although I can easily fit the larger design, I don't believe it is necessary in the room it is going to be used in.

I have placed my order for the AE TD12M's already. I was going to wait a few days for Erich to get caught up before I ordered the SEOS 12 and DNA 360. It will be a little while till I receive the drivers from AE, so I want to iron out the details before then. I wanted to start this thread in an attempt to gather information as well as make sure I was on the right track.

Total: $778.00 for 3-AE TD12M's via the Group Deal.



My first big task is to order parts for the crossovers and assembly. Here is the list as I have it cued at PE. I based these on the passive crossover Bill designed and posted here: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=74.0

Crossover:

1) 2.7 Ohm 5W Resistor Wire Wound 5% Tolerance
Part Number: 015-2.7
Item price: $0.42
QTY (3)
Total: $1.26
2) 3.3 Ohm 5W Resistor Wire Wound 5% Tolerance
Part Number: 015-3.3
Item price: $0.42
QTY (6)
Total: $2.52
3) 10 Ohm 10W Resistor Wire Wound 5% Tolerance
Part Number: 016-10
Item price: $0.64
QTY (3)
Total: $1.92
4) 12 Ohm 10W Resistor Wire Wound 5% Tolerance
Part Number: 016-12
Item price: $0.64
QTY (3)
Total: $1.92
5) Dayton Audio DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part Number: 027-430
Item price: $4.81
QTY (3)
Total: $14.43
6) Dayton Audio DMPC-18 18uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part Number: 027-434
Item price: $5.93
QTY (3)
Total: $17.79
7) Jantzen 0.10mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor
Part Number: 255-020
Item price: $2.90
QTY (3)
Total: $8.70
8) 3.5mH 18 AWG I Core Inductor
Part Number: 266-560
Item price: $10.30
QTY (3)
Total: $30.90
9) Dayton Audio DMPC-2.2 2.2uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part Number: 027-415
Item price: $1.72
QTY (3)
Total: $5.16
10) Jantzen 0.90mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor
Part Number: 255-046
Item price: $5.76
QTY (3)
Total: $17.28
11) Dual-Ended Gold Terminal Pair
Part Number: 091-1154
Item price: $7.80
QTY (3)
Total: $23.40
12) NTE 25-B600-02 2 Pole 25A Panel Mount Barrier Terminal Str
Part Number: 090-872
Item price: $1.60
QTY (3)
Total: $14.40
Sub Total: $139.68
($5.00) $5 Customer Appreciation Reward CODE: 2013SAVE5off50
Shipping was included.
Total: $134.68 for 1--12 above





Please let me know if I am missing anything or you have a suggestion.

The plan past that is to order blank front baffles from Erich with the waveguides and cd's. I would rather have the recess for the waveguides cut with the precision I don't have. The woofer recess and slot port is within my skill level. The overall space available for the cabinets is 30" high and 24" in depth and 22" wide. I don't think I will need that much, but it is there if I need it. My next questions are about optimal enclosure volume for the TD12M and tuning. (Note) I currently have a single sealed Titanic 15" on sub duty and have 4- 18" Q's here ready to be built, however have put that build on hold to focus on getting my mains in order. Considering my equipment, I was going to tune to 60Hz. I will have them crossed at 80Hz when the 18"s were in use. Although I will not always have the 18"s fired up. Is this advisable? Has anyone modeled and/or know the optimal enclosure volume for the TD12M? I like the idea of internally separating the waveguide from the woofer and will plan for that and take it into account when ordering the baffle. I also would like to house the crossover in the upper chamber where the waveguide.cd will be I like how RB's turned out and have linked his build below. I understand he had a limitation on cabinet size due to space constraints but I don't have that constraint, thus me asking if there is a more optimized enclosure.

3-11-2013:

Ordered the SEOS 12 and DNA360's today just to keep the ball rolling.

1) SEOS-12™ Matte FinishSEOS-12™ Matte Finish
Item number: plastic_seos_matte
Item price: $28.00
QTY: 3
Total: $84.00



2) Denovo DNA-360 Compression DriverDenovo DNA-360 Compression Driver
Item number: DNA-360
Item price: $75.50
QTY: 3
Total: $226.50



Shipping was $16.08
Total: $326.58 for the SEOS 12 and DNA360 shipped.

I will itemize everything with costs assigned as this progresses as well for those interested.

I also added a link to AV Science Sales 5 (Mike's) to the sources as I have been referencing his build thread a lot.

4/18/2013:
Added $58.15 for 3-26" pre cut baffles from Erich.



6/2/2013:
+$6 because I am a PITA. :P Thank you Erich.
I also forgot to add the cost for the 2 sheets of 3/4" MDF +$65

6/27/2013:
Mounting hardware: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=081-430 $3.80



Gasket for the waveguides: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-540 $7.90



$11.05 for shipping on the gasket tape and screws. Total was $22.15

6/29/2013:
Wire selection: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
I will be purchasing from 100ft spool of 12ga from http://www.monoprice.com/ Details on price comparison are in post 269.



http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2789&seq=1&format=2
Total: $38.90

Cabinet coating. I will be ordering 1gal of roller grade Duratex from http://www.speakerhardware.com/duratex-roller-grade.php http://www.speakerhardware.com/ was out of stock so I had to use another source. http://www.acrytech.com/ had some in stock so I ordered the Duratex and a pair of acrylic rollers. Here is the breakdown.



http://store.acrytech.com/Speaker-Cabinet-Coating-DuraTex-Roller-Grade-Black.html $52.50
http://store.acrytech.com/4-Texture-Roller-2-Pack-Refill.html $3.75
Tax: $3.38
Shipping: $13.96

Total: $73.59

7/2/2013:
Cabinet lining: http://meniscusaudio.com/bonded-dacron-p-185.html



I got 20 ft of this although I will only use 10 on these LCR's. The rest is for my surrounds.

$19.40
Shipping: $12.56

Total: $31.96

Project Total: $1535.01



Thanks for looking,

Chris

Sources:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1291022/hey-guys-we-need-a-little-rallying-here
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1431906/seos-12-td12m-dna-360-build (Nate)
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1433151/my-td12m-seos-12-build (Mike)
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=74.0
http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=5
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1457938/ae-group-buy-2013
http://www.parts-express.com/
http://meniscusaudio.com/
http://www.monoprice.com/
http://www.speakerhardware.com/
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post #2 of 401 Old 03-05-2013, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

. My middle name really should be Secondguesser.

I think a lot of us are in that same boat.
Quote:
I was waffling between the SEOS 15/AE TD15M and the SOES 12/AE TD12M. Although I can easily fit the larger design, I don't believe it is necessary in the room it is going to be used in.

I know the feeling and have been in the exact same dilemma as you. I waffled back and forth between the TD15 and 12. I don't need the 15 and the 12 would actually fit a bit better. I ordered the 15, and even now I am having second thoughts, lol. I just hate the "what if" feeling. smile.gif

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post #3 of 401 Old 03-05-2013, 12:29 PM
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Cool deal Chris. I will say, the TD12M is more of a midrange driver, so you'll need to run these with subs all the time. Optimum enclosure size, I'd say between 1.0-1.5. For instance, 1.5 ft^3, 50Hz tune, vented 2"x12"x13", gives an f3 of ~73Hz, low port resonance. Whereas, 1.5 ft^3, ~41Hz tune, 1"x12"x10", f3 88Hz. You see how the tradeoffs begin to take effect, the lower it is tuned, the higher the f3 point, and as you adjust to keep port resonance down tuning goes up. I wouldn't second guess yourself, man. You've chosen a very fine driver, but it must be run with subs.

Your list looks to be in order. The blank baffles will be 14.5" wide though, not 22".

If you want to build a replica of mine, I can give you the cutlist and we can talk about it over phone if ya want. However I can help. smile.gif


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post #4 of 401 Old 03-05-2013, 01:48 PM
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I followed Mike's build. I personally think it's slightly easier than RoboBunny (t left out on purpose). Either way, you're getting a great build. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1433151/my-td12m-seos-12-build

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post #5 of 401 Old 03-05-2013, 02:03 PM
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Great to see another build getting started with the group buy deals! I know you're going to like these things based on Mike and Robot's experience with theirs. I haven't heard the AE drivers, but for the prices on the group buy, it was a no brainer. I will be watching for sure


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post #6 of 401 Old 03-05-2013, 02:19 PM
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Hey Peter. How'd I miss that?!? Cabs are looking great! Finally got my phase plugs too. woot! biggrin.gif

Ya, Chris, mine is harder for sure. PIA, in fact...I did a floating port.


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post #7 of 401 Old 03-05-2013, 02:40 PM
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Hey Peter. How'd I miss that?!? Cabs are looking great! Finally got my phase plugs too. woot! biggrin.gif

Ya, Chris, mine is harder for sure. PIA, in fact...I did a floating port.
I didn't start a thread. Just posted some pics in Mike's thread, but I only have one cabinet and it's not done. I may be adding 3/4" mdf on the sides so I can do a larger roundover and then veneer them. A WAF thing.

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post #8 of 401 Old 03-05-2013, 03:08 PM
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It looks like one great big family here. I have been waiting for Eric to get some flat packs together for the Td12m, but I may just have to go out and shell out some big bucks for some decent tools and do it myself. I do like how robot Bunny separated the top from woofer, but I can't wrap my head around how he did the slot port. That's why I will do a design like Mike's.


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post #9 of 401 Old 03-05-2013, 03:32 PM
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It looks like one great big family here. I have been waiting for Eric to get some flat packs together for the Td12m, but I may just have to go out and shell out some big bucks for some decent tools and do it myself. I do like how robot Bunny separated the top from woofer, but I can't wrap my head around how he did the slot port. That's why I will do a design like Mike's.

That slot port is a bit complicated. Mike's is very strait forward.

Erich's baffles are worth waiting for and the flat packs are a snap to put together.

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post #10 of 401 Old 03-06-2013, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I followed Mike's build. I personally think it's slightly easier than RoboBunny (t left out on purpose). Either way, you're getting a great build. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1433151/my-td12m-seos-12-build

Thanks for the link! I like that slot port placement. That will match my subwoofer enclosures a lot better. I am stuck on wanting a separate chamber for the waveguide/cd and crossover up top. I think it will be easier to access the crossover if I need to as well as giving the TD12M its own enclosure. Am I over thinking this? I hate when my mind gets stuck on a detail like this.
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Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

Thanks for the link! I like that slot port placement. That will match my subwoofer enclosures a lot better. I am stuck on wanting a separate chamber for the waveguide/cd and crossover up top. I think it will be easier to access the crossover if I need to as well as giving the TD12M its own enclosure. Am I over thinking this? I hate when my mind gets stuck on a detail like this.

The slot port makes a nice place to put the crossover on. If you're building your own box and not using a flat pack, then it's fine to build a separate chamber but unnecessary. If you're going with a flat pack you'll have a vertical brace to deal with. I think at that point you'll be making it more complicated. I don't know if putting the compression drivers has any benefit at all. However, you'll be reducing the box volume and fr if you go with a flatpack and separate chamber.

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post #12 of 401 Old 03-06-2013, 08:39 AM
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It looks like one great big family here. I have been waiting for Eric to get some flat packs together for the Td12m, but I may just have to go out and shell out some big bucks for some decent tools and do it myself. I do like how robot Bunny separated the top from woofer, but I can't wrap my head around how he did the slot port. That's why I will do a design like Mike's.


I've got the design for the sealed version, and a sealed version that can be made into a slot port.

The easiest thing would be to simply use regular ports and the box design would be so much easier. The only benefit I can see for a slot port is to make a box shorter in height. But the boxes are tall anyway, so regular circular ports seem to be a no brainer.


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post #13 of 401 Old 03-06-2013, 08:46 AM
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I've got the design for the sealed version, and a sealed version that can be made into a slot port.

The easiest thing would be to simply use regular ports and the box design would be so much easier. The only benefit I can see for a slot port is to make a box shorter in height. But the boxes are tall anyway, so regular circular ports seem to be a no brainer.

I'd go this route if I wasn't already committed.

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post #14 of 401 Old 03-06-2013, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

The slot port makes a nice place to put the crossover on. If you're building your own box and not using a flat pack, then it's fine to build a separate chamber but unnecessary. If you're going with a flat pack you'll have a vertical brace to deal with. I think at that point you'll be making it more complicated. I don't know if putting the compression drivers has any benefit at all. However, you'll be reducing the box volume and fr if you go with a flatpack and separate chamber.

I was going to pick the appropriately sized baffle and build the enclosure around it. If Erich had a flat pack already, Similar to Mike's enclosure, I would save the time and go that route for sure.I will shoot him an email and see if there is a time frame on something along those lines. I am good with the single common chamber if there is no benefit from them being separate.

I just went to submit my order with PE and the gold plated binding posts I want are on back order. I am going to order them anyway. They are due back in stock before the AE drivers will ship, so I will keep my fingers crossed..

Edit: $134.68 for all the parts in my first post with a $5off coupon. Not too shabby.
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post #15 of 401 Old 03-06-2013, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I've got the design for the sealed version, and a sealed version that can be made into a slot port.

The easiest thing would be to simply use regular ports and the box design would be so much easier. The only benefit I can see for a slot port is to make a box shorter in height. But the boxes are tall anyway, so regular circular ports seem to be a no brainer.

Erich, I feel like I am beating you up man. tongue.gif I appreciate your patience as I make these decisions. The main reason I wanted to do slot ports was to match my subwoofer enclosures. I an going to run everything across the front wall under my tv as this room is limiting placement. If you picture 4 Captivator's across the front. (L)(SUB)(SUB)(C)(SUB)(SUB)(R) or (SUB)(L)(SUB)(C)(SUB)(R)(SUB) all with slot ports. I just think it would look cool when all the grills are removed.

Is there an example on the site to give me an idea of what the round ports would look like? Maybe like the Fusion-12 Tempest? If the LCR's end up with grills, I will be doing all the work for nothing. I can't keep grills on the sub, so I won't bother with those. My son likes to watch the driver move, so he pulls the grill off. He doesn't seem interested in the mains.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I've got the design for the sealed version, and a sealed version that can be made into a slot port.

The easiest thing would be to simply use regular ports and the box design would be so much easier. The only benefit I can see for a slot port is to make a box shorter in height. But the boxes are tall anyway, so regular circular ports seem to be a no brainer.

Erich, do you have a link? Dimensions? What's the internal volume?


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post #17 of 401 Old 03-06-2013, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

Thanks for the link! I like that slot port placement. That will match my subwoofer enclosures a lot better. I am stuck on wanting a separate chamber for the waveguide/cd and crossover up top. I think it will be easier to access the crossover if I need to as well as giving the TD12M its own enclosure. Am I over thinking this? I hate when my mind gets stuck on a detail like this.

I placed my crossover right on top of the slot port. Just designed the crossover board to fit the space available. Used Velcro to hold it in place.

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post #18 of 401 Old 03-06-2013, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

Erich, I feel like I am beating you up man. tongue.gif I appreciate your patience as I make these decisions. The main reason I wanted to do slot ports was to match my subwoofer enclosures. I an going to run everything across the front wall under my tv as this room is limiting placement. If you picture 4 Captivator's across the front. (L)(SUB)(SUB)(C)(SUB)(SUB)(R) or (SUB)(L)(SUB)(C)(SUB)(R)(SUB) all with slot ports. I just think it would look cool when all the grills are removed.

Is there an example on the site to give me an idea of what the round ports would look like? Maybe like the Fusion-12 Tempest? If the LCR's end up with grills, I will be doing all the work for nothing. I can't keep grills on the sub, so I won't bother with those. My son likes to watch the driver move, so he pulls the grill off. He doesn't seem interested in the mains.

With these speakers, he will be real bored with the mains. They hardly move. smile.gif

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post #19 of 401 Old 03-06-2013, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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With these speakers, he will be real bored with the mains. They hardly move. smile.gif

I currently have Cerwin Vega VS-120's for L&R's. It takes a lot of volume to get them moving as well. More volume than I will do with him in the room. I am glad he will be bored with them. smile.gif

Side story, I grabbed one of his banana stickers and stuck it on the Titanic's cone. He absolutely loves watching it. He points at the sub and says boom boom if it isn't on. tongue.gif Definitely no denying he is mine.
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post #20 of 401 Old 03-06-2013, 10:46 AM
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Erich, I feel like I am beating you up man. tongue.gif I appreciate your patience as I make these decisions..
^^^I feel this way too^^^^
Can I get the 2.0 cu ft flatpacks with the baffle precut for the AE TD12M? Does it come with 3 circle ports? What about a slot port precut?
Thanks
Chris
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post #21 of 401 Old 03-06-2013, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I placed my crossover right on top of the slot port. Just designed the crossover board to fit the space available. Used Velcro to hold it in place.

Thank you Mike. I will keep that in mind if I stick with that plan. Also, Thank you for sharing your build. I know all too well the value of time.
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post #22 of 401 Old 03-06-2013, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I think a lot of us are in that same boat.
I know the feeling and have been in the exact same dilemma as you. I waffled back and forth between the TD15 and 12. I don't need the 15 and the 12 would actually fit a bit better. I ordered the 15, and even now I am having second thoughts, lol. I just hate the "what if" feeling. smile.gif

I went back and forth, the end decision came down to me being able to get the output and response I want in my room with the smaller, cheaper, and less intensive option. Before the AE GB Chop set up, I had already been in contact with Erich several times about the Sentinel. The GB put another option in reach and swayed me into the unknown, for me at least. I am crossing my fingers that I made the right decision based upon others experience and input. I am confident I will have some size envy when your drivers come in. tongue.gif I look forward to seeing your build.
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Cool deal Chris. I will say, the TD12M is more of a midrange driver, so you'll need to run these with subs all the time. Optimum enclosure size, I'd say between 1.0-1.5. For instance, 1.5 ft^3, 50Hz tune, vented 2"x12"x13", gives an f3 of ~73Hz, low port resonance. Whereas, 1.5 ft^3, ~41Hz tune, 1"x12"x10", f3 88Hz. You see how the tradeoffs begin to take effect, the lower it is tuned, the higher the f3 point, and as you adjust to keep port resonance down tuning goes up. I wouldn't second guess yourself, man. You've chosen a very fine driver, but it must be run with subs.

Your list looks to be in order. The blank baffles will be 14.5" wide though, not 22".

If you want to build a replica of mine, I can give you the cutlist and we can talk about it over phone if ya want. However I can help. smile.gif

Thanks RB! I know absolutely nothing about tuning and F3 results less the general movement you described. My time to do research usually lasts about 10 minutes before my son realizes he does not have my attention. And then there is Yo Gabba Gabba. I am wondering if the kit Erich has in mind has a specific tuning/F3 based upon an "optimal" configuration? I don't mind tuning higher as I will have plenty of firepower down low. I can always turn the subs down when needed.

I appreciate the offer for your help as well. I am going to wait and see what Erich has up his sleeve before I pull the trigger on which enclosure to go with.
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post #24 of 401 Old 03-09-2013, 02:41 PM
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The easiest thing would be to simply use regular ports and the box design would be so much easier. The only benefit I can see for a slot port is to make a box shorter in height. But the boxes are tall anyway, so regular circular ports seem to be a no brainer.
This seams to be the easiest way to go while not loosing much low end compared to the sealed option. The 3 port design mated to the 2.0 flapacks. What would the f3 be in this configuration?
Chis W
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post #25 of 401 Old 03-10-2013, 07:50 AM
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Good question. What is the f3 tuning for this setup?


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post #26 of 401 Old 03-10-2013, 10:00 AM
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It can be tuned pretty much anywhere you want it. I cut the ports down to 6" for the Tempest. I can't recall where that tunes it, but it might be around 42hz? I'd have to double check. They could always be cut shorter if needed.


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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

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As a good rule i generally try to tune about 1/2 octave below tuning. This keeps the group delay and vent velocity down. So if crossing at 80hz, tuning would be around 60hz ideally or lower.
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As a good rule i generally try to tune about 1/2 octave below tuning. This keeps the group delay and vent velocity down. So if crossing at 80hz, tuning would be around 60hz ideally or lower.

Thank you for your input John. Would you please elaborate on your comment, "ideally lower?" As I am still in the planning phase of this, so I can build whatever I want.
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post #29 of 401 Old 03-11-2013, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Until I make a decision on the enclosure, I wanted to make some kind of forward movement. I ordered 3- SEOS 12's in plastic and 3- DNA360's today. smile.gif Add $328.58 to my running total for those that are tracking cost.
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post #30 of 401 Old 03-11-2013, 07:42 AM
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Until I make a decision on the enclosure, I wanted to make some kind of forward movement. I ordered the SEOS 12 in plastic and the DNA360's today. smile.gif Add $328.58 to my running total for those that are tracking cost.

Just so you know, the gloss finish SEOS looks really good with that A&E woofer.

I was also messing around with the gloss models and painted some matte black, then hit them with some satin clear coat just to see how they turned out. They looked great.


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