Completely new room plans - What to do now with the two SI HT 18s I just bought? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 03-06-2013, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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A couple weeks back I bought two SI HT 18" D4 drivers in anticipation of starting to build out my theater. I planned to put each one in a 4 cubic foot sealed sonotube, run them at 2 ohms, and run the pair off of a EP2000 or similar. The room at that time was planned to be around 2000 cubic feet.

After the wife told me the configuration of the basement that she would prefer (which means the configuration I will be using biggrin.gif) the space will now be closer to 6350 cubic feet since the theater will be open to most of the rest of the basement.

So what to do now? I've been thinking of just getting two more of the D4s and a second amp, running four separate sealed subs at 2 ohms. This way I could put all four up front or spread them around the theater. Another option would be to get two more D4s and build two dual-opposed. This would mean wiring them up at 4 ohms, probably requiring more power.

If I knew about the room configuration I might have gone with the D2 drivers to begin with, buying four to get two dual-opposed subs wired at 2 ohms. Even if Stereo Integrity would exchange them at this point I really don't want to pay to ship them back.

Any thoughts? I guess I can't go wrong with the new pre-order price no matter what I do. tongue.gif
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post #2 of 23 Old 03-06-2013, 06:46 PM
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Uh, discuss with your wife instead of just letting her roll over you. It's both of your basements. I see this trend a lot on here of people saying "the wife said no so thats that". I you planned for 2k feed and it's 6350 feet that's a huge different. I'm no huge audiophile, but I'm an anal planner and there is no way I'd let my plans to go straight shiit when it's my own hobby. It'd be equivalent to your wife asking (and actually really caring) you if she could buy a dress that she wants and then you saying no and picking out one she hates and forcing her to wear it. Well not equivalent but you catch my drift.

Go have a discussion with your wife try not to use overly technical HT terms and simply say something along the lines of "This is my hobby, I really want this room in our new basement, etc." and see if you don't actually get what you want.
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post #3 of 23 Old 03-06-2013, 07:01 PM
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I might be interested in your d4's if you do want to sell them. biggrin.gif

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post #4 of 23 Old 03-06-2013, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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tential, I think you probably took the statement about my wife a little too literally. In all actuality I'm very pleased she took interest in the theater and gave me her input. The larger layout is one I thought of originally, but she didn't like it at the time for reasons she's now gotten over. I'm quite happy with the new layout, it just means changing plans for some equipment -- in this case more subs to fill the extra volume.
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post #5 of 23 Old 03-06-2013, 07:46 PM
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I wasn't sure if that was an option. I just hear people say "My wife said no so no!" and it's confusing because I'm almost positive marriage is a relationship and no a wife dictatorship which a lot of people seem to make it out to be on here. If you got the money for it, by all means go for a larger layout! I would if i could.

Kind of sucks that you planned for the smaller layout because you thought you wouldn't get the big one and now you got it.

Options
1) Sell drivers and buy the ones you want
I like this one the best. I HATE to spend extra money, but in this case it's unavoidable as it'd be a sunk cost. Why not? You'll always wonder what if anyway, and that's the worse feeling to have.
2) Keep them and get 2 more.
I don't really like this one as much but you said it and it's a great idea. I just think you'll have that "What if?" feeling but if you can do it do it!
3) Hold on to them
You never know when you may want to use them for something else.
4) Make a box and sell it.
Kind of a weird one I know but I think if you found a buyer first it could work. I know me, I'm definitely interested in DIY but I don't like handiwork at all but I like things custom made for me. Since I'm assuming this is something you love to do, charging an extra 50 bucks over(or whatever) materials could work. I do this with computer stuff a lot and it works. I assume if you like HT you know other people that do. I like this option the best actually because you'll still get to hear the finished product, and when you see whoever bought it from you, they'll love it.
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post #6 of 23 Old 03-06-2013, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by tential View Post

Options
1) Sell drivers and buy the ones you want
I like this one the best. I HATE to spend extra money, but in this case it's unavoidable as it'd be a sunk cost. Why not? You'll always wonder what if anyway, and that's the worse feeling to have.

Me too. Get me some moar d4's! biggrin.gif

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post #7 of 23 Old 03-07-2013, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess I should ask what the benefits/drawbacks would be of any of these particular subwoofer setups. Maybe a picture would help.



All the blue is just a rough idea where a bedroom, bathroom, and kitchenette will go. It's all completely unfinished at the moment. All the extra cubic footage will come from the theater space now being open to most of the rest of the basement whereas before it would have been tucked into the bottom right corner (not an ideal space itself).

So, is it best to have all the woofage on the screen wall or maybe put two of the four on the side walls?

If the answer is up front, four individual subs or two dual-opposed?

If dual-opposed, would wiring D2s up in 2 ohm be that much easier/better/cheaper than D4s in 4 ohm? I'm guessing that if I get two more D4s and more power (I haven't bought any amps yet) to run them in 4 ohm it might be cheaper in the long run and wouldn't sound any different. Correct me if I'm wrong, but an EP4000 should run those just fine, right?

I think I'm talking myself into more D4s...

Scott, how many D4s do you have already? I know you've been all over the SI HT 18 main thread, but I forget what you built.
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post #8 of 23 Old 03-07-2013, 08:23 AM
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Wow. That's a large area to fill with bass. You might need to get another pair of 18's but I guess that depends on how much bass you want. Starting up front is good and then adding extra subs to smooth out response from there is a nice idea. Whether you go dual-opposed or not does not make much difference in overall performance. If you do though each subwoofer would have to be twice as big than a single driver enclosure. That might be your deciding factor.

I have eight d4's currently with plans to put a pair each in four seperate dual-opposed enclosures. I would like to add two to four more 18's right behind the couch as I'll have the current set all up front near the mains. I joke but I really don't need them ....right now. Guess I should finish what I'm working on before piling on some more.

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post #9 of 23 Old 03-08-2013, 08:58 AM
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How loud is it now?
How much louder do you want it?
How much money are you working with and/or willing to spend to get that SPL?
What is the maximum quantity of subs you can support?
What is the maximum dimensions of the sub(s) that can be supported?
What are you using for XO/EQ?
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post #10 of 23 Old 03-08-2013, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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BassThatHz,

Since I haven't built anything yet (subs or room), I can't answer how loud it is now or how much louder I want it. I guess I've just gone off the assumption that with that big of a space I would need more than the 2 18s. I'll try to answer some of the other questions.

How much money are you working with and/or willing to spend to get that SPL? -- I don't want to spend more than about $1500 on the drivers and amp(s). The enclosures shouldn't cost too much for sonotube and a sheet or two of MDF.

What is the maximum quantity of subs you can support? -- I wouldn't say there's a maximum based on space. I could stack them behind the screen if needed. And I could certainly put two more out in the room. It would more be based on cost.

What is the maximum dimensions of the sub(s) that can be supported? -- To sit behind the screen the sub couldn't be more than about 28" deep or so. I had thought about some very large sonotubes in a LLT, but I really don't know anything about that. When someone says 4 cubic feet for a sealed enclosure, I can do that. Figuring out the size, tuning, port and whatnot is a bit beyond me. I tried messing with WinISD but couldn't get it to work right on my machine.

What are you using for XO/EQ? -- Nothing yet (don't even have an amp at the moment), and I really don't know much about this. The only thing I'd really looked at so far was to buy a receiver, when the time comes, that has Audyssey Sub EQ HT. I liked the idea of Audyssey MultEQ XT32, and it appears that all the receivers that come with that also come with Sub EQ HT. Should I look at something else?

Thanks.
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post #11 of 23 Old 03-09-2013, 09:59 PM
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A lot of people go with the Nu3000DSP because it offers a lot of value at a very low cost and includes the EQ + XO features needed.

I would say get that and finish the first two, and then if that isn't loud enough, just add more of the same.

Most rooms above 4000cuft end up using 4 or 8 subs. Every time you double the subs and amps you gain roughly 6db. So 8 subs and 4 amps, would be 12db louder than 2 on 1 amp.
Most people give up after building 8.
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post #12 of 23 Old 03-10-2013, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, BassThatHz. I'll have to look more seriously at the Nu3000DSP. Your recommendation to build the first two is probably the reasonable way to go. I think the current pre-order price on the drivers is what got me thinking about just buying them now instead of waiting like you say. Decisions, decisions.
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post #13 of 23 Old 05-09-2013, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, I haven't been in this thread for a while. I also haven't built anything yet (sub or room). I was waiting on finishing the last class of my Master's, and now that's all done. I decided to stick with the D4s, but I read a bit more, and now I'm really interested in doing some LLT sonos. There should be room behind the screen for sonotubes up to about 28" in diameter, so I'm not too concerned about size. I'm thinking something like 25 cubic ft tuned to 11Hz, but I really know very little about what I'm doing with that stuff.

I'm sure some of you have done the LLTs before. Any thoughts?

I figured if that doesn't do it for me I'll get two more drivers and another amp.
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post #14 of 23 Old 05-10-2013, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trancemitr View Post

Okay, I haven't been in this thread for a while. I also haven't built anything yet (sub or room). I was waiting on finishing the last class of my Master's, and now that's all done. I decided to stick with the D4s, but I read a bit more, and now I'm really interested in doing some LLT sonos. There should be room behind the screen for sonotubes up to about 28" in diameter, so I'm not too concerned about size. I'm thinking something like 25 cubic ft tuned to 11Hz, but I really know very little about what I'm doing with that stuff.

I'm sure some of you have done the LLTs before. Any thoughts?

I figured if that doesn't do it for me I'll get two more drivers and another amp.


With a room that is over 6000 cubic feet I would highly recommend that you go with 4 at a minimum. Also, I would do 4 seperate enclosures,
(or 2 depending on how many subs you end up with), as with 4 enclosures you can smooth out the low frequency responce better than having
2 duel opposed enclosures. I would power them with a Behringer EP4000, like your originally planned, then pick up a MiniDsp sometime when
you get the chance. If you get a receiver with Audyssey XT32 & SubEQ HT then you should EQ them with the MiniDsp and then run Audyssey do it's
thing after you EQ as that is how most of us do it. Good luck!
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post #15 of 23 Old 05-10-2013, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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With a room that is over 6000 cubic feet I would highly recommend that you go with 4 at a minimum. Also, I would do 4 seperate enclosures,
(or 2 depending on how many subs you end up with), as with 4 enclosures you can smooth out the low frequency responce better than having
2 duel opposed enclosures. I would power them with a Behringer EP4000, like your originally planned, then pick up a MiniDsp sometime when
you get the chance. If you get a receiver with Audyssey XT32 & SubEQ HT then you should EQ them with the MiniDsp and then run Audyssey do it's
thing after you EQ as that is how most of us do it. Good luck!

Funny you should mention going with at least four; I ordered two more D4s shortly after my original posts. I figured I'd at least get them ordered while they were at the pre-order price. I was going to first build the two while waiting for the others to ship. I do plan on doing separate LLT enclosures.

I'm still looking for opinions on size and tuning, but you made me think of something else I'm curious about. If you've got subs in four separate locations, how do you EQ them? I've never messed with EQing subs before. Would you EQ them as two pairs (left front and left side as one pair, right front and side as the other pair)? I ask because I'm pretty sure the receivers with Aydyssey SubEQ HT work with subs as x.2. Or, can you EQ each sub individually? I see the minidsp has two inputs and four outputs, so that would make sense.

And one more thing.... If I get something as powerful as an iNuke 6000 could I power two of the subs off of each channel of the amp? If it would work to power four subs I figure one iNuke 6000 is cheaper than a pair of EP4000s/EP2500s.

Thanks.
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post #16 of 23 Old 05-18-2013, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Still looking for help with some questions. Any help is appreciated.

1. What's the best size and tuning for SI HT 18 D4s in a LLT configuration? I'm looking for clean, low output. I was thinking 25 cubic feet at 11Hz. Is there a better option? I'd like to start building, so this is the most important question at the moment.

2. How best to EQ 4 subs in different locations? Individually, pairs? Post 15 has the full explanation.

3. Power requirements. I plan on 4 separate enclosures. Is it best to go with 2 amps (e.g. 2x iNuke 3000/EP2500) to power them as 4 separate channels or just 1 more powerful amp (e.g. iNuke 6000)? I assume this will have to do with how they get EQ'ed.

Thanks.
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post #17 of 23 Old 05-18-2013, 06:54 AM
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How low do you want to go? There have been several LLT builds here, few lately due to the current sealed subwoofer phase.

I will be building a large tapered tapped quarter wave pipe build this summer for a maelstrom-X driver (-3 dB at 13 Hz). Models well with both the SI and Dayton 18" drivers, just won't play as loud due to less Xmax. 4 SI drivers should put out over 120 dB per Hornresp in 2 Pi space at 14 Hz.

Here is Hornresp model data for the Mal-X driver, the data for the SI driver is on another computer I have that is not on the internet. I can post modeled data later if you would like.


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post #18 of 23 Old 05-18-2013, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trancemitr View Post

2. How best to EQ 4 subs in different locations? Individually, pairs? Post 15 has the full explanation.

Ideally, adjust the phase/delay on each one individually, then EQ them collectively. If that doesn't work, then adjust phase/delay individually and then EQ individually. If the iNuke won't let you do different EQs for each channel, then group the subs in similar distances, for example, front vs rear so that way they'll have the same phase/delay. EQ the fronts and then EQ the rears.

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post #19 of 23 Old 05-18-2013, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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NWCgrad, it's funny you mention the "current sealed phase." I originally planned on going that route, but I figured I'd need something with more output for the bigger room. If you've got the info for SI stuff I'd love to see it. As far as how low I want to go, I'd say I want solid output down to around 10Hz. I don't know that there's much material that goes lower than that.

Looneybomber, thanks for the suggestions on EQing. It sounds like what you're saying would require two amps since setting phase/delay on subs in four locations would require four separate channels, unless I did what you say about grouping as fronts and rears. It shouldn't be hard to make sure distances within each pair are equal (i.e. both fronts, both rears). I think after setting phase and delay a receiver with Audyssey Sub EQ HT would be able to then EQ everything collectively. If that'd work, I have a follow-up question that will show my newbie ignorance: does a regular, non-DSP amp have phase and delay? I could spend less on two "regular" amps and put the savings toward the receiver.
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post #20 of 23 Old 05-19-2013, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trancemitr View Post

does a regular, non-DSP amp have phase and delay?
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trancemitr View Post

I could spend less on two "regular" amps and put the savings toward the receiver.
Sure. But if your reasoning to do it is to adjust the time delay between subs and/or EQ them individually, you'd still have to get a pre/pro.

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post #21 of 23 Old 05-19-2013, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
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NWCgrad, it's funny you mention the "current sealed phase." I originally planned on going that route, but I figured I'd need something with more output for the bigger room. If you've got the info for SI stuff I'd love to see it. As far as how low I want to go, I'd say I want solid output down to around 10Hz. I don't know that there's much material that goes lower than that.

I attached a PDF of the Hornresp input and data for the SI HT driver in my TTWQT design. With a 10 Hz High Pass Filter (BW, 4th Order) to control cone excursion you can hit 100 dB at 10 Hz (compared to around 110 dB for 13 Hz and 117 dB for 20 Hz). Cone excursion is still above Xmax at around 11 Hz, but with rolloff in the signal chain and the fact that music is about 1/8 power it should be fine for 600 W input. As with all tapered horns the useable range is limited, this particular design can go up to about 60 Hz before it gets really goofy. I plan to cut it off at 40 Hz and use it only as an ULF sub to augment my two LAB-12 transmission line subs (flat to 20 Hz).

If you want louder, bring the HPF up to 13 Hz, but with four they should reach around 110 dB in room at 10 Hz, and over 125 dB at 20 Hz (I forgot to model this and add to the PDF).

The enclosure is plywood intense, 3 sheets per cabinet. I plan to build two, one for the Mal-X and one with either a Dayton 18" or SI 18" driver.

A cut sheet and drawings of the enclosure are attached. The design was developed on diyAudio for me by users Bjorno and tb46 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/198056-th-t-tqwp.html).



SI T-TQWT Design - 600 W max power for full extension.pdf 869k .pdf file
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post #22 of 23 Old 05-19-2013, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Looney, thanks for the quick answers. So it looks like the best route will be to go with two DSP amps or a miniDSP (2x4) with two non-DSP amps. I'll start the research/shopping.

NWCgrad, thanks for all the info. That's gonna be a very cool build. You're right about the "plywood intense" part. I wouldn't say the build would be beyond my skills, but probably beyond my intended level of effort. tongue.gif

Thanks, guys.
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post #23 of 23 Old 05-19-2013, 08:59 AM
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I hear you, lot of wood involved in the build. Once I get started will make a thread on AVS. I need to learn REW so I can measure and post actual versus modelled performance.

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