TC Sounds LMS5400 18" VS Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" Reference - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 184 Old 03-14-2013, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

A perfect pairing for the XXX's is to get the d4 version of them and run one channel off the 14k clone to a pair. One could optimally power FOUR XXX18's with a single 14k clone.


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post #92 of 184 Old 03-14-2013, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Add in a couple of 14k clones to the LMS package for a total of $5700. If you factor in the cost of cabinets the systems probably end up costing the same.

Yup, and I have 16 to place around the room vs the 4 lms. Plus, I wouldn't buy a clone, and lots wouldn't. Plenty of people would, and that's great for them, I just wouldn't. I need to be able to walk the amp into a store and say "gimmie a new one!" Ironically, my Denon 4520 Shat the bed last night and I did just that with it. Anyway. I know what ya mean.
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post #93 of 184 Old 03-14-2013, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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So for my case study:
-I have Inuke 6000 measured to put out 1800 watts into 4ohms x 2 and 1100 watts into 8 ohms x2.
-Right now I am driving a single dayton per channel so each driver has the potential to get 1800 watts. I know from personal experience that they can't handle that at least down in the 20hz region as the easily bottom out. So lets say they can handle 900 watts in the lower region which might even be too much.
-For my tastes this is not providing enough output and feel that I am pushing the drivers to the limit where distortion has become an issue.
-So adding 2 additional drivers with the same amp now running 2 drivers at 8 ohms per channel at 550 watts should give me a gain of maybe 4 or 5 db and significantly lest THD since drivers should only be working half as hard?
-$600 cost for drivers and supplies for second cabinet.
Second case study:
-Same amp now with 2 UXL at 4 ohms per channel easily handling the 1800 watts per driver.
-I expect that the distortion levels would likely be better than the first case study since the drivers would not be getting pushed to the absolute limit but have no measurement data to compare.
-Since I am using all the power I have I should expect roughly double the power to the drivers and could expect 6 db gain?
-$1000 cost for drivers using same cabinets.

So for me I wonder which scenario would provide the cleanest bass and most output?
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post #94 of 184 Old 03-14-2013, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

So for my case study:
-I have Inuke 6000 measured to put out 1800 watts into 4ohms x 2 and 1100 watts into 8 ohms x2.
-Right now I am driving a single dayton per channel so each driver has the potential to get 1800 watts. I know from personal experience that they can't handle that at least down in the 20hz region as the easily bottom out. So lets say they can handle 900 watts in the lower region which might even be too much.
-For my tastes this is not providing enough output and feel that I am pushing the drivers to the limit where distortion has become an issue.
-So adding 2 additional drivers with the same amp now running 2 drivers at 8 ohms per channel at 550 watts should give me a gain of maybe 4 or 5 db and significantly lest THD since drivers should only be working half as hard?
-$600 cost for drivers and supplies for second cabinet.
Second case study:
-Same amp now with 2 UXL at 4 ohms per channel easily handling the 1800 watts per driver.
-I expect that the distortion levels would likely be better than the first case study since the drivers would not be getting pushed to the absolute limit but have no measurement data to compare.
-Since I am using all the power I have I should expect roughly double the power to the drivers and could expect 6 db gain?
-$1000 cost for drivers using same cabinets.

So for me I wonder which scenario would provide the cleanest bass and most output?

Assuming a 4cuft box and using data from Data-Bass I got this:

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My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #95 of 184 Old 03-14-2013, 03:27 PM
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@ Ricci

Thanks for taking your time. Much appreciated. Ill take a time out to think it over smile.gif

Dan
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post #96 of 184 Old 03-14-2013, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Yup, and I have 16 to place around the room vs the 4 lms.
To some that's an advantage to some not even a possibility.

I'll give you that 16 18in drivers wins in the looks department. lol Bottom line is that you cant go wrong with either system.
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post #97 of 184 Old 03-14-2013, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Bottom line is that you cant go wrong with either system.

Damn right and I hope more people would get that.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #98 of 184 Old 03-14-2013, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

To some that's an advantage to some not even a possibility.

I'll give you that 16 18in drivers wins in the looks department. lol Bottom line is that you cant go wrong with either system.

Agreed, anyone would be happy with either, I think
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post #99 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

Thanks for the input. Your setup looks great. I agree that 4 drivers should be enough I just want to be sure. How many cubes and what size are those boxes?

Thanks...cabs are about 7 cubes apiece. 39.5" tall, 18" deep, 22" wide.


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post #100 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Haha, James you crack me up!! biggrin.gif You used to say the same thing when you had a single Captivator and then you switched to 4 18"s!!!

I think you also have the virus (although maybe a weaker strain) that has spread to many here but at least you have the good sense to fight it!! smile.gif

I'm kidding, but I do think in my room there are more advantages to going sub crazy than just output. I am loving how the bass sounds in my room with 4 sub locations. I couldn't localize the bass before from my seated position but now it sounds so much smoother and like the bass is everywhere. It's especially cool if I'm doing a workout and wandering around the room in between sets. Before the bass would sound different as I moved and would get much louder if I got close to one of the subs. Now the bass sounds the same everywhere I move in the room and I can walk right up to a sub and I can't tell the bass is coming from it.

BTW, I am NOT saying that you need 4 locations in your room, my room benefits from it but yours may not. Also I am jealous of your inert cabinets my singles are anything but.

I've told you before, but I love how your DIY dual opposed subs look, great job man. I know first hand how dual opposed Dayton's sound, so I know you are happy with their sound. Basically you have more than 2 Submersives with sound quality that is just as good - nice. smile.gif Such a perfect fit up front too.

thanks thanks thanks carp...your own room is superb and is turning into some kind of monster...I think you'll appreciate the reference. smile.gif

Basically, I hear you. Re my (4) 18's: remember that my build was really about the future space they were going into (and I KNEW that future space would never allow me to pull this off, time/$- wise so I felt compelled to do it NOW, lol wink.gif ). The Cap prolly could have tore my house apart, lol. Still LOVE that sub, by the way, but when I figure I could build TWO quads for less than single passive Cap, that was pretty much it for me.

And I concur with you 100% re the advantages of multiples- definitely can work magic in many rooms.

I'm currently considering a house with a positively MONSTROUS finished basement...perhaps we'll see if the current pair are "sufficient" sooner than later.


James

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post #101 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

OH MY WORD, JAMES!!!!

Do I need to go into my quad 18" build thread, post 112 on page 4, where you mention, and I quote, "These "Super Bass" threads are a blast, but I always come back to wondering who the hell listens at these levels, and for those that do, what does the balance/level of the rest of the spectrum sound like when you have 130+db bass?"

AND NOW, you have quad 18's, and you just said "I have yet to hear a bad noise out of them at ~130db levels. Believe it."

AND NOW you mention you may very well have space to add more!!!!


DUDE!!!! LOL biggrin.gif

Ha ha, thing is I'm rarely past -10dbs on my dial with either sub about +5 as audyssey just doens't seem to want to play nice with this current config...which I'll be fixing soon. wink.gif

I'm certain one of these would be more than I need in my current scenario/listening habits but what can I say, I love symmetry and future-thinking. biggrin.gif

James

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post #102 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Does this all mean that my 16 Daytons aren't going to have enough outout biggrin.gif


Literally. LMFAO.

Well we all know it's not a good HT subwoofer so why would you start with them in the first place?

Don't answer that.

I'd grab the popcorn for this one but I'm at work.

James

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post #103 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Does this all mean that my 16 Daytons aren't going to have enough outout biggrin.gif
Probably not...

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
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post #104 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 06:55 AM
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So guys, I asked this earlier and it seemed to get lost somewhere.

But is it possible that the OP is clipping his BFD?

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post #105 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

thanks thanks thanks carp...your own room is superb and is turning into some kind of monster...I think you'll appreciate the reference. smile.gif

Basically, I hear you. Re my (4) 18's: remember that my build was really about the future space they were going into (and I KNEW that future space would never allow me to pull this off, time/$- wise so I felt compelled to do it NOW, lol wink.gif ). The Cap prolly could have tore my house apart, lol. Still LOVE that sub, by the way, but when I figure I could build TWO quads for less than single passive Cap, that was pretty much it for me.

And I concur with you 100% re the advantages of multiples- definitely can work magic in many rooms.

I'm currently considering a house with a positively MONSTROUS finished basement...perhaps we'll see if the current pair are "sufficient" sooner than later.


James

That's right, I forgot you were moving.
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post #106 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 08:51 AM
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I think the comments about the HO being less than ideal for HT were more pointed at 15-20hz performance. No one is denying this is a great sub for the price, but 20hz and lower is where the UXL really pulls away.

For example, two HO's at full power outdoors can deliver 108.5db at 20hz. That's probably better than 90% of HT community, however:

A single Rythmik FV15HP (single 15" driver) can do 108.2db at 20hz.

A single PB-13 Ulta (single 13.5" driver) can do 110.6db at 20hz

The gap gets even further apart at 15hz, with two HO being able to produce 102.6db. It would take 3 full power HO's to match a single FV15HP or PB-13 Ultra at this point.

That's not saying the Dayton's can't produce enough DB at those frequencies, but trying to bridge that 15-20hz gap between multiples of the Dayton and the UXL is a little more dramatic than people might think...
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post #107 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

I think the comments about the HO being less than ideal for HT were more pointed at 15-20hz performance. No one is denying this is a great sub for the price, but 20hz and lower is where the UXL really pulls away.

For example, two HO's at full power outdoors can deliver 108.5db at 20hz. That's probably better than 90% of HT community, however:

A single Rythmik FV15HP (single 15" driver) can do 108.2db at 20hz.

A single PB-13 Ulta (single 13.5" driver) can do 110.6db at 20hz

The gap gets even further apart at 15hz, with two HO being able to produce 102.6db. It would take 3 full power HO's to match a single FV15HP or PB-13 Ultra at this point.

That's not saying the Dayton's can't produce enough DB at those frequencies, but trying to bridge that 15-20hz gap between multiples of the Dayton and the UXL is a little more dramatic than people might think...

How does this change in room and with using a minidsp? I've heard dual Ultras and to me the dual Dayton's low end (using the minidsp) was MUCH more impressive.
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post #108 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

How does this change in room and with using a minidsp? I've heard dual Ultras and to me the dual Dayton's low end (using the minidsp) was MUCH more impressive.

I have no idea biggrin.gif

All I wanted to do is share unbiased factual information from DB.com.
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post #109 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

I think the comments about the HO being less than ideal for HT were more pointed at 15-20hz performance. No one is denying this is a great sub for the price, but 20hz and lower is where the UXL really pulls away.

For example, two HO's at full power outdoors can deliver 108.5db at 20hz. That's probably better than 90% of HT community, however:

A single Rythmik FV15HP (single 15" driver) can do 108.2db at 20hz.

A single PB-13 Ulta (single 13.5" driver) can do 110.6db at 20hz

The gap gets even further apart at 15hz, with two HO being able to produce 102.6db. It would take 3 full power HO's to match a single FV15HP or PB-13 Ultra at this point.

That's not saying the Dayton's can't produce enough DB at those frequencies, but trying to bridge that 15-20hz gap between multiples of the Dayton and the UXL is a little more dramatic than people might think...

Isn't that simply because of the added output around the tuning frequency of those ported subs? Compare 2 of the Daytons properly powered vs those subs and see what happens at frequencies lower than 15.
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post #110 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 09:42 AM
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"Doubled the drivers
Doubled the amplifier power
Doubled the enclosure volume"

ricci, that is right, but there is a major caveat that is missed in this analysis and is what bosso had backwards.

since both the uxl and the dayton have approximately the same sensitivity, for the uxl to get to a 6db higher measured output, it is consuming 4x the power.

so just to put some fictional numbers on it, let's say 2000 watts gets the dayton to max out and 8000 gets the uxl to max out 6db higher.

if you then take the dayton and "double drivers-double power-double enclosure volume" in order to get +6db and match the uxl, you will still only be consuming 4000 watts, which is 1/2 as many as the uxl for the same spl.

so where the 2 daytons and 1 uxl are producing the same spl, the dayton system will be consuming 1/2 the power.
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post #111 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 09:53 AM
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John,

That was all covered in my post too.
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post #112 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

I think the comments about the HO being less than ideal for HT were more pointed at 15-20hz performance. No one is denying this is a great sub for the price, but 20hz and lower is where the UXL really pulls away.

For example, two HO's at full power outdoors can deliver 108.5db at 20hz. That's probably better than 90% of HT community, however:

A single Rythmik FV15HP (single 15" driver) can do 108.2db at 20hz.

A single PB-13 Ulta (single 13.5" driver) can do 110.6db at 20hz

The gap gets even further apart at 15hz, with two HO being able to produce 102.6db. It would take 3 full power HO's to match a single FV15HP or PB-13 Ultra at this point.

That's not saying the Dayton's can't produce enough DB at those frequencies, but trying to bridge that 15-20hz gap between multiples of the Dayton and the UXL is a little more dramatic than people might think...

You're not looking at the whole picture here. The FV15HP and PB-13 Ultra both have more distortion at lower frequencies than the Dayton does. The PB-13 Ultra's distortion charts look pretty bad actually, way worse than the Dayton does. While these subs may have higher spl numbers, it would sound significantly worse than the Dayton at it's max spl.

Your phrase "great sub for the price" is also a bit revealing. If the Dayton is only considered "great for the price" then what does that make the ID subs you listed? Wouldn't those subs be complete garbage for the prices they are?

I think in the end, the cost to reach 'X' spl levels with 'y' amount of distortion would be identical either route you take. You may need more Daytons to equal the UXL-18's, but you'd need more power for the UXL-18's. You will need more space for the Daytons, but you'd have the ability to even out room response better.

If the UXL-18 was on sale for $250, then this wouldn't even be a debate. But both are priced according to the performance they can provide. Neither should be considered cheap in either performance or cost, as $250 is more than some people make in a week.
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post #113 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post

@ Bosso

Even if the voltages is not stated for the UXL, it obviously takes more (I’m guessing double) power for the single UXL than for dual Daytons to reach equal SPL. So, if anything it takes “double the amplification” with a single UXL compared to dual Daytons. No? In the CEA test at 20Hz and below, the THD limited results are less than 6db difference, not more than 6db. Does that not add up to dual Daytons having a tiny advantage in SPL, a large advantage in total power consumption and an even larger advantage in power per driver?
How do you get from there to stating that it takes another two Daytons (4 total) to equal the UXL. Going by the numbers and the actual information available it seems reasonable to conclude that 2:1 is a fair comparison. That is not to say that dual Daytons are a definite winner or that I would prefer multiple Daytons over half the UXLs as there are many other considerations.

Dan

Hi Dan,

You nailed it, and this is what's missing from these discussions; "there are many other considerations...".

Here's the first problem that's being skimmed over; I'm not aware of a variable voltage amplifier that somehow knows how to deliver safe voltage to a driver that can only handle 500W at 10 Hz but is amp limited with 12,000W at 80 Hz, and that's because it simply doesn't exist.

If a driver in a box gives optimal performance with 500W, then 500W is all you can give it. That means throw the CEA numbers for every result above 10 Hz out the window and recalculate them with 500W.

There are only 2 alternatives and they both require radically changing the FR of the system as levels increase. Maybe Seaton can chime in since we had this conversation last year. Employing a sophisticated limiter circuit like he has on the SM, and which is no trivial matter, allows you to utilize the top end while limiting the low end to safe operation overall. But, that means a radically changing FR (and thus, sonic signature) while playing a soundtrack with 30dB peak to average 3-120 Hz content. this, of course, is not an option for DIYers.

The more practical (and predictable results) method is to shrink the box, up the power and configure selectable curves, which I've been trying to say in every way the English language affords for a decade.

The bottom line is that you can completely disregard Josh's CEA results since they were arrived at with a 12,000W amplifier that was adjusted down to 30 volts at 10 Hz and ramped up to 300 volts at 80 Hz (see Josh's NOTE below). No system mentioned thus far in this thread has that capability with playback of actual source.

Another, and the most obvious, is that 16 Daytons requires 64 cubes of box while 4 LMS requires 14 cubes. If someone is suggesting that multiple placement of 16 boxes is a viable option, I'd like to see it. The end result is more likely that there are still only 4 placements of stacked boxes. I would also like to see some data proving the assumption everyone here is under that multiple placement means better FR. So far I've seen zero A/B comparison data.

Will any of the 16xDayton systems in this forum equal notnight's 8xLMS system? Yeah, I can't believe I'm even having to consider it. not has provided tons of data of the results of his system, so I know what it's capable of. The Dayton users? If there is any data of the results, please point me to it so that I can become as convinced as everyone else in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

After running many sims myself on what I have had and comparing them to what I get in room the one thing the sims don't account for is the rolloff of each driver or how each driver stays more linear down low. In Winisd all my 8x18 systems had more displacement and more spl according to Winisd at 10hz. This was not the case in my room at the seats!

Thank you. It matters coming from someone who has actually used a dozen systems in the same room with actual soundtrack content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Move from single driver in a cabinet to a pair of identical cabinets and drivers and you pick up 3dB of output with the same input power as before. (Total system sensitivity and efficiency increased) However note that at the same time that the individual power seen by the original driver decreases to 50% and driver excursion drops by about 30%, so if the driver was moving about 20mm p2p before 50% power input will mean it is now only moving about 14mm p2p but with the second driver now utilizing the other 50% of the signal and also moving 14mm p2p the total displacement has increased to effectively that of a single driver now moving 28mm p2p and the result is about 3dB more system output. Doubling the power of the original signal will result in each driver now seeing 100% of the power that the original lone driver was seeing and both driver will now be at 20mm p2p and the SPL will be 6dB greater than the single driver alone. However to get to that point you have...

Doubled the drivers
Doubled the amplifier power
Doubled the enclosure volume

Now to compare the RS18 to the LMS using the measurements.

The LMS via CEA2010 produces about 6 dB more output than the Dayton RS18 10-20Hz. I did not record the actual voltages used but judging from the levels produced during the 130volt long term sweep it is safe to say that they are between 100-130volts over 10-20Hz. That corresponds to roughly 2-4,000watts input into a nominal 4 ohm load. Also the levels reached during the long term sweeps are fairly comparable over the 10-20Hz octave.

The Dayton RS18 does not handle power nearly as well which is not surprising. It has entered severe compression during the 73 volt sweep, partly due to the motor being out of force at the extremes of excursion and the coil probably being close to leaving the gap by that point. However if we look at the 41 volt sweep the driver is still behaving well. Also between 10-20Hz via CEA-2010 the input voltages required are similar and between about 40-45v. Into a nominal 4 ohm load this corresponds to about 400-500w.
we can see that since each Dayton only requires 500w for 90% of it's output 10-20Hz all you need add is another 500w. I don't see that as a requirement for another amp these days with cheap kilowatts everywhere. Meanwhile the LMS is already eating thousands of watts to produce its maximum output peaks in that octave. You can get most of what 4 Dayton's have to offer in the low bass with the power used for one LMS so there is no reason that the amp cost would not be exactly the same. (Note: That is in the low bass only and in the upper bass where excursion isn't the limiting factor the Dayton can take many hundreds volts short term just like most other drivers. If you want the crazy upper bass output numbers seen in the CEA-2010 testing of the drivers you will need insane amounts of power that really are impractical from a cost and driver safety standpoint.)

Don't forget that the Dayton's will require multiple times more real estate and enclosure volume than the single LMS driver and the enclosure costs will be commensurately higher too eating into some of the savings and taking more time to build as well. As always nothing is free.

^^THIS^^

Thanks, Josh. One correction; "Bosso is right that you have to double the power when you add another RS18 otherwise you will not get the full 6dB increase. However..." There is no "however". For the sake of this discussion, you have to stick to the facts as you stated in the first sentence. Mentioning various amplifier scenarios only muddies the water, especially when you consider the NOTE section of your post.

Also, when you go from one RS18 to two you have one choice; to go from 4 ohms bridged to 4 ohms per channel (or 8 ohms bridged, which is the same thing). You lose 1-3dB of amplifier, depending on the amp and there's no way around that.

Your NOTE section is the most important thing here and is completely glossed over in these discussions of systems comparisons-on-paper. A 4xLMS system can easily handle the voltage and the 8x Dayton system cannot, which changes the numbers dramatically in the real world DIY system.

96dB at 2M GP RMS at 10 Hz with 36% THD is an astounding achievement that gets tossed aside as though it's easily bested (because "there will be less distortion, thermal compression, smoother response from 2 subs...", etc.) by buying a pair of $250 drivers, while completely ignoring the rest of the picture.

The more power required for the LMS to achieve that 10 Hz stat, the better. Dunno why no one seems to grasp that.
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post #114 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 10:39 AM
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I wish I could afford to buy four LMS-U's. frown.gif

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post #115 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 10:50 AM
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I wish I could afford to buy four LMS-U's. frown.gif

Me too Scott, but then I would be wishing I could afford 8!!
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post #116 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 10:51 AM
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Ha! Really. I guess I should have said, "I wish I could afford at least four LMS-U's." biggrin.gif

But seriously, I make so little that even four is a major stretch for me. redface.gif

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I wish I could afford to buy four LMS-U's. frown.gif
And a sweet SpeakerPower Amp to power them with.biggrin.gif
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post #118 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 10:56 AM
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Damnit! Yes, of course! tongue.gif

Whew.... all that.... there goes 3/4 of my annual income. frown.giffrown.giffrown.gif Looks like Ramen noodles for dinner! Again and again and again and again.....


God I hope I get this new job at *******. redface.gif

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post #119 of 184 Old 03-15-2013, 11:33 AM
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"Doubled the drivers
Doubled the amplifier power
Doubled the enclosure volume"

ricci, that is right, but there is a major caveat that is missed in this analysis and is what bosso had backwards.

since both the uxl and the dayton have approximately the same sensitivity, for the uxl to get to a 6db higher measured output, it is consuming 4x the power.

so just to put some fictional numbers on it, let's say 2000 watts gets the dayton to max out and 8000 gets the uxl to max out 6db higher.

if you then take the dayton and "double drivers-double power-double enclosure volume" in order to get +6db and match the uxl, you will still only be consuming 4000 watts, which is 1/2 as many as the uxl for the same spl.

so where the 2 daytons and 1 uxl are producing the same spl, the dayton system will be consuming 1/2 the power.

You're stuck on an irrelevant point.

No one has said "using the same amplifier for both drivers" because you can't do that without damaging the RS18, so there is no caveat. The first part of your post in " " is correct. Leave it there and your good.

Now, looking at your side issue, how do you wire the dual RS18s to be "consuming 4000W" in your example?
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Damnit! Yes, of course! tongue.gif

Whew.... all that.... there goes 3/4 of my annual income. frown.giffrown.giffrown.gif Looks like Ramen noodles for dinner! Again and again and again and again.....


God I hope I get this new job at *******. redface.gif

Good luck man, but if you get the job make sure you maintain your priorities by spending the same % of income on gear!! biggrin.gif
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