TC Sounds LMS5400 18" VS Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" Reference - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 04:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello again -
I realize this could be fairly subjective but late night curiosity got the best of me. What are your thoughts about how clean or accurate they sounded. Price aside has anyone heard both and said wow the LMS sounds way better or Dayton sounds way better? What are your impressions after listening to both? What about other drivers that sounded better or worse?
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post #2 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 09:13 AM
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I have not heard anything better than the LMS to-date.
However, I have heard subs that are more efficient/louder up top.

All I know is that it is better than the Mal's and SDX's , for a similar (smallish) sealed box volume.
In an IB the Mal's and RE-18's would probably win (at least in SPL).

The only problem is their price and how to power them with enough watts cheaply, without being a CEO of google.
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post #3 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 09:57 AM
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I have owned the LMS ultra and have the Dayton's right now but did not have them at the same time to compare. I did have some Maelstrom-X 18's at the same time as both though and the LMS Ultra's were cleaner sounding and overall better. I also compared the Mael-X 18's to the Dayton RS18 and the main advantage was the Mael-X 18 could take a lot more power and play louder, the Daytons had a small edge in upper bass and might be a bit better musical sub. Overall I preferred the Mael-X to the Dayton but one is available to buy and the other is not.

If I only had $1,000 to spend on drivers alone then 4 Dayton RS18's compared to a single LMS ultra is a no brainer. If money is not a concern and you just want the best quality bass than the LMS Ultra is the choice 10 times out of 10 over the Daytons. Like Bassthathz mentions the set-up that probably trumps them both is the RE XXX 18's in an IB if your mains are capable enough to about 50hz.

The Dayton Reference 18's are excellent subs for there price but to try and compare it to a sub that costs 4 times as much, and is worth it, is not a fair comparison at all.

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post #4 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

If I only had $1,000 to spend on drivers alone then 4 Dayton RS18's compared to a single LMS ultra is a no brainer. If money is not a concern and you just want the best quality bass than the LMS Ultra is the choice 10 times out of 10 over the Daytons.
The Dayton Reference 18's are excellent subs for there price but to try and compare it to a sub that costs 4 times as much, and is worth it, is not a fair comparison at all.

This is summed up pretty well.

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post #5 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the great responses. I understand its not exactly a fair comparison. When both are played at more moderate levels would you say there is as much of a difference between the 2?
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post #6 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 01:56 PM
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I have not personally compared the Dayton RS18 to a LMS Ultra but when I had the pair of LMS-U's I had not had a better sounding sub system. I like the Daytons but when I hear a friends quad LMS Ultra's there is just a difference that's hard to explain but easy to hear. I guess one way to describe the LMS ultra is that it sounds cleaner, the bass is just more precise and doesn't really call attention to it-self until it is called upon, then it attacks.

I personally think the Achilles heal for the LMS Ultra is the distortion is so low that it doesn't sound as loud as other subs, more distortion sounds like more sound. With low distortion systems which include speakers people tend to want to turn up the volume, with other systems you tend to turn down the volume when distortion sets in as it can be fatiguing and just sound horrible. This is why most LMS Ultra builds may start out with a pair but eventually turn into multiples, Healthnut (8) , Notnyt (8), Warpdr (6), RobertCharles (4) with VMPS, Edogg (4) and the list goes on. After hearing edogg's system when he had a pair to the quads I now wish I would have added another pair to my LMS-U's as it made a big difference.

Personally I really wish I had the opportunity to hear JapanDave's 4 soon to be 8 RE XXX 18's IB or Ricci's 8 XXX 18 sealed set-up's. I have a feeling that must be were bass nirvana lives since Ricci had multiple LMS Ultra's he sold awhile back and JapanDave started out with the LMS Ultra but now has the XXX's. If only I could do a IB my-self I would be all over the XXX, might have to make up some mains that cover the mid-bass better and try the sealed XXX route.

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post #7 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 02:11 PM
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I wish I had the money to get several LMS-U's. redface.gif For as much money that I have spent on my twelve 18's I might have got three LMS-U's. Hmm....

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post #8 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 02:23 PM
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For movies your system is going to hit sooooooooooo much harder though Scott!

Edogg's quads are insanely good but even he will admit that I got more SPL and punch and I don't even have 12 18's like you do. I have a mix of 8 12's, 8 10's and right now 6 18's, all opposed sealed. I really like my system which is one of the reasons I have not changed it yet, well that and I just don't have time.

I have 4 of those SI 18's you have, only built a box for 2 so far. With 12 of those there is no way you will regret it once there up and running, you are likely to get a concussion with all that bass, your so lucky tongue.gif

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post #9 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 03:40 PM
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Thanks! Really cause I'm constantly going back and forth wondering if even this will be enough. redface.gif

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post #10 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Edogg's quads are insanely good but even he will admit that I got more SPL and punch and I don't even have 12 18's like you do. I have a mix of 8 12's, 8 10's and right now 6 18's, all opposed sealed. I really like my system which is one of the reasons I have not changed it yet, well that and I just don't have time.
Agreed bro! I think my system might sound a bit cleaner, but yours definitely has got me beat on output. Plus I LOVE the tactile feeling you get in your 2nd floor loft. cool.gif
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post #11 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 06:25 PM
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Having every sub that has been said on this thread, for 1K, I'd take 2 UXL's over anything sold ATM. There is something to be said for quality drivers vs quantity. biggrin.gif

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post #12 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

For movies your system is going to hit sooooooooooo much harder though Scott!

Edogg's quads are insanely good but even he will admit that I got more SPL and punch and I don't even have 12 18's like you do. I have a mix of 8 12's, 8 10's and right now 6 18's, all opposed sealed. I really like my system which is one of the reasons I have not changed it yet, well that and I just don't have time.

I have 4 of those SI 18's you have, only built a box for 2 so far. With 12 of those there is no way you will regret it once there up and running, you are likely to get a concussion with all that bass, your so lucky tongue.gif

There is something to be said for the sheer brute force method! IMO it's for sure the most fun way to get it done! I'm hoping with my G-Horns, the 21's and 18's will finally give me enough SPL to blow off some panties!! cool.gif

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post #13 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 06:41 PM
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post #14 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 06:56 PM
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Having every sub that has been said on this thread, for 1K, I'd take 2 UXL's over anything sold ATM. There is something to be said for quality drivers vs quantity. biggrin.gif
Curious bro, if you take price out of the equation, would you still take the ULX over the LMS??
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post #15 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 07:25 PM
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Smooth wink.giftongue.gif

What sub is that and what size box?? Looks huge to me eek.gif

....I'm new to the DIY home theater sub realm though biggrin.gif

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post #16 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 07:26 PM
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Curious bro, if you take price out of the equation, would you still take the ULX over the LMS??

Probably not if they were the same price. For me in Canada, the LMS was a tough pill to swallow at almost $1250 each after shipping, taxes etc. I can get 3 UXL's for that price and the 1-UXL is pretty much equal to 1-LMS in most areas but not under 20hz and even then it's a slim win. I loved my LMS's but If I can support a local guy building awesome drivers, it's pretty tough for me to even look anywhere else (though I do and buy stuff all the time lol)
I don't have to pay for shipping, The drivers look awesome and Mark is a great guy to deal with plus he gives me beer when I go over there! lol

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post #17 of 184 Old 03-08-2013, 08:24 PM
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Beer?!!! Oh heck screw the LMS, I'm coming for some UXL's and brewskis!!!! biggrin.gif
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post #18 of 184 Old 03-09-2013, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Are the UXL's available any more? Is Innovative sound technologies who makes them?
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post #19 of 184 Old 03-09-2013, 08:22 AM
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There is something to be said for quality drivers vs quantity. biggrin.gif

+1


OTOH, there's certainly something to be said about quantity over quality tongue.gif


OTOOH, there's something to be said for Not's approach cool.gif

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post #20 of 184 Old 03-09-2013, 08:57 AM
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When you get into multiples, the quality vs quantity difference does get smaller as you get more subs. Of course, I would love to have multiple sealed LMS drivers, but double or triple the amount of Daytons or SI drivers and the sound quality does get closer, since the drivers will be hardly moving. Plus multiple 18's do look nice and imposing. smile.gif
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post #21 of 184 Old 03-09-2013, 10:02 AM
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When you get into multiples, the quality vs quantity difference does get smaller as you get more subs. Of course, I would love to have multiple sealed LMS drivers, but double or triple the amount of Daytons or SI drivers and the sound quality does get closer, since the drivers will be hardly moving. Plus multiple 18's do look nice and imposing. smile.gif

Very true. Not that there is anything wrong with having multiple cheaper drivers, in fact as you say, it can work out better in some situations. In my case however, that is not the approach I've ever taken. I will always use better quality drivers for anything I build with but again, that's just me.

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post #22 of 184 Old 03-10-2013, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been looking at the UXL-18 drivers. I see they are out of stock but specs look pretty good for the price. My main complaint with the dayton's is that they don't handle enough power down low and seem to distort a little more than I would like. I really only have room for 4 18" drivers total so I am looking for what makes the most sense per dollar, performance, and sound quality.
How do the UXL-18's compare to the dayton's and the LMS's as far as sound quality is concerned?
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post #23 of 184 Old 03-10-2013, 07:37 PM
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I have been looking at the UXL-18 drivers. I see they are out of stock but specs look pretty good for the price. My main complaint with the dayton's is that they don't handle enough power down low and seem to distort a little more than I would like. I really only have room for 4 18" drivers total so I am looking for what makes the most sense per dollar, performance, and sound quality.
How do the UXL-18's compare to the dayton's and the LMS's as far as sound quality is concerned?

They are close to on par with the LMS but with slightly higher distortion and a clear cut above the Daytons, not even in the same class. They will be back in stock fairly soon. SQ is also subjective on what design you have stuck the drivers in. A 4-5 CF sealed design for the UXL is perfect and sound great. Although it may hive slightly higher measured distortion, thats not to say is clearly audible if at all.

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post #24 of 184 Old 03-10-2013, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Nice to know. Sounds more like more what I am looking for. I can actually use all the power of the inuke 6000 and hope to tighten the sound up a bit. Just emailed them and got a reply back saying 8 more weeks. They are taking pre-orders. I am not sure what the hell is wrong with all these speaker suppliers that are out of stock. The only drivers I can get my hands on are from PE and are the LMS 18 not the 15 and the Daytons. Is there a world wide speaker shortage or are they all just waiting for them to get off the slow boat from overseas? Ugh...
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post #25 of 184 Old 03-10-2013, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Another nice thing is that the cutout for the boxes looks like it is almost identical to the dayton 18's I already have so I might be able to just swap drivers into my current boxes. Might just have to put new mounting holes at the worst. Good news.
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post #26 of 184 Old 03-11-2013, 09:46 AM
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The data-bass measurements of the UXL-18 compared to the Dayton 18" do show it to have more output overall. But, wouldn't two Dayton's provide the same level of output, possible more, and allow for better in room response? N8, it almost seems as though you don't like the Dayton because it's so cheap. (Cheap is a relative word here. And this isn't an attack towards you N8, just a bit curious.)

Distortion is directly related to how close you're getting to the driver's limits. (Right?) While a $500 driver may be able to handle 1000 watts with less distortion than a $250 driver, wouldn't two of the $250 drivers have improved distortion with the same 1000 watts? That should be the case. However, I fully understand that it's hard to run a driver at half potential.

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The data-bass measurements of the UXL-18 compared to the Dayton 18" do show it to have more output overall. But, wouldn't two Dayton's provide the same level of output, possible more, and allow for better in room response? N8, it almost seems as though you don't like the Dayton because it's so cheap. (Cheap is a relative word here. And this isn't an attack towards you N8, just a bit curious.)

Distortion is directly related to how close you're getting to the driver's limits. (Right?) While a $500 driver may be able to handle 1000 watts with less distortion than a $250 driver, wouldn't two of the $250 drivers have improved distortion with the same 1000 watts? That should be the case. However, I fully understand that it's hard to run a driver at half potential.

Yup. And the Daytons are low distortion already. 4 Daytons producing the equivalent output of one LMS-Ultra would have a lot less distortion. And help mitigate room modes. But would require more wiring, more/bigger boxes, more subwoofers.
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post #28 of 184 Old 03-11-2013, 01:11 PM
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But would require more wiring, more/bigger boxes, more subwoofers.

Thats another thing that often gets overlooked when these comparisons pop up. Sometimes people are space limited and have to maximize the space that is available.
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post #29 of 184 Old 03-11-2013, 01:20 PM
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Thats another thing that often gets overlooked when these comparisons pop up. Sometimes people are space limited and have to maximize the space that is available.

I don't think this is a factor in a discussion purely about sound quality. Though it's a very valid point in a discussion about ease and functionality.

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post #30 of 184 Old 03-11-2013, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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My problem with the dayton's is that I am not going to make room for 8 of them or even 6 of them and am a little worried that 4 of them won't get the job done. And honestly because of how hard I am pushing them they don't sound all that great. I am fairly certain I will not be buying any LMS's any time soon, but a 500$ driver that is supposed to have better distortion that can handle more power than the dayton's to start with might make sense. Since I can only put around a 1000W real power through the dayton's or maybe less before they bottom out just switching out the 2 drivers I have now with the UXL's with net me around 2.5 to 3 db using the power I currently have available on the inuke 6000. As I model out further using 4 drivers that gain remains constant. Now if I went with 4 dayton's and loaded amp with 8 ohms per channel each driver gets about 600 watts per driver which keeps everything safe I would be fully utilizing the power I have and the drivers should be in a much better place as far as distortion is concerned. The other route would be picking up a second inuke 6000 and 4 uxl drivers and giving each one 1800 watts which all together would get me 3 to 4 dbs over the daytons (I was expecting more did I do something wrong?). So assuming I got everything right and the uxl drivers do actually become available without defects during this production run the cost for 3-4 db over the 4 daytons would be about $1500 for 3 to 4 db gain over all. So the real questions is what would likely have less distortion and sound better?
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