Making my dad a surprise sub/present and could use some input. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 03-08-2013, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok so here's a little bit of the back story, I recently got a new job and relocated back to Seattle. We've had renters in our house for the last year and a half while we lived in Portland and won't be moving back to our house till June/July-ish. So in the interim we are staying at my parent's house. As a bit of a thank you for letting us stay at their place I'm going to build my dad a new sub. When they moved into the house it was all Bose cubes and we finally ended up building some small towers and a matching center using some Dayton RS100-8's which for their use are fantastic and a huge upgrade over the Bose. They are still using the bass cube thing and it absolutely blows. The space is small probably 10'D x 16'W and open to the kitchen, living room, etc but they sit very close and don't ever listen very loud.

I was wanting to build a fairly small-ish 10" sub, most likely ported, to replace the cruddy little bass module. There will be no ability to EQ so I was thinking ported to be able to get the extension down to the low 20's or so. My own system will probably be quad 18's and EQ'd but that'll be a different thread biggrin.gif

Here's what I was thinking for the sub:

Dayton RSS265HF-4: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-460
Bash 300w Plate amp: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-750
Plus misc box materials.

I was wanting to have the sub and possibly the port firing down and building a pedestal for it to sit on ala some of the old SVS or HSU offerings. The port could face the rear also, just depends on how long it would need to be. I have probably 14-18" depth but probably 1-1/2' or so of width and decent height available as well. There's lots of grandkids running around so keeping the driver facing down and out of harms way as well as being sturdy (IE not tippable) and the port out of the way for putting things/toys/food/etc into it is ideal hence my thought for the sub facing down as well as the port.

So here's where I need some help. I'm not a WinISD or similar expert and so many of you are, I could use some help in designing the proper box. That and I was hoping for some input on the driver/amp combo. I was hoping to stay around $250 or below and note that QUALITY is much preferred over QUANTITY of Bass as again, my parents don't listen loud. 95% of the use will be TV/HT and they are in their mid 60's so they don't listen loud. I'm really going for a quality fill from 80hz below, nothing crazy.

I will be building at the same time a sub for my brother in law but can start a new thread for that if necessary. We'll have the same budget restrictions but the goal will be quality SPL for that one. If one design can fit both parameters with the only difference being the gain applied at setup then perfect. If we need to deviate that is fine as well.

If I haven't answered any preliminary questions please let me know.

Thank you all in advance for the help!

Scott
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post #2 of 39 Old 03-08-2013, 02:25 PM
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one sub, no eq, might make things worse. boom here, nothing there.

but if that is what you want, and you really want ported, here is a design:

2 cubic feet, net, enclosure volume
1x 3-inch diameter port that is 16 inches long and flared on both ends

gives a tuning of about 22.5hz and a flat response to about 30hz. -3db point is around 22hz.

amp probably has high pass around 20hz.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #3 of 39 Old 03-08-2013, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

one sub, no eq, might make things worse. boom here, nothing there.

but if that is what you want, and you really want ported, here is a design:

2 cubic feet, net, enclosure volume
1x 3-inch diameter port that is 16 inches long and flared on both ends

gives a tuning of about 22.5hz and a flat response to about 30hz. -3db point is around 22hz.

amp probably has high pass around 20hz.

I've played around with my own subs in that location and it definitely wasn't a boom here and nothing there scenario. I could do sealed but could only really do an EQ built into the sub. They need something simple.

I'm not dead set on ported at all, just that the driver faces down. Also open to different drivers/amps/etc. What I listed above was really just a starting point. I'll see if I can get pictures of the setup as it currently sits later today and post those up if that will help.

Scott
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post #4 of 39 Old 03-08-2013, 04:43 PM
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build a smallish tapped horn, no driver damage that way either unless they were really trying.
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post #5 of 39 Old 03-08-2013, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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That's gonna be a bit too much for me. Not the most amazing woodworker!
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post #6 of 39 Old 03-08-2013, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are a couple pictures of the current setup and room. You can see the Bose cube behind the LF speaker in the second pic.



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post #7 of 39 Old 03-08-2013, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

one sub, no eq, might make things worse. boom here, nothing there.

What he meant by that is that certain frequencies may be exaggerated while others may be non existent or significantly lower. Hence creating a boom at a certain frequency in a movie while another frequency may produce hardly anything. You won't be able to fix it without an eq. It all depends on your room and where you place it.
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post #8 of 39 Old 03-08-2013, 06:03 PM
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get the anarchy tapped horn flat pack from erich and call it a day.
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post #9 of 39 Old 03-09-2013, 06:48 AM
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get the anarchy tapped horn flat pack from erich and call it a day.

I've been waiting and waiting for the kit to come back instock, but from the email Erich sent me back, it doesn't sound like they are going to be back instock for along time if at all.
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post #10 of 39 Old 03-09-2013, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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A tapped horn will not fly with my mom at all. She's not gonna want something that big there. Are there any other suggestions or should I use the Dayton and Bash amp in a ported enclosure and call it good?
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post #11 of 39 Old 03-10-2013, 04:01 AM
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Here is a option: Single 10 with pr's: http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=Quartet10SD300
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post #12 of 39 Old 03-10-2013, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Manic1! View Post

Here is a option: Single 10 with pr's: http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=Quartet10SD300

That is exactly what I'd recommend also. It's a really great kit BTW. I had one in my bedroom for a year or so. Has quite as bit of output, really nice sounding as well.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #13 of 39 Old 03-13-2013, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a option: Single 10 with pr's: http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=Quartet10SD300

Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

That is exactly what I'd recommend also. It's a really great kit BTW. I had one in my bedroom for a year or so. Has quite as bit of output, really nice sounding as well.

I've looked at their stuff before and never heard a bad thing. It's over my budget for the project though. Good idea, maybe for another project.

Scott
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post #14 of 39 Old 05-01-2013, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok so I decided to abandon building the sub for my dad and will only be building one for my brother in law. I ordered up the RSS315HF-4 and 300W Bash amp, its all scheduled to arrive on Friday so we can get it built this weekend.

I now need some help with the box. We're not super size limited for his house but a horn is out. I modeled it in WinISD (non pro as I haven't used it before) and it came up with a 5.7 ft^3 ported enclosure tuned to 20.49hz. That seems REALLY big for a 12", is that right? Is there a better size that I should be using and tuning the sub to? Any help would be great!

Scott
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post #15 of 39 Old 05-02-2013, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Any input? I've got the sub and amp delivering tomorrow and am gonna start cutting wood tomorrow afternoon. I'm going to still have the driver facing down and want to do a slot port facing down also so nothing can get put in it from little fingers plus they add some bracing at the same time biggrin.gif
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post #16 of 39 Old 05-02-2013, 03:23 PM
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Hi Skeeter! Looks like you're not getting much input on this one for some reason. One quick thought, skip WinISD and download WinISD pro alpha. WinISD (not pro) is basically useless... I can't remember off hand what but it's missing some crucial graphs that are available in WinISD pro (for some reason I'm thinking it's excursion but that might not be right).

Another quick thought, what are the goals for this? Max output? Music listening? If big ugly ported ends up being optimal will that fly?
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post #17 of 39 Old 05-02-2013, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Skeeter! Looks like you're not getting much input on this one for some reason. One quick thought, skip WinISD and download WinISD pro alpha. WinISD (not pro) is basically useless... I can't remember off hand what but it's missing some crucial graphs that are available in WinISD pro (for some reason I'm thinking it's excursion but that might not be right).

Another quick thought, what are the goals for this? Max output? Music listening? If big ugly ported ends up being optimal will that fly?

Yeah I need to download that and start using it. I just haven't yet. Maybe I'll bring my laptop home tonight and start playing with it. I got my Karma's built last night so it'll give me something to do while cranking them cool.gif

Goals are spl for HT. I can build a pretty big box and was at my brother in laws house picking up my son yesterday and discussed it with my sister. I told her we could make it into sort of a side table as it'll be right next to the couch and she thought that was a cool idea. I've got probably 2 ft of width, 3 ft of depth and however tall a normal side table is (24" maybe, I dunno). So it can be pretty big. I can't do a horn though, I don't have the skills quite yet. I may do horns for myself when I move back into my house though in June.

Thanks!

Scott
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post #18 of 39 Old 05-02-2013, 03:49 PM
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I hear you on the horns, that's a project that still scares me as well.

Well, I was going to try to run some models but I haven't used WinISD since getting a new computer and of course it isn't working right at all frown.gif Maybe I'll try uninstalling and reinstalling. It's calculating really messed up numbers. First it was just that the unit of measures weren't what I expected but even after correcting that it's off...
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post #19 of 39 Old 05-02-2013, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I hear you on the horns, that's a project that still scares me as well.

Well, I was going to try to run some models but I haven't used WinISD since getting a new computer and of course it isn't working right at all frown.gif Maybe I'll try uninstalling and reinstalling. It's calculating really messed up numbers. First it was just that the unit of measures weren't what I expected but even after correcting that it's off...

Cool I appreciate it! Ill do the same once I get home and on wifi and get it downloaded.

Scott
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post #20 of 39 Old 05-02-2013, 04:50 PM
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What is it not calculating correctly? I'm having issues with it as well. Mainly entering mms and cms give an fs of 21 rather than Dayton's 25 for the RSS315HF-4
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post #21 of 39 Old 05-02-2013, 06:19 PM
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What is it not calculating correctly? I'm having issues with it as well. Mainly entering mms and cms give an fs of 21 rather than Dayton's 25 for the RSS315HF-4

Mine wasn't nearly that subtle...


First I entered the values not realizing it had switched to meters for xmax, square meters for Sd and cubic meters for Vas. Once I fixed that (liters for Vas, cm^2 for Sd, and mm for Xmax) it was calculating volume displaced wrong (had it x10 like xmax was cm instead of mm or something) and had sensitivity of like 115dB eek.gif I tried compensating for that by changing the xmax to 1.4 which fixed the volume displaced but not the sensitivity so I just gave up. I'm not ruling out user error though... I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't uninstall all the way... turns out I still had it open redface.gif It's reinstalling now, hopefully I'll get something realistic this time lol.



Edit: Got it working now but if I change any of the units of measure the entire thing goes out of whack. Also if I put in the actual Le measurement it's completely hosed up. Not sure what's up with my computer but I'm hesitant to make any suggestions based on any of these simulations...



Edit again: What kind of HPF options does the Bash 300W offer?
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post #22 of 39 Old 05-02-2013, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow that sucks! I don't know if there is a hpf but I think there may be. I swear I remember it being at like 15hz or something like that.
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post #23 of 39 Old 05-02-2013, 08:01 PM
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Yeah i'm not even sure where mine could be going wrong since mms and cms are the first values to input when entering a driver, or so says the manual.
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post #24 of 39 Old 05-02-2013, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah i'm not even sure where mine could be going wrong since mms and cms are the first values to input when entering a driver, or so says the manual.

I just now got a chance to get online on my laptop. I'll download it and see if I can do anything too. So odd you're having issues. I did find out my brother in law can't come over tomorrow so I have a little more time. I would like to get stuff figured out and cut on Saturday though if possible.

Scott
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post #25 of 39 Old 05-02-2013, 09:48 PM
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Quite a few people have built around that driver though.
If you run into similar issues you might try searching for some recent builds to find out how they got past it.
Good luck smile.gif
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post #26 of 39 Old 05-02-2013, 10:00 PM
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Dont be afraid to play around with smaller then recommended sizes. A box around 4.2 ft3, with a 4" x 17" port will work pretty well with that driver/amp combination.
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post #27 of 39 Old 05-03-2013, 07:18 AM
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Dont be afraid to play around with smaller then recommended sizes. A box around 4.2 ft3, with a 4" x 17" port will work pretty well with that driver/amp combination.

Graphing this at work and it looks quite a bit better than what I was playing with at home... This strikes a good balance between port length, air velocity, size, and transfer function. The port air velocity looks high but it's also low so the HPF should prevent it from being a problem.


(Funny, I was initially graphing your suggestion as a 4x4 square port 17" long and was going to come back and suggest trying to extend the port to push the port air velocity spike lower when I realized you meant a 4" round port x 17" long... with that change it's pretty much exactly what I was going to suggest lol)
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post #28 of 39 Old 05-03-2013, 09:02 AM
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The amps hpf knocks the air velocity down, but one could also use a pair of slightly longer 3" ports depending on the cabinet dimensions.
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post #29 of 39 Old 05-03-2013, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok so 4.2 ft^3 with the 17"x4" port gives us an F3 where? I'm down with the size of the box for sure! Thank you!!

Scott
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post #30 of 39 Old 05-03-2013, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
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The amps hpf knocks the air velocity down, but one could also use a pair of slightly longer 3" ports depending on the cabinet dimensions.

Yeah, I think it's well within reason. Looking at the PE page for the Bash 300W (in the Q&A section) I found that the amp has a high pass at 17.7hz. They weren't sure what order it was but even if it's 1st order it looks pretty good. Dual 3" ports at 20" each would be better but that's a lot of extra volume.
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