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post #1 of 23 Old 03-08-2013, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Here goes. After over 50 yrs of Radio repair in the USAF, framing, cabinet building, CB radio shop owner, and Network administrator....... I'm ready to build a house on 3000 acres of hills and valleys with the nearest house 2 700ft hills away, so can get as loud as I want. I'm going to turn 1/2 the basement into a HT. Not including construction costs I have a $22,000 budget and will be building everything myself. The basement is to be entirely reinforced formed in place concrete. I have 24' x 36' to work with. I need my plans done by April 26th.

I live just outside Nashville, Tn and you would think you can get the most expert advise here but after talking to a few sound engineers.... just about every thing all 3 of them have said or suggested goes contrary to everything I've been reading here for the last few months.

I'm open to suggestions. IB, concrete folded horn for the sub/ sub? I know I want to do some kind of folded horn for the main subwoofer(s). Not sure what to do for the rest of the speakers but will be building them myself. While I know it isn't possible.... I want DC to Daylight freq range or as close as I can get. Hope to do most of it with Dayton speakers since they seem most bang for the buck, that way I can invest more into the electronic side of things.

Suggestions for a balanced system? Any Middle TN AVS'ers to buy beer for?

I would like to see a few different suggestions from you guys for a balanced system. I know you need more specifics so just state what you need to know.
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post #2 of 23 Old 03-08-2013, 05:39 PM
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I would also encourage you to start a build over in the Dedicated Theater Forum. Lots of guys over there that can help you with everything from design, equipment, and encouragement.

Welcome to the madness.

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post #3 of 23 Old 03-08-2013, 08:57 PM
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$22k includes projector, receiver, amps, seats, etc. or just audio? You may want to watch the SEOS build by chop shop. You guys sound like you're in a similar situation.

If the $22k is for everything in your HT, I'd suggest the SEOS 15 plus AE TD15 design Bill Waslo recently did up.
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post #4 of 23 Old 03-08-2013, 09:42 PM
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hi bread,

the first $43 of the $22k would probably best be spent on this:

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092

tux's suggestion for mains is a really good one.

the easiest way to make bass given that you have the space is with an infinite baffle subwoofer.

there is a board here: http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general

there is an faq here: http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/index.html

this is a must read for subwoofer placement: http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf

sage advice from a guy with a ton of experience: http://www.cowanaudio.com/10steps.html
and his site: http://www.cowanaudio.com/

this build also has some great information: http://advanceddefinition.com/The%20Octagon.htm
he is a member here callsign "pnw".

hope that helps get you started.

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post #5 of 23 Old 03-09-2013, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breadtrk View Post


I live just outside Nashville, Tn and you would think you can get the most expert advise here but after talking to a few sound engineers.... just about every thing all 3 of them have said or suggested goes contrary to everything I've been reading here for the last few months.
IME most self-proclaimed pros only know just enough more than their customers to seem experts in their eyes, and the depth of their actual knowledge extends no further than what's contained in the sales brochures for what they sell. Few are as knowledgeable as the average member here. If you want to be sure of their qualifications go to their homes, see what they have for a system. If they have store bought speakers, keep looking.

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post #6 of 23 Old 03-09-2013, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

IME most self-proclaimed pros only know just enough more than their customers to seem experts in their eyes, and the depth of their actual knowledge extends no further than what's contained in the sales brochures for what they sell. Few are as knowledgeable as the average member here. If you want to be sure of their qualifications go to their homes, see what they have for a system. If they have store bought speakers, keep looking.

Bill, that is signature worthy.....wink.gif



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post #7 of 23 Old 03-09-2013, 08:41 AM
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Ha, yep. It's true in most cases I'd suspect.

Another aspect, yeah, the community is is largely world class.

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post #8 of 23 Old 03-09-2013, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breadtrk View Post

I'm going to turn 1/2 the basement into a HT.
Bad idea.

Sounds like you have enough "space" for a dedicated building.

It is absolutely critical that you must understand that $20k of bass is nearly unstoppable, and will wake up everyone in the house, and then irritate them when they are "awake", and also break dishes all the time (trust me... been there, done that).
Especially with the amount of subs people gravitate towards around these parts...

You will need to bury the theater in an underground bunker, I kid you not. I spent $30,000 soundproofing my Dedicated above-ground theater and the bass can still be heard CLEARLY within my main house, some 60ft away.
Note: my theater has no windows and has two layers of metal doors, and the 4 walls and ceiling are 13inches thick.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1436049/bassthathz-theater-build

My family thought I was insane for even wanting an underground bunker, but now they actually agree with me that that's what I should have done. eek.gif

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post #9 of 23 Old 03-10-2013, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

My family thought I was insane for even wanting an underground bunker, but now they actually agree with me that that's what I should have done. eek.gif

Are you going to be on an upcoming episode of Doomsday Preppers?
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post #10 of 23 Old 03-10-2013, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Bad idea.

Sounds like you have enough "space" for a dedicated building.

It is absolutely critical that you must understand that $20k of bass is nearly unstoppable, and will wake up everyone in the house, and then irritate them when they are "awake", and also break dishes all the time (trust me... been there, done that).
Especially with the amount of subs people gravitate towards around these parts...

You will need to bury the theater in an underground bunker, I kid you not. I spent $30,000 soundproofing my Dedicated above-ground theater and the bass can still be heard CLEARLY within my main house, some 60ft away.
Note: my theater has no windows and has two layers of metal doors, and the 4 walls and ceiling are 13inches thick.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1436049/bassthathz-theater-build

My family thought I was insane for even wanting an underground bunker, but now they actually agree with me that that's what I should have done. eek.gif

I'm not that well versed on sound-proofing, but there are simple best practices to employ; Mass --- Air Gap --- Mass

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/triple-leaf-effect/

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post #11 of 23 Old 03-10-2013, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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RTROSE;

Good idea, will do that later. This thread was to seek out a starting place because if someone had suggested a concrete folded horn I was game as is my 'crete guy. Those plans have to be set in stone so to speak. I figured that IB would also be mentioned and that wall will also need to be located early.


tuxedocivic;

22K is everything that has a wire in it, going to it, or near it. I may splurge more on the projector but really don't care to spend enough for 3d. The screen, stage, and speakers will all be DIY. Risers, walls, floor and ceiling will all be concrete which is all in the house budget, not the HT budget. After reading "What I would do different" thread, the risers may be carpentry instead of solid. That thread also has convinced me to look at room within a room. That would make future modifications and changes easier, not to mention acoustical treatments.


LTD02;

How much space do I need to lose for an IB setup? How much space does an IB need? There are no firm answers in the IB forums, also no formulas I can find. I should add here that

Bill;

You will hear for me, most everything that makes noise will be from your plans. But for the Super Sub, the rest of the speaker system is the easy part.


BassThatHz;

Ummm, this is my bunker. The other half of the basement is a fully self contained workshop that will also double as living quarters if need be. There is a reason, not really a subject for this forum, I have so much livestock and a nice chunk of land. Anything that gets through 6" reinforced concrete walls and 10" poured ceiling...... well the rest of the family is just going to have to deal with it. I should add that the living part of the house is not actually directly over the basement. There is a parking garage directly over the HT and the Kitchen, laundry, pantry are over the rest. The home is U shaped with the rest of the structure being built over a 6' crawl space. I'm sort of building into the side of a hill so that I'll have drive in access to the basement and also the garage above.



Thank you for the replies so far. The rest of the home has been in planning for 5 years and all of that is pretty much done. Back in the day I was a licensed general contractor and thanks to the codes and laws around here I can GC this project as well. The kid that I groomed to take over my construction business is my builder, my concrete guy is my Son in Law, the electrician is my fishing and hunting buddy, and my plumber is the next door neighbor. What can go wrong?
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post #12 of 23 Old 03-10-2013, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breadtrk View Post

How much space do I need to lose for an IB setup? How much space does an IB need?

Ideally 10x VAS, however, as little as 4x VAS can still be utilized. That means it varies per each drivers characteristics. Many HT IBs employ somewhat of a quasi IB alignment. They build a screen wall, and enclose as much backspace as they can sacrifice. By stuffing the backspace with a mammoth amount of insulation, the apparent volume increases, plus any reflected energy is damped as much as possible.

Understand that IB is a sub-set of sealed. There's an entire range from small sealed, barely large enough for the driver. All the way to essentially infinitely large backspace. You benefit in two ways by increasing the backspace, but primarily in the increase in bottom octave efficiency.


Here's a superbly executed FAQ.


This example, used such an approach, packed the backspace and went with the volume available. On page 2 and three the back space details are seen with great pics.


Good luck, keep us updated

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post #13 of 23 Old 03-10-2013, 08:07 PM
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Ummm, this is my bunker. The other half of the basement is a fully self contained workshop that will also double as living quarters if need be. There is a reason, not really a subject for this forum, I have so much livestock and a nice chunk of land. Anything that gets through 6" reinforced concrete walls and 10" poured ceiling...... well the rest of the family is just going to have to deal with it. I should add that the living part of the house is not actually directly over the basement. There is a parking garage directly over the HT and the Kitchen, laundry, pantry are over the rest. The home is U shaped with the rest of the structure being built over a 6' crawl space. I'm sort of building into the side of a hill so that I'll have drive in access to the basement and also the garage above.

Ok that should work... as long as it has a dedicated HVAC or a beefy duct sound-baffle.
How many amps will you be getting, 400amp service?

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post #14 of 23 Old 03-11-2013, 06:03 AM
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Sounds like you're going off-grid with suitable entertainment for long periods of extended isolation - good man! biggrin.gif

I will look forward to further updates smile.gif
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post #15 of 23 Old 03-11-2013, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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FOH;

That looks like what I need to do too. Great thread, sat up all night reading it. Mine will need to be bigger I think but that is the direction I'm going to go. Thanks for that link!

BassThatHz;

200 amp 3 phase for the basement due to tools in the workshop. Maybe I should do dedicated 200 amp for the HT? I'm having the transformer ground mounted at the corner of the property and trenches dug next to driveway for all services. Everything underground to the compound with another ground mounted distribution box between the home and other buildings. There will also be 2 more homes built in adjacent valleys in the future so I'm getting a 1500 amp 3 phase transformer. The engineer at Nashville Electric Service suggested the overkill since I don't pay for the transformer, just everything on my side of it.

MemX;

Only if I have too..... but you get the picture. My HT seating will have to be able to recline into beds.
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post #16 of 23 Old 03-11-2013, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by breadtrk View Post

200 amp 3 phase for the basement due to tools in the workshop. Maybe I should do dedicated 200 amp for the HT? I'm having the transformer ground mounted at the corner of the property and trenches dug next to driveway for all services. Everything underground to the compound with another ground mounted distribution box between the home and other buildings. There will also be 2 more homes built in adjacent valleys in the future so I'm getting a 1500 amp 3 phase transformer. The engineer at Nashville Electric Service suggested the overkill since I don't pay for the transformer, just everything on my side of it.

I'd plan for 10amps@240v per sub; and then a few other 15a or 20a@120v breakers for the full-range speaker loads, projector and lighting.
I assume you will be building an amp rack closet.

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post #17 of 23 Old 03-11-2013, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm sort of a clean power geek anyway so devoting another service for power is no big deal. You never have enough outlets, network jacks and in this case I'm sure that no matter how many I put in I'll be wanting more speaker jacks and audio cables at some point.

Amp room that will also house the rest of the rack mounted stuff..... Security, power switch over switches, mechanical controls, Major systems will be in their own racks, I have several from server room re configuration last year at work. All of this will be behind the wall that will enclose my IB. so as to not drive up the cabling costs. This will also be an independently air conditioned room, much like a server room. The HT will be a zone off the main basement unit. Lined duct with a couple 90's with turning vanes will suffice for my ears I should think.
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post #18 of 23 Old 03-12-2013, 07:54 AM
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This sounds like it will be awesome when complete smile.gif
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post #19 of 23 Old 03-12-2013, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breadtrk View Post

RTROSE;


The kid that I groomed to take over my construction business is my builder, my concrete guy is my Son in Law, the electrician is my fishing and hunting buddy, and my plumber is the next door neighbor. What can go wrong?

Why, absolutely nothing of course...rolleyes.gif The last custom home I built was for my best friend and deacon at our church. Haven't heard from him for the last 20 years.
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post #20 of 23 Old 03-12-2013, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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If I'm figuring right.... a 20' x 6' x 10' high chamber will be plenty for a pair of FI IB3 18"s?
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post #21 of 23 Old 03-12-2013, 06:11 PM
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If I'm figuring right.... a 20' x 6' x 10' high chamber will be plenty for a pair of FI IB3 18"s?

Lol yeah more like a couple to three or four pair stretching it maybe.
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post #22 of 23 Old 03-13-2013, 10:30 AM
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I think you will want at least 4 IB3-18's for that 9000cuft room. Which is stil 300cuft per 18. You should be able to box model that up.
Have you thought about which amp/eq you want to get yet?

I like the FP14k clone and DCX personally, it's one of the better bang-for-buck options. (and if you get a "working" FP14k clone, it can give world-class results).

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post #23 of 23 Old 03-13-2013, 11:16 AM
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I'm guessing he's referring to the backspace per pair ... but I don't know.

If the space begins at 24'x36', it doesn't mean the room will end up that big, that's enormous. If I were starting from a blank slate and had that much room, a huge chunk would go toward acoustics/bass damping. There's nothing, nothing like a properly damped room,.. smoothing the destructive interactions in the freq domain, and tightening up the decay in the time domain.

Regarding how many drivers, for a big space I'm not even sure if eight would suit me. But, different individuals want different things.

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