Filling in the gaps with my Sierra-1 bookshelf speakers - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 03-09-2013, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I am currently using 3 Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1's in my smaller room, (not my main system), and I am wanting to build some type of woofer setup to fill in the gaps that the Sierra-1 bookshelf speakers can not possibly fill. I would like to have the woofer in my Sierra-1's only cover the mid-range frequencys and then have some sort of bass woofer to cover from where the mid-range driver in the Sierra-1 falls off.

I have no idea how to properly impliment my ideas, and would like to get some opinions on this matter.

The basic idea would be to have the mid-range driver in the Sierra-1 cover from its bottom range, where it would start, to its upper range, where it crosses over to the tweeter. (note that I am having Dave install some RAAL tweeters in my Sierra-1 bookshelf speakers, so I am not sure if that would complicate things?)

Does anyone know what the optimal frequency range of the 5.25" driver in the Sierra-1 is supposed to cover? If I wanted to build a woofer cabinet to cover the lower-ish bass and the mid-bass up to the 5.25" mid, what would be a good woofer and enclosure to use for this purpose? I have considered the JBL2226, but am open to all suggestions. Thanks guys!
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post #2 of 36 Old 03-09-2013, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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A better way to sum this up, is that I would like to make this entire combo, (Sierra-1 + woofer in new enclosure) sound and perform like 3-way instead of a 2-way, but still use my subwoofer to cover the very lowest frequencys like from 50hz down, and use this new woofer to cover from 50hz up to where the 5.25" mid takes over.

Thoughts on this?
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post #3 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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No one has any suggestions? Dang, that is depressing frown.gif
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post #4 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 08:51 AM
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Do you mean something like this?

Midbass Module

Travis

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XT32 rocks!

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post #5 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 02:56 PM
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To sum it up, he wants to sell his Sierra and get new speakers.
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post #6 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datranz View Post

To sum it up, he wants to sell his Sierra and get new speakers.

Uh, no it's not.

To sum it up, he wants to use the existing speakers in his Sierra, and add a woofer to make it a 3 way speaker instead of a 2 way.

Worded another way:
He wants to take his existing two way speaker, and convert it into a 3 way speaker in a new enclosure.
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post #7 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 03:24 PM
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He's changing tweets, enclosure, crossover and adding mid bass, yep, not new speaker
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post #8 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

A better way to sum this up, is that I would like to make this entire combo, (Sierra-1 + woofer in new enclosure) sound and perform like 3-way instead of a 2-way, but still use my subwoofer to cover the very lowest frequencys like from 50hz down, and use this new woofer to cover from 50hz up to where the 5.25" mid takes over.

Thoughts on this?

Just turn that little dial up on your subwoofer to 200hz. smile.gif
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post #9 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 03:43 PM
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I don't think you need a woofer to fill gaps. The Sierra 5¼" mid woofer easily produces good response below 50 Hz, I think the F3 is roughly 45 Hz. Below that it's response rapidly drops.

Doesn't your sub woofer handle sound up to 60 or 80 Hz?
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post #10 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 03:52 PM
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I use klipsch bookshelf speakers along with 2 12" klipsch subs - works great!
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post #11 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 04:19 PM
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You don't really have a hole you need to have filled. The Sierra goes low enough to match with a sub. The problem is probably more to do with clean output and headroom. If your listening distance is greater than 8' then the Sierra can run out of steam pretty quick, when you start turning up the volume.

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post #12 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datranz View Post

He's changing tweets, enclosure, crossover and adding mid bass, yep, not new speaker

I'm starting to wonder if you're trolling or not. The OP only said he wants to add another woofer to change it from a 2 way speaker to a 3 way speaker. He said nothing about changing the tweeters, or changing the mid bass. He wants to add a new woofer to cover the lower bass and use the EXISTING woofer to cover the mid bass and is asking what the frequencies the mid bass handles are so he knows what crossover to use. Instead of being rude, try to read what people are asking.

Main question OP needs to know is the optimal frequency the 5.25 driver handles so he can add a woofer driver and a new crossover and enclosure.

I'm a noob at this, but maybe this would help?
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM1/srm1meas.html

Looking at that graph though I don't think what you're asking is possible but I'm still learning so maybe I'm wrong. What AV Science Sales is saying makes more sense and agrees with that graph.
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post #13 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

I'm starting to wonder if you're trolling or not. The OP only said he wants to add another woofer to change it from a 2 way speaker to a 3 way speaker. He said nothing about changing the tweeters, or changing the mid bass. He wants to add a new woofer to cover the lower bass and use the EXISTING woofer to cover the mid bass and is asking what the frequencies the mid bass handles are so he knows what crossover to use. Instead of being rude, try to read what people are asking.

Main question OP needs to know is the optimal frequency the 5.25 driver handles so he can add a woofer driver and a new crossover and enclosure.

I'm a noob at this, but maybe this would help?
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM1/srm1meas.html

Looking at that graph though I don't think what you're asking is possible but I'm still learning so maybe I'm wrong. What AV Science Sales is saying makes more sense and agrees with that graph.

No offense but he is changing the tweeters. He mentioned it in the original opening post. Is having "Dave install some RAAL tweeters". But agree about your statement in general wink.gif
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post #14 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

You don't really have a hole you need to have filled. The Sierra goes low enough to match with a sub. The problem is probably more to do with clean output and headroom. If your listening distance is greater than 8' then the Sierra can run out of steam pretty quick, when you start turning up the volume.

Yeah, I think he is looking for more than what some upgrades will accomplish when looking at the price/time that will be put into the project. Could be financially better to look into a speaker or seperates that use horns/high compression drivers for the highs and add sub/subs to what he decides then. Could just place subs right under the speakers or still build a 3 way with subs. I wish I had more output from my mains under 80hz too.
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post #15 of 36 Old 03-10-2013, 10:48 PM
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Sorry if I sounded crude, but with all that fund and effort I would think he is better off selling his Sierra than dismantling them to recreate the ascend towers.
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post #16 of 36 Old 03-11-2013, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Let me clarify, I am currently using the stock Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1's. Sometime in the next couple of months, Dave is going to upgrade the tweeters to the RAAL and modify the crossover to work with that particular tweeter, BUT, that is irrelevant! The little 5.25 woofer may indeed go down to 50hz but I want to make the front mains, LCR's, full range instead of dropping off at 50hz to 60hz. Even if they go down lower, they do not have much output at all, plus the mid-bass is weak. I want to make the front end have a full sound that is capable of doing 40hz to 60hz and up with some decent output and to fill in the gaps below. I will also likely convert these to running active or quasi-active at some point during this.


Right now I am thinking about using either the JBL 2226j or various woofers from the likes of B&C or Dayton. I can get the JBL-2226j for under $150 bucks each, not sure about the Daytons or B&C. And yes, I want to make these sound as good as a capable 3-way. I do not want to run my existing subs to 100hz or above, what I want to do is have them cover only around 60hz and below, then use these new woofers to cover the upper end of the low frequencys and the lower end of the mid-bass.

Any suggestions on woofers, enclosure, crossovers, ect...would be greatly appreciated!


P.S.- I need the most help with figuring out the best way to implement this setup. I am probably going to go active with this and use a 10 x 10 advanced plug-in MiniDsp, but would definitely consider other options. I have a several amps laying around. (ie Behringer EP4,000, (3 x )Behringer EP1,500, Peavey IPR, (2 x) Adcom GFA-545, and a couple of older Parasound amps, not sure of the models.
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post #17 of 36 Old 03-11-2013, 07:45 AM
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I already told you to set your woofer to 200hz, why do you not listen?

Even those massive VOT speakers used a single crossover of either 800 or 500hz.
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post #18 of 36 Old 03-11-2013, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vision-master View Post

I already told you to set your woofer to 200hz, why do you not listen?

And I told you that I did not want to run my woofers that high. I want to keep my current subs for the lower end of the frequency responce, and build some new enclosures that will fill in the gap between where the current 5.25" mid-bass driver in the Sierra-1 starts to go down and where my current subs will be crossed at as they were not intended on covering frequencys that high. I want to make these into a nice 3-way setup.

What you are proposing is not going to happen. If that would be the best way to go, then lots of people would be running their subs up to 200hz and never purchase tower speakers.
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post #19 of 36 Old 03-11-2013, 10:00 AM
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The easiest thing to do is add a nice sealed enclosure as a stand to your current speaker(you really don't want to destroy your speaker) and use active DSP to integrate them. You say you need more midbass? Then you have to use this enclosure at the same frequencies as your current 5.25 inch driver which will limit it's depth. The AE 12 inch drivers are probably your best bet to do both. Again, just build a 12 inch like sub enclosure as a stand(will look like a tower 3 way) and integrate it with DSP. No need to destroy a speaker and the resale value.
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post #20 of 36 Old 03-11-2013, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

And I told you that I did not want to run my woofers that high. I want to keep my current subs for the lower end of the frequency responce, and build some new enclosures that will fill in the gap between where the current 5.25" mid-bass driver in the Sierra-1 starts to go down and where my current subs will be crossed at as they were not intended on covering frequencys that high. I want to make these into a nice 3-way setup.

What you are proposing is not going to happen. If that would be the best way to go, then lots of people would be running their subs up to 200hz and never purchase tower speakers.

Yup, don't need tower speakers. lsol smile.gif
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post #21 of 36 Old 03-11-2013, 09:27 PM
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In my experience. If you cross your sub to main at 200hz, your transition will sound terrible and out of balance. Maybe I should stop snoop in this thread, but what the op is trying to do has my curiosity.
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post #22 of 36 Old 03-11-2013, 09:46 PM
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Running your subs at 200hz works great! It depends on placement and types of subs.
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post #23 of 36 Old 03-12-2013, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datranz View Post

In my experience. If you cross your sub to main at 200hz, your transition will sound terrible and out of balance. Maybe I should stop snoop in this thread, but what the op is trying to do has my curiosity.

No, one sub is set lower 75hz while the other is set to 200hz, it's kinda like surround bass. smile.gif

Each handles those low notes differently...... smile.gif

Anyhoo it's all about room acoustics.

Data say's my bookshelf system frequency response curve goes down to 22kHz.
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post #24 of 36 Old 03-12-2013, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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The easiest thing to do is add a nice sealed enclosure as a stand to your current speaker(you really don't want to destroy your speaker) and use active DSP to integrate them. You say you need more midbass? Then you have to use this enclosure at the same frequencies as your current 5.25 inch driver which will limit it's depth. The AE 12 inch drivers are probably your best bet to do both. Again, just build a 12 inch like sub enclosure as a stand(will look like a tower 3 way) and integrate it with DSP. No need to destroy a speaker and the resale value.


That has been the plan, that is, building a cabinet to house the woofer and using it as a stand for the speakers. I would like to hear some more debate on sealed versus ported. Right now I am leaning towards sealed, but, I want to make sure that these woofer cabinets do not have any issues crossing over to my ported sub-woofers. Don't worry, i did not plan on modifying the actual bookshelf speakers myself, I am actually sending them back to Ascend and Dave is going to modify them himself. I would be doing this mod whether I build an active mid-woofer setup or not.

When you say that I would have to use this woofer at the same frequencies as my existing 5.25" drivers, how is that so? My goal is to make these into active 3-way quasi towers, and have the entire setup run just like any other active 3-way. With that being said, why couldn't I use the existing 5.25" drivers to cover from the point they crossover to the tweeter, down to what ever the optimal crossover is for the woofers?
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post #25 of 36 Old 03-12-2013, 06:14 AM
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sealed versus ported........

Sealed require more power, how will they balance with the bookshelf system?


Edit..........

Ported systems are all around good performers, and most commercial home speakers use some type of ported enclosure. Automotive subwoofer manufacturers also like the ported enclosure, and most design drivers for this type of installation. The tuned port in these systems increases efficiency by nearly 3 dB in an optimum enclosure, and the roll-off frequency can be much lower, often by as much as 1/3 - 1 octave below a sealed enclosure. Think of the extra 3 dB as equal to the output you would get using twice the amplifier power on the driver.

http://diyaudiocorner.tripod.com/dilemma.htm
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post #26 of 36 Old 03-12-2013, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vision-master View Post

sealed versus ported........

Sealed require more power, how will they balance with the bookshelf system?


Edit..........

Ported systems are all around good performers, and most commercial home speakers use some type of ported enclosure. Automotive subwoofer manufacturers also like the ported enclosure, and most design drivers for this type of installation. The tuned port in these systems increases efficiency by nearly 3 dB in an optimum enclosure, and the roll-off frequency can be much lower, often by as much as 1/3 - 1 octave below a sealed enclosure. Think of the extra 3 dB as equal to the output you would get using twice the amplifier power on the driver.

http://diyaudiocorner.tripod.com/dilemma.htm

I am well aware of the differences between ported and sealed when it comes to subwoofers, but I have no idea how this would relate to building a trio of cabinets with pro-style woofers for the upper end of the low bass, and the lower end of the mid-bass. I also need help with figuring out how to implement the active crossover used to blend all of these together into one smooth sounding 3-way setup. I plan on doing some reading on this tomorrow when I get done with work.
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post #27 of 36 Old 03-12-2013, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

That has been the plan, that is, building a cabinet to house the woofer and using it as a stand for the speakers. I would like to hear some more debate on sealed versus ported. Right now I am leaning towards sealed, but, I want to make sure that these woofer cabinets do not have any issues crossing over to my ported sub-woofers. Don't worry, i did not plan on modifying the actual bookshelf speakers myself, I am actually sending them back to Ascend and Dave is going to modify them himself. I would be doing this mod whether I build an active mid-woofer setup or not.

When you say that I would have to use this woofer at the same frequencies as my existing 5.25" drivers, how is that so? My goal is to make these into active 3-way quasi towers, and have the entire setup run just like any other active 3-way. With that being said, why couldn't I use the existing 5.25" drivers to cover from the point they crossover to the tweeter, down to what ever the optimal crossover is for the woofers?

There is only two ways of getting more midbass, adding a MBM or setting crossover higher for your subs to take over the midbass duties. If you do that you don't need a 3 way to begin with. If you are fine with the sierra tower's midbass then adding the woofer to 80hz and below(wherever) is not that hard with DSP. What are the frequencies you want to add to? Just make a sub to cover them for each speaker. I thought of doing this but then I always come back to why have two 13 inch drivers per speaker(80hz and below) running fullrange when I could run them small and have 12 drivers instead, more of everything for any speaker.
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post #28 of 36 Old 03-12-2013, 12:29 PM
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This is similar to what I want to do with my SSR's. I plan on adding a 1cubic foot box with 2 Exodus Anarchy's per side.
This would unload some of the midbass off the woofer and cover the range from about 40-200 Hz (not definite on the upper level yet).
-Ed
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post #29 of 36 Old 03-13-2013, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I am well aware of the differences between ported and sealed when it comes to subwoofers, but I have no idea how this would relate to building a trio of cabinets with pro-style woofers for the upper end of the low bass, and the lower end of the mid-bass. I also need help with figuring out how to implement the active crossover used to blend all of these together into one smooth sounding 3-way setup. I plan on doing some reading on this tomorrow when I get done with work.

The less crossovers the better - sound 101.smile.gif

Of course you ain't gonna listen to logic.

Every crossover point creates distortion and frequency response irregularities, so it is wise to minimize them. You don't want two dissimilar drivers reproducing the same frequency. The best solution to this dilemma is the two-way system (one crossover point), which means a specialized "woofer" for low frequencies (for example, 20-500 Hz) and some sort of midrange/treble driver (tweeter) for the higher frequencies (500-20,000 Hz in this case).

http://www.chuckhawks.com/loudspeaker_basics.htm
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post #30 of 36 Old 03-13-2013, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vision-master View Post

The less crossovers the better - sound 101.smile.gif

Of course you ain't gonna listen to logic.

Every crossover point creates distortion and frequency response irregularities, so it is wise to minimize them. You don't want two dissimilar drivers reproducing the same frequency. The best solution to this dilemma is the two-way system (one crossover point), which means a specialized "woofer" for low frequencies (for example, 20-500 Hz) and some sort of midrange/treble driver (tweeter) for the higher frequencies (500-20,000 Hz in this case).

http://www.chuckhawks.com/loudspeaker_basics.htm


I will most certainly listen to logic, but I am not of the opinion that 2-ways are better than 3-ways, or vice versa. Everyone has their own opinion and what sounds good to me might not sound good to you.
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