Was looking at getting Seaton Submersive F2 but alot of people are recommending DIY...... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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So i was wondering, what in the DIY world would compare to an F@ (subwoofer, amp, box etc) for a much lesser price? I can't really build the box myself, but i did hear of DIY Sound that suuplies everything and you put it together i believe. That would work fine for me.

With that said, what is a comparable or better 15" sub that I can get? I would get 2 of course, possibly even upgrade to 4 later on. I have heard of Dayton and LMS I believe.

What would be a good amp to use?

One question on the amp, if my receiver has Room Correction, do i need any other processing on the amp itself? I will be getting either an Audyssey enabled receiver or Anthem receiver.

Nay and all help or recommendations is appreciated.

Thanks!
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post #2 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 01:04 PM
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As far as output it takes 2 of my 18" SI drivers (output and sound just like the Dayton HO 18" sub I've had both in my room) to equal or slightly best a Submersive so I'm not sure how many 15" you would need... 4?? Of course it would depend on the driver and the amp, size of enclosure, etc.

Sound quality compared to the Submersive is almost identical with a little weightier sound to the SI's which I like.

I'm not much help, I'm sure others will chime in.


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post #3 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Was looking at no bigger than 15" to be honest. Why is their subs i guess so much better?
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post #4 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 01:11 PM
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Just in case you havent seen this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1443078/new-to-diy-faqs-in-here

My Quad LMS Ultra 5400 Build:
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post #5 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04rex View Post

Was looking at no bigger than 15" to be honest. Why is their subs i guess so much better?

I didn't mean to give that impression, they are not better. Judging on sound quality alone it would be hard to distinguish the two most of the time, it's just that there is a slightly more "weighty" sound to the SI drivers that some people might like and others not and most wouldn't notice.

The Submersive is friggin awesome man, I owned 2 of them this past year and the quality, sound, and output are off the charts. You won't regret going with a Submersive.

If you want to go DIY you can get the same sound quality and output for cheaper but it comes with lots of work and time spent so it's up to you if you think it's worth it. I'll post specifics on how much my project cost later, have to go for now.


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post #6 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04rex View Post

Was looking at no bigger than 15" to be honest. Why is their subs i guess so much better?

Its the displacement from the extra size. A Submersive with 18" drivers would do the same thing. You literally get more bang for the buck by going with 18" drivers such as the SI 18s.

If you don't need a dual opposed box, you can get two 4cu ft. subwoofer flat packs from diysoundgroup, two Si 18 drivers, and a powerful yet economical amp such as an EP4000, all for ~$1,000. Even without the DSP the Submersive has, you are getting a similar and "weightier" sound for less than half the price, but with a bit of your own elbow grease included in putting it all together.
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post #7 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I did, but that doesn't really answer my question as to what would compare to a Seaton Submersive F2.
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post #8 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04rex View Post

I did, but that doesn't really answer my question as to what would compare to a Seaton Submersive F2.

Probably a JTR captivator S2

DIY-wise, two long throw 15" drivers like the SI's, and a good amp to run them, along with a little eQ to boost the low end, and you will have a DIY box that can get very close to the performance of the subM.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #9 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 01:40 PM
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"I did, but that doesn't really answer my question as to what would compare to a Seaton Submersive F2."

1. two 15" drivers with medium-high excursion and powerful motors.
2. one good cabinet.
3. approximately 2000 watts of rms power.
4. dsp to provide equalization and limiting.
5. the know how to make it all work together (i.e. perform at its max without destroying itself).

the only way to eliminate #5, which is probably the biggest hurdle, is to copy somebody elses build (drivers, box, amp, and dsp settings).

i would not be surprised at all to see such optimized "kits" in the future, but i am unaware of any at the present.

you can eliminate a good chunk of #4 by overbuilding the system and not worrying about pushing it to its ultimate limit. that is what carp did and that is what most folks do.

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post #10 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I did, but that doesn't really answer my question as to what would compare to a Seaton Submersive F2."

1. two 15" drivers with medium-high excursion and powerful motors.
2. one good cabinet.
3. approximately 2000 watts of rms power.
4. dsp to provide equalization and limiting.
5. the know how to make it all work together (i.e. perform at its max without destroying itself).

the only way to eliminate #5, which is probably the biggest hurdle, is to copy somebody elses build (drivers, box, amp, and dsp settings).

i would not be surprised at all to see such optimized "kits" in the future, but i am unaware of any at the present.

you can eliminate a good chunk of #4 by overbuilding the system and not worrying about pushing it to its ultimate limit. that is what carp did and that is what most folks do.
I'm very surprised actually that on here, we don't see much DIY templates that assure performance of other systems. In the PC world this is almost a given. Every month Tomshardware publishes the best bang for your buck.

Huge surprise that the DIY community here hasn't done something similar although the limitations with measuring equipment kind of makes sense. PC world though, we would see a thread every other day that would be like "Reach VTF-15H performance for only 500 dollars!" or something like that. Guess it has to do with measuring equipment and the type of people that frequent each forum.
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post #11 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the input guys. So with the SI subs, I guess that is what everyone recommends against a Submersive? Where is the best place to buy one?

Hey Carp, i know what you meant. Everyone always talks about the Submersives and how great they are, as you said your self. But it is a bit out of reach for me, price wise. Your system is actually what got me looking at DIY.
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post #12 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

I'm very surprised actually that on here, we don't see much DIY templates that assure performance of other systems. In the PC world this is almost a given. Every month Tomshardware publishes the best bang for your buck.

Huge surprise that the DIY community here hasn't done something similar although the limitations with measuring equipment kind of makes sense. PC world though, we would see a thread every other day that would be like "Reach VTF-15H performance for only 500 dollars!" or something like that. Guess it has to do with measuring equipment and the type of people that frequent each forum.

Here's a basic template that fits your criteria:

2x Fi Car Audio SSD-15 drivers
3-4 ft3 box, in dual opposed configuration
EP4000 amp
MiniDSP
REW and measurement gear to optimize FR

There you have a SubM for less than half the price, and with no 7hz HPF.


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post #13 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

I'm very surprised actually that on here, we don't see much DIY templates that assure performance of other systems. In the PC world this is almost a given. Every month Tomshardware publishes the best bang for your buck.

Huge surprise that the DIY community here hasn't done something similar although the limitations with measuring equipment kind of makes sense. PC world though, we would see a thread every other day that would be like "Reach VTF-15H performance for only 500 dollars!" or something like that. Guess it has to do with measuring equipment and the type of people that frequent each forum.

Data-Bass.com is helpful in this regard. It doesn't have every DIY option available to compare with every ID/commercial sub offering, but you can compare many well regarded setups.

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post #14 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

I'm very surprised actually that on here, we don't see much DIY templates that assure performance of other systems. In the PC world this is almost a given. Every month Tomshardware publishes the best bang for your buck.

Huge surprise that the DIY community here hasn't done something similar although the limitations with measuring equipment kind of makes sense. PC world though, we would see a thread every other day that would be like "Reach VTF-15H performance for only 500 dollars!" or something like that. Guess it has to do with measuring equipment and the type of people that frequent each forum.

I see a couple of problems with this approach:

- "performance" boils down to just a few metrics for a PC, but (as with everything in audio) subwoofer "performance" is a tangled web of tradeoffs.

- the designers of the commercial subwoofers that are respected as benchmarks in the DIY community tend to be good guys who participate in helpful ways around here, and systematically undercutting their products by "advertising" a DIY design as being the same thing for cheap would be disrespectful and wrong IMHO.
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post #15 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

I see a couple of problems with this approach:

- "performance" boils down to just a few metrics for a PC, but (as with everything in audio) subwoofer "performance" is a tangled web of tradeoffs.

- the designers of the commercial speakers and subwoofers that are respected as benchmarks in the DIY community tend to be good guys who participate in helpful ways around here, and systematically undercutting their products by "advertising" a DIY design as being the same thing for cheap would be disrespectful and wrong IMHO.

I don't think it's disrespectful or wrong. The point of DIY is to, shockingly, do it yourself. We all stand on the shoulders of giants.


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post #16 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 02:08 PM
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Thanks for all the input guys. So with the SI subs, I guess that is what everyone recommends against a Submersive? Where is the best place to buy one?

Hey Carp, i know what you meant. Everyone always talks about the Submersives and how great they are, as you said your self. But it is a bit out of reach for me, price wise. Your system is actually what got me looking at DIY.

You can always pick up two Dayton 18" HO's. Equally well regarded as the SI's, cost $50 more a peice, but they do handle a bit more power I believe. Some also say the SQ for the Daytons is a tad better. Not sure how true this is though. Daytons can be bought from Partsexpress and the SI's from here.

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post #17 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

I see a couple of problems with this approach:

- "performance" boils down to just a few metrics for a PC, but (as with everything in audio) subwoofer "performance" is a tangled web of tradeoffs.

- the designers of the commercial subwoofers that are respected as benchmarks in the DIY community tend to be good guys who participate in helpful ways around here, and systematically undercutting their products by "advertising" a DIY design as being the same thing for cheap would be disrespectful and wrong IMHO.

Imitation is the ultimate form of flattery. The whole purpse of DIY is to aim for the performance of a well regarded commercial sub, and best is with your own bare hands. Most designers and manufacturers are well aware that they are providing people with a no-hassle way of way of reaching bass nirvana.

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post #18 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 02:19 PM
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I don't think it's disrespectful or wrong. The point of DIY is to, shockingly, do it yourself. We all stand on the shoulders of giants.

You hadn't posted when I started typing (got interrupted part way through), so please don't think I have a problem with your helpful post above. I guess I was thinking about something along the lines of threads titled "The secrets uncovered: build your own Seaton Submersive for half the price!!!" or "Four Pi Killer free plans inside!!!" Silly, sure, but IMHO one should be a little careful walking the line between standing on giant shoulders and flat-out copying. That's all. smile.gif
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post #19 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 02:21 PM
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Rex,

Where are you located? I just built this a few weeks ago:



Actually have plans for a local AVS member to come out to my place with his SubM to do some head to head testing... If you are patient, we might have some objective "in-room" data to verify how the SI 15's stack up in an identically sized box...

edit - posting from my mobile SUCKS!

 

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post #20 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 02:23 PM
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one problem is that many folks get into the midset that an "assemble it yourself" subwoofer kit should save them a lot of money because their reference point is assemble it yourself furniture. but most of the 'savings' in assemble it yourself furniture don't actually come from the labor of putting 6 screws and some glue into a few pieces of wood. the savings come largely from all the retail floor space that the company doesn't need to sell flat pack furniture nor the salesman to go along with it.

internet direct companies have knocked out most of those costs, so there isn't a ton of savings left unless you want to do something that is really off the beaten path. to make it worse because of efficiencies of scale in buying and building the savings are often nil or even negative.

for example, take a look at powersoundaudio or chase home theater and tell me where a person is going to save significant money with a kit of similar design.

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post #21 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Probably a JTR captivator S2

Take it back...lol
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post #22 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Rex,

Where are you located? I just built this:



A few weeks ago and actuallu have plans for a local AVS member to come out to my place with his SubM to do some head to head testing... If you are patient, we might havr some objective "in-toom" data to verify how the SI 15's stack up in an identically sized box...

I live in Canada.

Are those the SI 15" subs? That box looks really good. I am very patient if you can compare the 2!!
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post #23 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 04:00 PM
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If you're in Canada, check out Solen.ca for the Dayton HO18 and they might have the ultimax in stock now. There's also istonline.ca but they don't have quite as much in stock, and target a higher price point. There's also creativesound.ca but they only have a 10 and 12 inch right now. The new 12" SDX 12 does look pretty nice though if you need small cabs. You could have 4 SDX12 for $1000 and beat 2 15" subs. Run them in dual opposed 75L boxes and you'd have a lot of output in a small footprint. But more costly.

Amps are harder to get in Canada for cheap. If you want a plate amp, solen and creative sound sell them. If you want a pro amp, maybe Axe music. Not much choice. Solen sells the SA1000.
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post #24 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

You can always pick up two Dayton 18" HO's. Equally well regarded as the SI's, cost $50 more a peice, but they do handle a bit more power I believe. Some also say the SQ for the Daytons is a tad better. Not sure how true this is though. Daytons can be bought from Partsexpress and the SI's from here.

I think I'd lose a bet if I said I could tell the difference between the sound of the Dayton and SI, both are great options. If I had it to do over again I'd buy the driver that was going to be in stock the soonest.


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post #25 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Rex,

Where are you located? I just built this:



A few weeks ago and actuallu have plans for a local AVS member to come out to my place with his SubM to do some head to head testing... If you are patient, we might havr some objective "in-toom" data to verify how the SI 15's stack up in an identically sized box...

FINALLY you're done with it!!!!! biggrin.gif
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post #26 of 86 Old 03-27-2013, 06:12 PM
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I'd look hard at the Dayton ultimax that tux mentioned as well as the SI 15 if still available. A pair of these in a box like popa's and a solid amp like an ep4000 would make for a killer combo.

BTW box looks great Austin!


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post #27 of 86 Old 03-28-2013, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd look hard at the Dayton ultimax that tux mentioned as well as the SI 15 if still available. A pair of these in a box like popa's and a solid amp like an ep4000 would make for a killer combo.

BTW box looks great Austin!

Wouldn't that be too much amp power for the 2 subs?
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post #28 of 86 Old 03-28-2013, 08:23 AM
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Wouldn't that be too much amp power for the 2 subs?

No. One sub per channel in 4 ohm stereo, in appropriately sized boxes, will be ~650w rms per sub.


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post #29 of 86 Old 03-28-2013, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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That is weird. When I look at partsexpress info for the amp, it says at 4 ohms, it puts out 950 RMS x2, but on Behringer's site, it says 1,400 watts x2 at 4 Ohms. You say 650. Am I looking at the wrong amp?
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post #30 of 86 Old 03-28-2013, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 04rex View Post

That is weird. When I look at partsexpress info for the amp, it says at 4 ohms, it puts out 950 RMS x2, but on Behringer's site, it says 1,400 watts x2 at 4 Ohms. You say 650. Am I looking at the wrong amp?

Here are actual measurements for the EP2500, which is essentially a rebadged 4000. No issues comfortably driving the Ultimax per channel. wink.gif


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