my two channel build..for critical listen..and home theater.. - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 83 Old 04-04-2013, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Ok so help me understand then...

Using your viewpoint but taking it just one small step further, so then... all attempts of enjoying playback of recorded sound is idiocy of the highest order? But yet, their are countless music videos with over 100 million views on youtube (because millions of people are idiots, and didn't actually enjoy it, to any degree?). rolleyes.gif

I personally think even CD quality is bad/insufficient in many many cases (or most every song is very very poorly mixed), not just mp3 and youtube, I need something better for my system (24/192 is far more ideal IMO).

But yeah, it is probably not the BEST method (to say the least), as if that wasn't super obvious as-is.

So do you rather suggest that I buy everyone airplane tickets to my house and work around their's and my daily life? Or how-else can it be shared/experienced, if not via an online video? confused.gif

Clearly, it's the only effective method, beyond driving distances.
I live in the Okanogan mountain range, good luck trying to get to my theater cheaply via any physical method. Ain't happenin'
There is probably only 1 member within 300 radial miles of me, for starters.

So how can it be done? (It can't).

At first the internet was text-only, and then there was images, and then there was video. You'll just have to adapt to it, because the technology it isn't reverting back any time soon.

Next it will be 3D, and then smell-o-vision, and then finally direct brain-interconnects.
Until then, I will continue to wait for a better/more-economic solution to be made.
Perhaps solar-powered-space-orbital-flying- cars or something?


umm i think he is trying to say listening to a video through a mic that doesn't have the same frequency response then through headphones or different speakers that have different fr is pointless. videos where u have mic close to a speaker that is almost at xmax is useful some speakers make nasty noises and such when they are pushed, on the other hand videos like heres my 20k watts blah blah is pretty pointless imo not to say someone doesn't like them so continue posting them freely, But your completely thread bombing this guys thread to the highest degree posting a wall of videos then more off topic non sense. all u prove by posting your videos are that u have a better mic his is obviously dead under 100hz which is why u cant hear it which stems back to anglers post that posting videos of speakers is pointless for comparing sound.
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post #62 of 83 Old 04-04-2013, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Ok so help me understand then...
If you'd actually thought about it for as long as the drivel I deleted took you to write, the answer would be glaringly obvious. Trying to determine the SQ via a small camera mic, then downgraded to poor mp3, tells you nothing. You have no idea whther the sound as heard via youtube is representative of the system at all because you have no idea of what the recording chain and subsequent upload is doing to it. It is vastly different to using quality mics in a studio with a good signal chain monitored on quality monitors as is done when recording music. I can easily enjoy a performance or even an old movies via low BW youtube, but I don't try to tell the quality of the sound or video from that. Most music videos I can live without; if your a good musician your performance should speak to me rather than crappy theatrics.
Edit: cookie makes similar points.

If you really wanted to convey the sound of your system to someone at a distance, a binaural recording with quality (sans video to save bandwidth) and the subsequent audio file put on one of the file sharing sites would be much more useful. Then the listener's room would not influence what they hear either. Videos are useful for showing off some visual aspect of a system or those woot moments when you're playing your subs near Xmax, but that's it.
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post #63 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 01:38 AM
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PioneerTop, compared to in-person verse your video. What do YOU think?

I wasn't insulting his system, he put a lot of work into it and enjoys it; that's total cool on all levels; and that's really all that matters at the end of the day.
I was just trying to be helpful. I like being direct and honest with people.
For example, my first system was a complete disaster, I have no shame in admitting that.
I was just trying to evaluate your system remotely and give you some feedback based on what I was hearing in your upload. (As flawed an idea as that may be...)
I heard what I heard.

Do you think my evaluation of your system's SQ was even remotely accurate? I have no reference point to compare with at all, other than other youtube videos that I have listened to over the years, including my own.

I actually enjoy it when people pick apart my system and the quality (or lack thereof) of what they hear in MY videos (I'm sick, I know biggrin.gif), I find it completes the feedback loop so that I know what improvements I need to make (potentially), factoring in the mic distortions of course. It keeps me on my toes. (and by all means, fire away.)

But not everyone is like that, nor welcomes second opinions on their system's sound quality... some people take great offence to it for some reason; I can at least respect that, so if you just prefer I go away, I will.
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post #64 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

BTH,

I have followed a lot of your build threads and admire what you've accomplished.

That being said, I think it's in poor taste to come on someone else build thread and first off insult them (via listening impressions over the internet of all things), and then go on to turn the thread into your own personal shameless plug session.

You are proud of your setup, we get that; but leave it where it belongs, in your own personal build thread. wink.gif

Well said and much better than I could do.

Al
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post #65 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

But not everyone is like that, nor welcomes second opinions on their system's sound quality... some people take great offence to it for some reason; I can at least respect that, so if you just prefer I go away, I will.

I'm pretty sure all people would and should take offense to your post. The problem is that you did little more than rip his project and provide nothing truly constructive. You tell him to spend >10x the cost of his project on treatments and cables and tell him to build a dedicated room. That is hardly constructive (and poor advice to boot...and you got ripped off BTW).

To give you an analogy it is akin to someone putting a cam in his $10k Camaro and being very happy about the modest gains. Then some guy with a new Corvette ZR1 comes in and says "that's still slow, you should have bought a $100k Vette because that is what I have."

I don't know you personally so I don't know if you were trying to be a jerk if you were just a jerk on accident. Either way, I'd suggest offering a real apology to the OP and the other participants.
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post #66 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

To be honest I find your speakers harsh on my ears.
I find they have tipped up highs, congested mids, and almost no bass.

(At least via youtube / your camera.)
I think you could solve a lot of that by changing out your electronics with something beefier, and having room treatments. Preferably a dedicated room, so as not to impede on the aesthetics of the living area.



For comparison (for whatever it's worth), here is an assortment of various random tunes played through my system.
(I recommend headphones for evaluation purposes. Is best usually.)

It's not really a fair comparison at all; yours is a starter-system and I think I spent $12000 just on room-treatments, power filtering, and wires alone. Even then, I would consider my stuff "Mid-Fi" as far as "High-End" goes...
I don't know, maybe you can use these as a litmus guide for future upgrades or something? Or not, hehe biggrin.gif
-My 2 cents














I'm not one to "quote" self-absorbed, war-and-peace-like atrocities, but this one made the cut with ease. I mean, what were you thinking by the time you posted the fifth video of your system?

Congrats...probably top-ten on a forum with 20+ million posts.

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #67 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by pioneertop View Post

the drivers were chosen ..for the T/S ..and price..if i had the means ..i mean money ..i would have gone with something like ..Morel Supreme SCW 636 6" Woofer..and matching tweeters..but @ 350.00+ per unit ..no way !!!! so i went with the bmb's ..now when it came to the design and simulation this book ( Designing/Building Speaker Systems 4th Edition Book) i bought years ago ..and it is a big help..... thanks again yelnatsch517..bless...

I thought you used a pre-made crossover- is that incorrect? On page one you show pre-made MB Quart crossovers, that is what you used, correct?
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post #68 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 09:19 AM
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How can anyone think there is anything whatsoever that can be ascertained about the sound quality of a five-figure stereo system via a YouTube video? It all sounds terrible, absolutely putrid in fact. Am I to conclude that a Samsung iPod dock blows away a stereo system that costs as much as a new car? Because that's all the YouTube videos do, if they are taken at face value.

The only thing being showcased is the quality of the microphone on the camcorder, otherwise the videos are meaningless.

To do it right, the best bet is to go out and get something like a Zoom H2n recorder/microphone, stick it on a tripod at the listening position and record some nice 24/96 uncompressed audio. Upload that to soundcloud.com and you'd have something that sounds a lot like a recording of a live show, which would go further in accomplishing the goal of demonstrating to others how a given system sounds.

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
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post #69 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 09:28 AM
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The only thing being showcased is the quality of the microphone on the camcorder
And that of the system you're listening to it on. rolleyes.gif

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post #70 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by djkest View Post

I thought you used a pre-made crossover- is that incorrect? On page one you show pre-made MB Quart crossovers, that is what you used, correct?
hey ..yes i had a pair of mb xovers laying around..for years..so i used them ..but not permanently ..just still these come in from hong kong.. i'll post my finding as soon as i get them in..the units are 400W
8 Ohms
1250Hz - 5000Hz
Hi-fi: 12dB/oct
Dimensions [per filter]: 162 x 121mm

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post #71 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 11:22 AM
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1250-5000 Hz is really high to cross the mid. I'm sure it will start beaming. Also people don't typically use symmetrical slopes for the mid/tweet crossover, since the tweeter generally rolls off at 6 dB/oct around Fs.

What I'm getting at is that pre-made crossovers aren't specifically designed for your enclosure OR your drivers, and each set of drivers requires a unique or custom crossover to get the very best out of them. If your baffle is 8" wide your f3 for baffle step would be very close to 530 Hz. I don't see any baffle-step compensation specifically in that crossover. It's just 2nd order slopes on everything with a resistor for padding the tweeter.

ETA: a 5" driver will start beaming around 3k-3.5k depending on actual cone size.
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post #72 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by djkest View Post

1250-5000 Hz is really high to cross the mid. I'm sure it will start beaming. Also don't people typically use symmetrical slopes for the mid/tweet crossover.

What I'm getting at is that pre-made crossovers aren't specifically designed for your enclosure OR your drivers, and each set of drivers requires a unique or custom crossover to get the very best out of them. If your baffle is 8" wide your f3 for baffle step would be very close to 530 Hz. I don't see any baffle-step compensation specifically in that crossover. It's just 2nd order slopes on everything with a resistor for padding the tweeter.

ETA: a 5" driver will start beaming around 3k-3.5k depending on actual cone size.
ok.. see what you mean..well my next option may be to build ... i may need your help on a xover build ..i think i have a Soldering Gun somewhere ? if not i'll buy one..

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post #73 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 12:43 PM
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Not trying to be a jerk just trying to help you out . Obviously you have the interest and the enthusiam.

I myself can't/don't design crossovers, which is why I've build pre-existing designs. The best way to go would be to get a measuring setup, and then one of the fine forum folks could help you would with that. With those 3 woofers, you might either do a 3-way setup or a 2.5 way (depending on the impedance of the woofers, the 2.5 way might not be possible).
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post #74 of 83 Old 04-05-2013, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Not trying to be a jerk just trying to help you out . Obviously you have the interest and the enthusiam.

I myself can't/don't design crossovers, which is why I've build pre-existing designs. The best way to go would be to get a measuring setup, and then one of the fine forum folks could help you would with that. With those 3 woofers, you might either do a 3-way setup or a 2.5 way (depending on the impedance of the woofers, the 2.5 way might not be possible).

Yep, there are way too many awesome pre-existing designs out there to discount them. You can still do one of them and put your own twist in the box design or what have you. Exactly what I did with my SEOS horns build.

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post #75 of 83 Old 04-06-2013, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Not trying to be a jerk just trying to help you out . Obviously you have the interest and the enthusiam.

I myself can't/don't design crossovers, which is why I've build pre-existing designs. The best way to go would be to get a measuring setup, and then one of the fine forum folks could help you would with that. With those 3 woofers, you might either do a 3-way setup or a 2.5 way (depending on the impedance of the woofers, the 2.5 way might not be possible).
hey DJ . i found a very interesting.. calculator..here ..seems..it worth the challenger...for getting the best out of the build..http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/images/logo.png

loves...home theather/music/football:)
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post #76 of 83 Old 04-17-2013, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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hey..guys these just came in this morning ... well, first they look well built ..the components...seem to be of good quality ...so i'll post my findings ..of how the build sounds soon.. i had to make some adjustments to the build the feet ..pics coming soon..



loves...home theather/music/football:)
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post #77 of 83 Old 04-19-2013, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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ok...guys i can safely say am done with the build ...( yeah right )..lol ..thats what my wife said...lol..anyway i got the xovers in and did some more sanding and polying ..to where am happy with the finish..look ..now it was so late in the night that i could not do any listen test..so i got up this morning and sat done to start ...got some sacd's out and some high res..file's did not do any movie tesing ..later on for that..well to start did the MCACC calibration..then did some EQ settings ..then got down to listen ...first i can say that the xovers did smooth out the highs.and the mids to ...the low end IMO was always good punchy tight..they actually go down pretty low..as i said before these have a good imaging...sensitivity is about 88 to 90 am guessing here, but they are not hard to drive ..they fill my room easily..with rich full sound ..my only gripe is that they need more power to shine..so a power amp is the next buy..dont tell the wife..lol here are some late pics.. had to change the feet to ..my 1 year old wants to destroy my gear..







loves...home theather/music/football:)
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post #78 of 83 Old 04-19-2013, 06:19 PM
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pioneertop, nice build bud. glad you like them.

though, dome tweeter and towers are not my thing. it's always nice to see people building stuff. and something different, is definitely refreshing. tongue.gif
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post #79 of 83 Old 04-20-2013, 05:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

pioneertop, nice build bud. glad you like them.

though, dome tweeter and towers are not my thing. it's always nice to see people building stuff. and something different, is definitely refreshing. tongue.gif
thanks smokarz...

loves...home theather/music/football:)
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post #80 of 83 Old 04-28-2013, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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well this a the last of the work..on this build for me..so i thought i'll update you guys..thanks to the advice of DJ kest..and beastAudio ..i did do work on the xover net work ...adjustments are..

bass xover @ 450/
mid xover @450/3000
tweeter xover @/3000/up..

also --did the bi wiring ..setup..upper/lower binding post..
to all of the great advice and support..from the guys here on AVS. smile.gif










loves...home theather/music/football:)
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post #81 of 83 Old 04-29-2013, 07:26 AM
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Looks great!

Al
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post #82 of 83 Old 04-29-2013, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks great!

Al
hey AL... thanks .... by the way ... AL these things need juice...lol gona have to get a power amp ...to really open them up...i like how the emotiva's looks

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post #83 of 83 Old 05-01-2013, 02:50 PM
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I'm not one to criticize someone's approach, but I'm also big on informed decisions, understanding what you actually get, not what you think you're getting.

There's a lot of that in this thread, mainly due to a single poor assumption - that speaker impedence is constant with frequency.

You're using a textbook crossover that assumes you're connecitng 8 ohm resistors to the bass, mediant, treble circuits. The resulting filters are flat up to a threshold, the "knee" which signals the transition to a 12dB/octave slope. I've never seen a speaker designed based on actual driver perfolrmance that looks like that. Let's see what might be happening...

Tweeters, like many speakers, have a tall peak in impedence, falling to a local minima before a long slow rise as frequency increases. Assuming the textbook frequency is above the minima, the rising trend just rolls off response at high frequencies, which you may have wanted to do anyway. Issues start with actual driver impedence vs. assumed impedence, leading to a level mismatch as well as a shift in filter freqeuncy from the calculated value. A 4 ohm tweeter in a circuit designed of an 8 ohm load will have a one octave shift upward in knee frequency and will be 3dB louder.

Woofers are not as simple. The impedence curve has a similar shape, but now we're going to use the region with the tall peak, so the impedence may vary by 10-20X. In addition, you have a TMWW, and dual woofers in parallel have half the impedence. Unless you have 16 ohm woofers, all the same issues arise with shifts in the filter knee, and level mismatches.

Your mid is just another woofer, but as a single, it really is an 8 ohm speaker, and so will perform the closest to what you expect... if it's got really flat frequency response.

To summarize...woofer and tweeter are likely to be crossing higher than expected, while the midrange driver is somewhere close to where it should be. The result is a broad peak from 450-900Hz, and a hole between 3KHz and 6KHz, with weak midrange due to higher output from 4 ohm woofer/tweeter sections. In addition, if the woofer has breakup modes at higher frequencies, like the one I linked, that distortion is still audible. You will have no BSC, as noted, so the low bass will be anemic if the speaker is out in the room. And any non-linearities in driver response are preserved if not exacerbated unless you're very lucky, or have a good ear and did a lot of tweaking.

I know this comes off negative; I don't see an alternative that informs your decisions. There are significant downsides to your approach, and DIY "the right way" requires a non-trivial investment in measurement gear to characterize the drivers. Ironically, the important part - XO design simulation - is a freeware spreadsheet.

And that is the genesis of "proven designs," all the savings of a clean-sheet DIY without the up front investment in measurement equipment and learning curve But you've got to solder....

Have fun,
Frank
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