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post #1 of 79 Old 04-01-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok so this is going to be a multi-part measurement thread with the contents as follows:

Post 1) Close mic sub measurements along with MLP measurements using the DCX with 8X18 sealed SI's

Post 2) Additional Sub measurements at the MLP UPDATED 4/4/13

Post 3) Audyssey and non Audyssey measurement graphs UPDATED 4/4/13

Post 4) Main SEOS12 measurements using perforated vs woven AT screen materials

Post5+) Other things suggested by anyone else

All measurements are with a Marantz 8801, FP14k, and 8X18" sealed SI subs

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post #2 of 79 Old 04-01-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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OK so here are close mic measurements of the SI18's. Don't worry about the upper range as the marantz is crossing it at 80hz and I didn't feel like doing it all over again after I had all the measurements. This post is to focus on what types of L/T's are accomplished with the DCX

Here is the graphing for the close mic measurements using various EQing steps starting with the green native response.
The red line is with a 15dB boost at 20hz LP (attempt at an L/T) and no other EQ
The blue line is adding a 6dB cut at 30hz q 2.0 to bring the rest of the curve down after the LT boost
The gold is with an added -3dB narrow band boost to fix the little dip at 42hz

Each of the above stack on to the other.



Here is the close mic response in red of the full EQing done from the first graph compared to the MLP response with zero EQing turned on. A good way to show room gain's effectiveness!



This graph now shows the close mic EQ'd response vs the first graph's eq measurements turned on:



So the flat response as close mic certainly shows a rising response at the seats, which is a direct result of the L/T. I don't know if THAT much of a rise is warranted, but it is certainly a pretty serious house curve smile.gif

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post #3 of 79 Old 04-01-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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OK! So here are some measurements with the MacBook:

This graph is a close mic measurement with the L/T, a NO L/T graph and then an L/T of 6dB boost at 20hz LP and a little 7dB cut at 32hz to bring the rest of the response down to match. It took that cut to get the response above the L/T to be as flat as I could get it. Took a good bit of messing around but this was the best I could get at the MLP.



This was quite an enlightening test right here. Mic is at the MLP and I took three measurements. Light green is with all the doors shut to the theater (upstairs door, and patio door to the outside), Teal is with the patio door open and the upstairs door still closed and the the purple response is BOTH open at the same time.



Here are some Subs only, mains only and cumulative graphs for MTG biggrin.gif Enjoy:



UPDATED 4/413:

Did some more LT adjustments and additional measurements tonight. Here we go:

The purple didnt show up but I added some LT up from 6dB to 10dB and some additional cut to bring the rest down. Gave me some more low end and kept it relatively flat above 20hz. The yellow trace is the mains set to LARGE and NO sub at all. Pretty stinkin good for some DIY mains biggrin.gif


And the waterfall graph:


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post #4 of 79 Old 04-01-2013, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are some Audyssey comparison graphs that I took tonight to see what exactly Audyssey is doing to the mains and the subs, along with DynamicEQ etc etc.

Ok on this one I don't know why the legend isn't showing again, but Red is with the mains set to LARGE no subs and no Audyssey. GOLD is with Audyssey engaged and blue is with DynamicEQ also engaged. Pretty big boost down low



Gold is still no subs, the purp is with the mains still large and the subs added (LFE+MAIN setting). Green and red show the two different XO points once I set the mains to small.


This one you can see the whole legend so that is good, but gold is no subs again, the rest are with the subs added.
The Red is with Audyssey being run and me not touching ANYTHING after the measurement. Green and blue traces are after I level matched the mains to the subs. All the speakers were around 72dB after Audyssey and the subs were at 75dB so the green and blue traces bring everything to parity according to the RS SPL meter.

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post #5 of 79 Old 04-01-2013, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright so this is one that is pretty self explanatory, but I used a stewart Firehawk to start, and now am using the Seymour XD material but here you can see the difference between the Firehawk(red Trace), no screen (Black Trace), and the XD (Blue Trace):

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post #6 of 79 Old 04-01-2013, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Re-served

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post #7 of 79 Old 04-01-2013, 07:16 PM
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Re-served

Reserved too!

 

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post #8 of 79 Old 04-01-2013, 08:13 PM
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This should be a great learning experience!
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post #9 of 79 Old 04-01-2013, 10:24 PM
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Neat!

I would like to see subs with mains disabled, mains with subs disabled then both running together with all three of those response curves overlaid. smile.gif
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post #10 of 79 Old 04-02-2013, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Neat!

I would like to see subs with mains disabled, mains with subs disabled then both running together with all three of those response curves overlaid. smile.gif

Can do! I want this to be a master measurement thread for me and for many others to see what typical adjustments can do to your system, subs and mains alike. Would you want the measurments you asked for done with the XO's for the subs and mains in place? or attempted full range?

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post #11 of 79 Old 04-02-2013, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Alright next up will be using my macbook pro to do REW for the next measurement comparisons. I am hoping the soundcard on it will play a little better than the current one is with the sub 10hz stuff. I will be sure and overlay the previous measurements with the new ones on the Apple if I can...

I never could do a loopback of the internal card on the laptop I used for the measurements I have already posted. The only ins and outs I have are two headphone jacks and a 3.5mm Mic jack right beside it, but everytime I tried to loop between them, it said the spl meter was unavailable or something like that. Wierd.

Well I see I am getting a lot of looks here, but some input would certainly be nice! This is a learning thread, ask questions or tell me what you think!!

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post #12 of 79 Old 04-02-2013, 01:53 PM
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Alright next up will be using my macbook pro to do REW for the next measurement comparisons. I am hoping the soundcard on it will play a little better than the current one is with the sub 10hz stuff. I will be sure and overlay the previous measurements with the new ones on the Apple if I can...

I never could do a loopback of the internal card on the laptop I used for the measurements I have already posted. The only ins and outs I have are two headphone jacks and a 3.5mm Mic jack right beside it, but everytime I tried to loop between them, it said the spl meter was unavailable or something like that. Wierd.

Well I see I am getting a lot of looks here, but some input would certainly be nice! This is a learning thread, ask questions or tell me what you think!!

In Windows you have to make sure the recording input source is correct and the line gain and mic boost is adjusted accordingly.
But with Apple, that's just crazy talk! eek.gif

I've seen large companies running Linux Servers or Windows Server editions (big names like: IBM, HP, Cray, Microsoft, Google etc), but never Apple-Server. Wonder why? hehe tongue.gif
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post #13 of 79 Old 04-02-2013, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Can do! I want this to be a master measurement thread for me and for many others to see what typical adjustments can do to your system, subs and mains alike. Would you want the measurments you asked for done with the XO's for the subs and mains in place? or attempted full range?

With the x-over for both in place or however you plan to run them. What I am trying to see from that measurement is how well the subs and mains are integrated. Your should see an increase in dB over either mains or subs by themselves otherwise the delay/distance setting is not setup correctly.
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post #14 of 79 Old 04-03-2013, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Can do! I want this to be a master measurement thread for me and for many others to see what typical adjustments can do to your system, subs and mains alike. Would you want the measurments you asked for done with the XO's for the subs and mains in place? or attempted full range?

With the x-over for both in place or however you plan to run them. What I am trying to see from that measurement is how well the subs and mains are integrated. Your should see an increase in dB over either mains or subs by themselves otherwise the delay/distance setting is not setup correctly.

Got ya. I have done that with all previous setups to ensure I had the best crossover point selected for the LCR's and have found with this setup, at least before the eqing, that 100hz had the most seamless blending of the two, along with a little bump in the blending region, but I will gladly post up what I found, perhaps with several different XO points as well.

I have also decided to lump all of my signal box conversion measurements into this thread as well but I am going to save that one for last. Last...as in, it has taken more than a year to actually sit down and do all the loopbacks of all the different bump boxes, the mic220 and the DCX. long awaited I guess, but well worth it, haha.


BTH,

Are you saying the Apple is a lot easier to use? OR not as versatile?

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post #15 of 79 Old 04-03-2013, 06:31 AM
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Good thread, we need more graphs and such. I fixed my crossover area with a simple delay change on the subwoofer. They are 13 feet back and in phase and delayed at 13 feet gave me a huge dip at the crossover. I changed the distance to 7'6" and it is now flat at the region. Here are my nearfield and then my raw response. No EQ.



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post #16 of 79 Old 04-03-2013, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok so my schedule opened up some tonight so I will hopefully be doing the Macbook comparison and then probably some impulse response graphs to see how all that is doing. I did mess around some with added delay times and phase last night and it appears that at 0degrees and no additional delay aside from Audyssey tested distance levels, I am right where I need to be (even though I didn't have audyssey engaged, I was still using the distances). Everything I tried made it worse but once again, this was just for the subs running, not the full range sweep.

Anyways, more fun to come this evening now!

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post #17 of 79 Old 04-03-2013, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Updated post #2 with tonight's measurements. With all the feedback I have gotten thus far, I will just keep having fun and hope at some point I will get some constructive feedback smile.gif Everyone is lookin' but ain't no one talkin'!!!! Haha tongue.gif

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post #18 of 79 Old 04-03-2013, 09:06 PM
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This was quite an enlightening test right here. Mic is at the MLP and I took three measurements. Light green is with all the doors shut to the theater (upstairs door, and patio door to the outside), Teal is with the patio door open and the upstairs door still closed and the the purple response is BOTH open at the same time.


funny how up to 12Hz or so, it's what one would expect based on sealed/lossy room theory and then all of a sudden the curves flip.

did not bosso observe something similar?
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post #19 of 79 Old 04-03-2013, 10:19 PM - Thread Starter
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He sure did.... and my reasoning behind doing these measurements in the first place was just that biggrin.gif

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post #20 of 79 Old 04-03-2013, 10:41 PM
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I will run some graphs tomorrow with my doors open and closed. They are double doors so about 7 feet tall and 6 feet wide for an opening.
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post #21 of 79 Old 04-04-2013, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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OK so my thoughts on the measurements. I still get that aweful drop around 12hz, which stinks, but it seems it levels off a shade until the "real" signal rolloff around 5hz. After listening to the system a little bit I still feel I have some work to do, and I need to get some waterfall and impulse graphs posted still. The bass doesn't sound very cohesive so I need to look more into the time domain. Right now I have two of the DO boxes (the wood ones) in each corner with the mains on top of them. Those are on one SW channel on the marantz. Then I have the two Sonotubes located right inside those with the only room left for the center channel in the dead center. The sonos are on the SW2 output. After Audyssey tests the system, it has the outside boxes at 13.2 feet and the inside boxes at 12.8 which is about right, but to me it didn't sound good at all. I am contemplating going to putting them ALL on a single SW output and seeing what that does, but I haven't gotten to the Audyssey testing phase yet. I am also considering some more sonotubes and going the "stacking" route a-la Bosso style smile.gif but I would need either Bosso or someone else to push me pretty darn hard to get me to run out for more sonotube biggrin.gif

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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

OK! So here are some measurements with the MacBook:

Here are some Subs only, mains only and cumulative graphs for MTG biggrin.gif Enjoy:



Yep that looks good.
My Pioneer's MCACC calibration must stink for setting up subwoofer distance. It did a terrible job integrating the mains with the subs...although I am running the mains fullrange and I wonder if that had anything to do with it.
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post #23 of 79 Old 04-04-2013, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd be willing to bet it does. At 100hz, this is the best integration that I got out of all of the XO points. Any of the others showed a little dip in the dead center of the XO region. I would love to get a little more out of my mains, perhaps to 80hz, but it just doesnt model as well...

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post #24 of 79 Old 04-04-2013, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Nasty rainy out right now, so I've got another fun night of sweeps to run and such. From what yall have seen so far, what else do you think I should measure tonight? I am thinking of getting the system flat as possible and then testing to see what the different pink noise generation stuff gets me on the subs using the different mics and possibly what audyssey does with it's own measurements without touching anything and then adjusting the XO points, dynamic eq and such.

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post #25 of 79 Old 04-04-2013, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, getting a lot of good feedback here!!! Haha, j/k but it would be nice! Do ya'll think I am getting that bad rolloff down low because I don't have a loopback soundcard cal? I don't know how to do it in REW with just headphone jacks on my laptop. I do have an external soundcard but it uses only RCA's and now that I am using USB mics exclusively, I don't really know what to do to do an internal soundcard calc.

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post #26 of 79 Old 04-04-2013, 05:13 PM
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Well, if the soundcard rolls off, the signal does too.

But - the issue is - is it rolling off on the input side or the output side??

No way to know without a 2nd sound card that is a known quantity, or a GOOD voltmeter or oscilloscope.

Let's be honest here...once you're in the single digits, it is sort of a first-world problem though, isn't it???
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post #27 of 79 Old 04-04-2013, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok first couple of posts updated with some new stuff smile.gif enjoy

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post #28 of 79 Old 04-05-2013, 08:26 AM
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Nice work, beast! Cool stuff for sure. I've got dozens of measurements saved on my laptop, I should get them uploaded. cool.gif
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post #29 of 79 Old 04-05-2013, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I'd be willing to bet it does. At 100hz, this is the best integration that I got out of all of the XO points. Any of the others showed a little dip in the dead center of the XO region. I would love to get a little more out of my mains, perhaps to 80hz, but it just doesnt model as well...

Yep, I am quoting myself. Since it is so lively around here smile.gif Really though I wanted to post this to point out that after messing around just a little, I am now getting a little better blending in the XO region so I have now managed to get a good response with the filters set at 60hz and 80hz instead of 100hz. The last of the audyssey measurements show this.

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post #30 of 79 Old 04-05-2013, 11:09 AM
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Have you tried dialing in the mains on fullrange with subs set to +?

I see the nasty dip centered at 35hz here.
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Gold is still no subs, the purp is with the mains still large and the subs added (LFE+MAIN setting). Green and red show the two different XO points once I set the mains to small.



If you want to try them fullrange just manually play with the sub distance setting and you can make that dip go away. What you want to do is measure the mains without the subs then subs without the mains and use those two graphs to check on your distance changes. When you have it dialed in correctly there should not be any destructive interference between them. So with both enabled the level should be higher then either one by itself across the region where they overlap. So start off by adjusting the distance 1-2' intervals in one direction and re-measuring at each. Watch the interference pattern, if the pattern looks like it is getting narrower (more dips and peaks in the bandwidth) you are moving the wrong way. If you move in the right direction you should either end up with the whole range being boosted or a large null across the entire overlap range. If you get a null just flip the polarity of the subs.
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