Question: you need ONE single 2 channel amplifier for a pair of subs under $1000... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 04-03-2013, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Whaddya take? Well-cared-for used is ok.

I have an opportunity to grab a newer, pristine QSC 5050 for $850 and I'm having a hard time talking myself out of it.

The Crown XLS 5000 seems like a nice option but I've read and had a Crown tech confirm that it drops like a rock at 20hz (24db per oct) so the QSC could have an edge there, all else being equal as I've heard it's good all the way down to 4-5hz- not that I'm really seeking anything that low, but the 15hz neighborhood would be alright. Heard the fans considerably quieter with the QSC too, but I could mod either.

Either seems to do well with 2 ohm loads so that's nice as my pair of Dayton duals are 2ohm, each.

Clones out for me, sorry. Simply not willing to take the risk.

Are there other options out there I shoulda be considering? I recall the marathon 5050's being a hit for awhile but I don't seem much of a sonic advantage with them over the Crown or QSC...lower cost though, correct?

Thanks for any input!

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #2 of 52 Old 04-03-2013, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, and this can be had for ~$750:

http://www.crestaudio.com/products/browse.cfm/action/detail/item/116301/number/01000740/cat/342/CC(tm)%204000.cfm:

Thoughts/experience?

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #3 of 52 Old 04-03-2013, 06:22 PM
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have you taken a look at the cerwin vega cv5000? i believe it is a crest pseudo copy like a few of the others that you mention. $800 new. 5000 watts. haven't seen measurements.

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post #4 of 52 Old 04-03-2013, 07:38 PM
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Afaik, Crown CE4000 is still a decent sub amp if you can find one at a good price and has the power you need. 1800wpc @ 2 ohms, if you run it on 240V. 1400wpc @ 2 ohms @ 120V.

They're not real pretty...but...

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #5 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 11:11 AM
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I've been interested in one of the smaller Crown amps, but weren't some people having issues with low frequency roll off AND not handling 2ohms well? I need a smaller amp, cheap. But want lots of extention. Thinking Peavy IPR1600 dsp. But also like the small crowns. Do you need it to extend below 20hz? Any idea if the XLS 1000 drops like a rock below 20hz?
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post #6 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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^ I'm not going to speak for Crown (or TRY not to anyway, lol) but both through a phone call and an email, they have told me in no uncertain terms that ALL of their amps being produced now/recently roll off at 20hz.

Now, how "fast", I do not know, but I've heard 24dbs an oct and I would necessarily argue- at least with my xti 4002- with that figure after running a 10 hz sine wave against a 20hz, level-matched.

Most here know I'm not terribly into chasing single digit hertz, but I also don't need to go off a cliff at 20, either. My real point is that if I can pick up a few dbs for my eventual, larger, space for the same $, I'm all for it.

I guess I'm bored too. smile.gif

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #7 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 11:36 AM
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I can confirm (as an owner) the Crown 5000 does not roll off until 7hz with my setup. The fans are noisy, but so are any others in this category. I've run it hard into 2 ohm loads with no issues at as well with my Captivators as well as my Dayton 18s.

I know you don't want to hear this, but the Clones are by far the most power for the money in this price range. biggrin.gif One FP14 will easily (over) power 8 of the 18's.
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post #8 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

have you taken a look at the cerwin vega cv5000? i believe it is a crest pseudo copy like a few of the others that you mention. $800 new. 5000 watts. haven't seen measurements.

I just ordered one of these last night for an eight sub system. It should serve you well. smile.gif $800 brand new free shipping from Amazon.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #9 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I can confirm (as an owner) the Crown 5000 does not roll off until 7hz with my setup. The fans are noisy, but so are any others in this category. I've run it hard into 2 ohm loads with no issues at as well with my Captivators as well as my Dayton 18s.

I know you don't want to hear this, but the Clones are by far the most power for the money in this price range. biggrin.gif One FP14 will easily (over) power 8 of the 18's.

I was going to ask you this very question Gorilla, thanks- a tech at Crown wasn't sure with the 5000. I realize the clones are more powerful, but I simply do not want to risk having issues with them and I already rarely use the output I have now- although that will likely be changing, admittedly. Besides, as I understand it, I cannot run 2 ohm loads off the clone anyway and then I'm at no advantage re-wiring my cabs to 8 with the clone.

Personally, I find the xls 5000 hard to beat at 5-$600. I'm just a bit timid as I have not found anyone who has had success with a fan mod...as in a markedly quieter amplifier. wink.gif

thanks again

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #10 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 11:53 AM
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The Crowns were indeed a steal when they were 5-600. If they were still around at that price new I'd probably grab another one. Archaea is the only one I know of that fan modded one of these, but he wound up cutting the shrouding for the fan I believe in order to quiet it down.

The clone's are not 2 ohm stable (at least that is the rumor), but one channel of the amp is more than enough to fully power four of our 18's. Anywho, you could accomplish something similar with 2 of the XLS5000's or the CV5000s. It's just cool to have so much power in a small/light case - as well as the ability to easily fan mod if you want to.
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post #11 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a shot at a very reasonably priced 5000 so that may be the route I take, now that you've assured we are not cliff-diving at 20.

I'm convinced I can get a quieter fan in there one way or another. I'm also had great luck halving the voltage with stock Crown fans and having them perform 10/10.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #12 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 12:14 PM
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Here was my room with 4 of the 18's powered by the crown, post Audyssey-run. Running Audyssey knocked down a bit of the midbass, but added very little (or no) boost.



Hit up Jonathan (Archaea) before you mess too much with the fans. If at all possible, I'd rather relocate the amp and power up/down with a relay vs. the fan modding.
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post #13 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 12:22 PM
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What's with the lack of amps with lots of extention. They all seem to die in the low end frown.gif
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post #14 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks, unfortunately relocation is not an option, but I can perform a little magic in about 10 minutes, literally, without touching a fan. Simply a matter of the fan being able to start up with half the voltage...it's worked thus far on 3 different Crowns so I don't expect much to change.

We'll see what happens...

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #15 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

What's with the lack of amps with lots of extention. They all seem to die in the low end frown.gif


"Die" by design, anyway.

A Crown guy I spoke with pretty much bowed to my hypothesis, which was, essentially: "pro" applications (read dj's, bands, big venues etc) are rarely concerned with much below 40hz, never mind 20, so stretching much below that is simply chasing a solution that doesn't have a problem in the first place. Much easier to simply nose dive it and concentrate on the "other" 99+% of the spectrum.

Or as a Crown tech mentioned: "we don't spend a lot of time focusing on replicating frequencies you cannot hear or are almost impossible to reproduce at audible levels in the types of venues these amplifiers are utilized in".

Pretty reasonable, imo.

On avs we can go ahead and come up with dozens of "x" second-long clips of movies with sub 10hz content, but the fact of the matter remains that they represent but a miniscule sliver of the total playback universe.

I don't think Crown amp sales are floundering so I'm sure they have a pretty good idea what their target market is looking for/what their primary design goals should be.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #16 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 12:57 PM
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You're absolutely right. Just frustrating for us idiots on the fringe who want sub-20hz content.
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post #17 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 01:15 PM
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The QSC PL380 goes to about ~4hz as well, not sure on it's cost though.
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post #18 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 01:30 PM
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^^^^

Pretty nice amp but also expensive last I saw.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #19 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I've been interested in one of the smaller Crown amps, but weren't some people having issues with low frequency roll off AND not handling 2ohms well? I need a smaller amp, cheap. But want lots of extention. Thinking Peavy IPR1600 dsp. But also like the small crowns. Do you need it to extend below 20hz? Any idea if the XLS 1000 drops like a rock below 20hz?

Wouldn't mess with the xls1000, it is a LOT cheaper made than all it's bigger brothers, even the 1500. Bumping up you get a better PS, board, and overall better amp, for not much more out of pocket. I have an xls1500 and it is a great little amp, I just don't have the need for it at the moment.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #20 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I have an xls1500 and it is a great little amp, I just don't have the need for it at the moment.

Wanna sell biggrin.gif To bad I live in Canada.

Does the 1500 extend deep?
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post #21 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 01:59 PM
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No idea, I have always used it for mains duty, never subs, so I have not tried it down low.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #22 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

No idea, I have always used it for mains duty, never subs, so I have not tried it down low.

Keep it for your LS6's or ... that XXX IB, ya know. wink.gif

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #23 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Wanna sell biggrin.gif To bad I live in Canada.

Does the 1500 extend deep?

All current Crown amps have a non-defeatable 24Db/octave high pass filter that starts at 20Hz. I called them and asked an engineer to "say it ain't so"... but it is. For 98% of applications that's a non-issue; for anyone looking to run multiple sealed subs and hit single-digit Hz (or even low teens), Crown amps should not at the top of their list.

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post #24 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 02:58 PM
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I don't think the XLS5000 is "current" enough to where they offer that but that is just my guess. I mean it is powerhouse mainly meant for one reason, LF duty, so I can't imagine they have that same filter on it, especially since members have seen good response even below 10hz with it smile.gif Once again, that is just a guess. The responses kinda speaker for themselves

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post #25 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 03:58 PM
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What a shame. The crown amps look fantastic. Well I'm not gonna risk it. I'll probably get a Peavey IPR 1600 cause it's cheap and has a DSP option for $50. Makes enough juice for me. Only other options seems to be hifi amps or the Dayton.
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post #26 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 04:17 PM
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the EP4000 also works its rolloff is lower vs the crowns as well
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post #27 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't disagree with you tux, it is a bit of a shame for us "freaks"...

But Ill say this about my crown xti 4002: it's a pretty damn fantastic amp. I push the living hell out of it fairly often (125+db) and it's quiet, has never shut down or even cut out for a second.

I suppose its response below 20hz hurts a lot of fanatics like us, but I can tell you that "normal" folk are absolutely blown on their ear by it.

If it matters to anyone I also spoke to a qsc rep and it seems they have do not have a specific interest in limiting at 20hz...again for whatever it's worth.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #28 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 06:45 PM
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Has anyone actually measured the response of the Crown amps to see if the below 20hz filter is real? There's lots of speculation without verification going around.
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post #29 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 08:55 PM
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See if you can get a schematic of the Crown amps and I'll be able to tell you, as well as how to bypass it. Depending upon how they're put together it might not be difficult at all. Many pro amps have rear panel sockets go to the front panel with the attenuators and a 24dB filter would likely be here, off the main amp board. Connection to the main amp board would be via a ribbon or other cable, so once that's confirmed, a cable from the rear panel to the amp boards would bypass it.
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post #30 of 52 Old 04-04-2013, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

Has anyone actually measured the response of the Crown amps to see if the below 20hz filter is real? There's lots of speculation without verification going around.

Feel free to call Crown yourself and ask, like I did. Nothing speculative about the answer they gave me. They said you'd have to go in and physically alter the circuitry to bypass the 20Hz high-pass filter that's built into their current lineup of amps. Should be a non-issue for just about any application other than arrays of sealed 18" subwoofers.

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