New Sundown X Series drivers - Wow! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone seen these things!? Their monsters! Pretty freakin beefy at 45-51lbs (10in to 18in).


And I quote -
"Linear x-max is around ~30mm one-way by 70% BL with a total mechanical clearance of 50mm in the motor."
10 is $280 and 18in is $350. If these things perform as good as they look, there's a serious new player in the "bang for your buck" category! ETA on them is June 30th.

Found TS specs -
http://www.emfcaraudio.com/x-series/

Pics of them -
http://forum.realmofexcursion.com/sundown-audio/76701-sundown-x-10-x-15-x-18-prototypes-here.html

Haven't had a chance to model in Bass Box. I'm not good at telling how good a driver is just by looking at specs, so any input on how these specs look?
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post #2 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 02:36 PM
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Sweet! Specs look decent enough to me. The d4 reminds me of my RLp18d4's specs. Inductance is a little high-ish but we've been spoiled by some fine fine low Le drivers recently but overall not too bad and close to a preferable 1:1 Re/Le ratio. Just looking at the specs it looks like they will model well in medium to large enclosures. I'll plug in the numbers to Unibox now.


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post #3 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm doing some rough modelling on some drivers for another member right now (roughly 20 drivers...ugh). So I won't be able to play with these numbers until later. But these do look quite nice for the price. $300 for a 12in driver like that....I might have to find a way to increase my new sub budget.
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post #4 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 02:40 PM
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Looks very good in a 6cuft sealed! (18d4 I mean)


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post #5 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 03:25 PM
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Lol, that surround looks ridiculous... cool.gif
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post #6 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 03:54 PM
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Specs look pretty good, though they are hella ugly. That surround looks like an ass pillow for roids. I would not want that looking at me every time I fired up a movie! lol

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #7 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Specs look pretty good, though they are hella ugly. That surround looks like an ass pillow for roids. I would not want that looking at me every time I fired up a movie! lol


LOL tongue.gif


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post #8 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 05:48 PM
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Didn't notice this earlier; glad to see you guys taking note While they are designed primarily for car usage there is no reason they cannot be used in a home environment and with the much lower than typical Fs for a car woofer would likely excel for movies and whatnot. The trend in car audio these days is to "kill the lows" so we've designed our newer lines around that.

The surround is the most "controversial" part of the driver I suppose -- but they are there for a reason. Each surround is sized for the frame platform it mates to (they get larger as the cone diameter / frame clearance / spider diameter increases) and is designed to support 5mm more excursion than the frame can support so that we don't see surround failures from over-excursion even at full frame x-mech. It's also pretty linear -- I had the Z v.4 15" prototype Klippel tested (early prototype with a bit less x-max) :

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-driver-specs/141047-sundown-z-v-4-15-klippel-test.html

Same suspension as the X line -- but stiffer for the higher power. The Klippel wasn't able to resolve the absolute suspension limits (typically defined as 50% shift) -- but you can imagine based on the graph as it's only shifted ~15-20% over about 60mm p-p (30mm one-way) stroke. The Z v.4 should also jump up to about 35mm by BL for production with the modifications we made; and the X should measure right around 30mm. The Z v.4 may be a bit too stiff for HT applications, though.

The suspension "platform" of cone and spider are designed with future designs in mind that will push 40-50mm of linear excursion.

I've had a few folks a little concerned over reduced SD figures; in reality it's only about 10% off on Sd from a standard roll so not a huge deal. We've been doing some pretty hard prototype testing in-car of the new drivers with a Z v.4 12" in a Volkswagen Golf -- that setup peaks at 25 Hz and achieves 145.5 dB at that frequency with a measured 1950 watts of power. So where displacement is key (low frequency) the driver excels -- we can see the trade-off of some Sd for incredibly high mechanical travel was well worth it.

In any event; I could answer any other questions that you guys may have if you like.

- Jacob Fuller
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post #9 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 05:52 PM
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Already dreaming of big tapped horn designs, i'm sure lilmike will take a look and let us all know!
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post #10 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 05:59 PM
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they can handle 1250 watts rms? Dang! Scott can you post some models? how about this driver in a 18" up against two SI 18's.

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post #11 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 06:08 PM
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We use very conservative power ratings due to how the car audio market works (everyone runs an amp 2x bigger than what we suggest and at 0.5 ohm) -- the coil is a 60mm long 3" CCAW round wire coil on aluminum former; so the 1250-watt rating is very conservative.

---

Also -- just to keep all the facts in line; those are pre-order prices -- the regular prices are ~15-16% higher.

You can still pick up 2x SI HT 18s for about the cost of 1x X-18 driver at regular price.

On that note -- the SI HT line will also be expanding to include some beefier drivers as well as time goes on -- so stay tuned on that smile.gif

- Jacob Fuller
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post #12 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 06:45 PM
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T/S specs for Sd are subject......the surround is nearly 1/4 the drivers total area.....should be more like 850 cm/2 or less for the 18's.
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post #13 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

they can handle 1250 watts rms? Dang! Scott can you post some models? how about this driver in a 18" up against two SI 18's.

Sure. In a little bit. They model very similar to the SI HT 18's but with more rated travel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundownz View Post


On that note -- the SI HT line will also be expanding to include some beefier drivers as well as time goes on -- so stay tuned on that smile.gif

Wut. eek.gif

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post #14 of 62 Old 04-09-2013, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for chiming in Mr. Sundown!

I come from a car audio background. I've always believed there is absolutely no reason a car sub can't be used in home. As long as it specs good at least.

I have a very good friend who used to work for TC a few years back. I remember him showing me some of their subs (before they hit the market...hehehe), and also stopping by with a W7 when they first came out. So a giant surround like this doesn't surprise me in the least and I don't care how it looks. Function over form! I came across these earlier today. Before I even saw the specs, I could tell they were built to be used...and used hard. And then I saw the price. I almost fell out of my chair! If you guys can truly deliver these at those prices, I have a feeling that the home audio DIY guys are going to love you!

These look awesome and I'm already stashing money away to grab one or two 10's or 12's. Just yesterday I was considering a TC Epic. Well, I think that idea has been tossed.

I am really interested in how these will compare to a similarly sized TC Ultra. Equal, or better performance, for a third of the price?

And Jacob, that diymobile link requires registration. frown.gif
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post #15 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

T/S specs for Sd are subject......the surround is nearly 1/4 the drivers total area.....should be more like 850 cm/2 or less for the 18's.


Nothing suspect about it ; it is calculated using 1/2 the surround as Sd :

"The effective radiation area SD is one of the most important loudspeaker parameters because it determines the
acoustical output (SPL, sound power) and efficiency of the transducer. This parameter is usually derived from the
geometrical size of the radiator considering the diameter of half the surround area. "

* SOURCE *
http://www.klippel.de/uploads/media/Dynamical_measurement_SD_Klippel_Schlechter.pdf

This paper is primarily about micro-speakers (where that definition doesn't apply) but does introduce itself with the standard definition of Sd =)

- Jacob Fuller
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post #16 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 05:28 AM
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You guys are slipping around here. These have been talked about in car audio forums for a few months already.


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post #17 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 06:54 AM
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So is it safe to model these at 2500 watts ?

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post #18 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 07:22 AM
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We do rated them 1250 RMS so I don't typically go around telling folks to run 2x that to them for obvious reasons smile.gif

BUT you won't mechanically hurt anything until 4" p-p and there is really no way to "accidentally" thermal this unit with the coil size and motor ventilation present. Based on my experience in car audio I won't say it's impossible to damage them even on a 1250 watt amp used completely improperly / poor box configuration -- but anyone paying ANY attention whatsoever should be okay to utilize an amp rated for 2500-watts.

- Jacob Fuller
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post #19 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

You guys are slipping around here. These have been talked about in car audio forums for a few months already.

Not me dude, I actually got to see one in action smile.gifsmile.gif meheheheh

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post #20 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 11:30 AM
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Jake,

Do you have any further news on when these and the new ZV4's might be on hand?


Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Not me dude, I actually got to see one in action smile.gifsmile.gif meheheheh

Lucky you...smile.gif

i just thought it was odd there wasn't a thread on this here yet.


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post #21 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 12:23 PM
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The ETA is by the end of June on the X and Z v.4 drivers. They may come in a bit earlier in June but we are being conservative and saying end of June.

- Jacob Fuller
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post #22 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 12:32 PM
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Can someone post the TS specs of the Z series V4 so we don't have to register on another site?

Thanks!!
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post #23 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 12:59 PM
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bringin back the fat surrounds but with a twist of tall. "big and tall"
look bad ass. will they be a run at the SI 18s ??
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post #24 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 01:21 PM
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I'm looking forward to the X and Zv.4

After I finish my quad LMS-18 build, if it still isn't loud enough, I may just have to add 8 of these sundown's biggrin.gif

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #25 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 05:42 PM
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Your neighbors will hate you!
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post #26 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 06:42 PM
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The Sundown Audio X18 models almost exactly the same as the old AVA18 and Malestrom-X drivers except it needs more power and more excursion to achieve the same spl. Are these drivers rated to be pushed past their rated xmax? If they can be pushed to 40mm then they can squeeze out 2db of spl... that is great for the price! If not, why the Godzilla surrounds? Protection from abuse?

How do these drivers SOUND? Are they meant only for SPL or do they sound as good as maybe the above mentioned drivers?
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post #27 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 09:47 PM
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More excursion to produce the same spl... because of slightly lower SD?

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post #28 of 62 Old 04-10-2013, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

More excursion to produce the same spl... because of slightly lower SD?
Must be.

(x) surface area * (y) excursion * (w) frequency = (z)dB
Reduce x, y, or w and z also drops.

YID DIY
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post #29 of 62 Old 04-11-2013, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtight View Post

The Sundown Audio X18 models almost exactly the same as the old AVA18 and Malestrom-X drivers except it needs more power and more excursion to achieve the same spl. Are these drivers rated to be pushed past their rated xmax? If they can be pushed to 40mm then they can squeeze out 2db of spl... that is great for the price! If not, why the Godzilla surrounds? Protection from abuse?

How do these drivers SOUND? Are they meant only for SPL or do they sound as good as maybe the above mentioned drivers?

As I mentioned above; there is no real thread of physical damage until about 50mm one-way (coil bottom)

Pushing to 40mm certainly won't hurt the driver.

As far as sound; they are a clean driver -- but they don't have any super fancy technology other than incredibly high capacity suspension. THD from BL and Suspension is low -- but they don't have any inductive treatments. I will get Klippel on production units as well.

The entire suspension system is designed for drivers with higher capacity than the X line (Z v.4 / upcoming NS v.3 / future designs) -- so there is more capacity than the X line needs in the parts.

- Jacob Fuller
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post #30 of 62 Old 04-11-2013, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by financethis View Post

bringin back the fat surrounds but with a twist of tall. "big and tall"
look bad ass. will they be a run at the SI 18s ??

These are not designed to compete with the SI HT line (I am a part of that project). They are a part of the Sundown car audio line. If one is so inclined they could be put into an HT application, though.

We aren't ready to release any solid information but the SI HT line will grow to include some bigger drivers; Nick will be the one to come out with that information when it's available. When they are ready they will be more optimized for the HT realm than Sundown products.

Dollar to displacement I believe the SI HT units are a bit better bang to buck; naturally this is to be expected as Sundown is a dealer based line and SI is a direct to public line. The SI HT units are also designed specifically for HT rather than simply "also working" in HT.

- Jacob Fuller
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