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post #31 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

My point was extreme but why can't you understand the pertinence with my post. I was exactly the person that had an Ultra and just recently build 6 SI's. Your above post further impresses upon the fact that they perform equally for less. (See continued response below that SQ isn't just related to driver alone but FR as well).

It's funny you mention six times the price for the wood. So let's use your math. Let's see here; a single Ultra requires one sheet of 3/4" MDF, and my six required 6 sheets. That's $48.00 compared to $288.00. So I spend $240.00 more so far. (I'm going to bypass your time estimation as I built 2 cabs and it didn't take me 6x as long). My six SI's were around $1050.00ish shipped. So now I've spent $200.00 more on drivers, using the current Ultra pricing, which is less than it was when I ordered my SI's. Now let's figure $550.00 for dual EP4000's compared to 1700.00 for dual clones for the Ultra (one will inevitably grenade requiring you to purchase a second biggrin.gif).

I have now built a much better setup for over $700.00 less than the Ultra. smile.gif

On a serious note, most everyone on this forum has more than one subwoofer. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that most have more than four. So why isn't a six to one a valid argument? Also take into consideration that I have a much, much better chance at smoothing out room response with a multi setup approach. wink.gif If you have money to burn and are extremely limited on space, and don't care about a great FR, then sure, the Ultra is a great driver. But for the majority of us, it makes much better sense going other directions.

Lol. You missed the whole point.

Yeah six will give a better FR across the seats but there really are a LOT of people that don't have space for 6 rather large enclosures and then only to match that or better one enclosure by a small margin. That's nonsense to compare man!

Why will clones grenade. I've yet to take cover and pretty sure many others haven't either. A clone that arrives in working order seems to stay working, at least enough that the owner doesn't even worry about it. So adding double $850 more for amp to get your conclusion just shows you want to argue. Popa just got an extra board with his order for $100 or so. And that wasn't needed, yet wink.gif

Point is SI drivers are good for their price and have trade offs. If want to double or triple the amount of drivers to match some of the more heavy hitters to save a little money but take up more space then go for it. Everyone has their own needs/goals/restrictions, and I'm sure these are perfect for some of them.
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post #32 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 12:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

How about 8 x FTW-21 and 8 x LMS-5400?
How big of a room would you need to not die from head explosion (implosion from SPL?) with this setup?

I was thinking 24 LMS's and 12 Lap clones. j/k. The LMS's are not really a option for me. I have plenty of space and there are much better options out there that are a better bang for your buck. They are amazing drivers, just not options for me.

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post #33 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by auburnu008 View Post

I was thinking 24 LMS's and 12 Lap clones. j/k. The LMS's are not really a option for me. I have plenty of space and there are much better options out there that are a better bang for your buck. They are amazing drivers, just not options for me.

I'd like just 3 lms for the LCRS and about 24-50 of the SI spread throughout the ceiling and side/back walls to match my front wall. All powered by clones except the LCRs which will stick with the qscs.

I'm ready for Scott to actually start a thread whether it is dead or not way can start incouraging me to upgrade my mains. That's another thing you're going to need to plan RIGHT the first time with a build like yours. That front wall will be a heavy mess trying to change mains. Are you going AT screen and baffle wall?
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post #34 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 07:02 AM
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My only issue is that saying quality over quantity infers that the SI drivers are low quality. They are not.

I remember the thread about those drivers blowing on you. Were they sent back to SI to figure out what happened? There are plenty of people on here pushing twice that amount with them with no issues. I have two bridged ep4000's pushing four of them and I have not had any issues.

Honestly, hearing that makes me less interested in the 21's because it comes off as mudslinging.

Anyway. Either option is completely insane so pick whichever one you like best.

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post #35 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 07:50 AM
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Let me see if I understand this.

SIXTEEN of these cabinets in a 400 sq foot room.



Surely 4 of these would fill a room that size with all the output and extension you'll ever need.


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post #36 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 07:57 AM
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Yeah. 4000 cubic ft. There's over kill, then there is WTH? What kind of mains could you have closer to you than 20ft that could possibly necessitate (if that's even the right word here) 24 x 18" or 16 x 21" drivers in a room that size? Lol

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post #37 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 08:08 AM
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It just seems like such a waste of time, money, and materials to me, sorry. I'm hoping it's not the case, but these threads just seem more and more like cab/driver one-upsmanship to me and less about putting good, dynamic bass in a room. Someone goes with 4 cabs. Then someone counters with 8. Then 16. Then 32. All the while you're doubling material, space, and expense for a gain of ~THREE decibels. When does it end?

I simply cannot imagine 16 of my cabs in my room, lmao.

But none of it matters...to the OP: good luck with your build. One man is no better or worse than another because he has a different opinion. They're just that: opinions.

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post #38 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 08:14 AM
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If you have the cash to spend, go for it. Just don't tell me your speakers are a Energy Take Classic set!!!!!

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post #39 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 08:20 AM
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Building a system with 16x21" drivers would be like buying 2 cars instead of one. 8 of the 21s will stay in the garage. You just don't need them.

notnyt has just under 70 liters of displacement in 6000 cubes. He's flat to 7 Hz and can run +15dB hot over reference with no runs, drips or errors. He doesn't blather on about how good it sounds to him. Rather, he provided accurate and detailed data on its performance in his room from where he sits. (And, BTW, he ain't usin' no Behringer amps). 16xFTW-21 is 180 liters of displacement... does anyone really need to wonder about this?

What would be interesting would be, if anyone builds a system using 16x21" drivers, that they run the system at reference level after proper calibration, etc., using 8 of the drivers in their best placements, etc. Then, run the whole 16 drivers and show the improvement.

System is the key word. I've tested 8x15" vs 16x15", but I included comparisons with different amplifiers, 20A vs 30A outlets, different L/T curves, placement options and the comparisons were made using actual and extreme soundtrack scenes captured at the same LP through Spectrumlab, after which the area of concern was zoomed and analyzed for any differences.

Also, BTW, to everyone in general... N8 likes Mach5. What's not to like? Get over it. Please make a case for SI (or any other drivers) SQ with some data? "I think they sound great vs my 'x' other subs" is pretty weak. Do you have FRs of other subs vs the SIs in your room, peak hold data, Mic'd SpecLab caps, peak meter readings of scenes or anything that might back your opinions? If not, then it's a standoff, in which case N8 has as much right as anyone else to offer his opinion on driver vendors.

And, pleeeease with the EP4000 or NU60,000,000 or whatever low end pro amp vs the FP14000 clone. Arrrgh. You might as well make a thread about 3" drivers vs the LMS Ultra.

The FTW-21 is around $40/liter of displacement. The SI-18 is around $35/liter of displacement. Not a big difference in the scheme of things. 8x21" gives 90 liters, give or take. You need 18xSI-18 to match that. So, if you propose to use 16 of the FTW-21, you'd need 34 of the SI-18s to equal the displacement potential. In both cases you're wasting a good bit of money, effort and listening space volume.

The big difference will be in matching power to displacement with signal shaping to properly mate the native response with the rooms response, taking care to insure your signal chain integrity matches your bandwidth goal and setting the system up to perform optimally.
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post #40 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

What would be interesting would be, if anyone builds a system using 16x21" drivers, that they run the system at reference level after proper calibration, etc., using 8 of the drivers in their best placements, etc. Then, run the whole 16 drivers and show the improvement.

Thats why I suggested the Double Bass Array...He will have more than enough displacement to make up for the lost room "gain" and then get the no-room-mode benefit for the usual worrisome frequencies. win-win. In theory at least. Also would like someone to test the theory of getting the "gain" back by adjusting the phase for the typical "gain" frequencies.
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post #41 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 10:56 AM
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Lol. You missed the whole point.

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post #42 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Yeah six will give a better FR across the seats but there really are a LOT of people that don't have space for 6 rather large enclosures and then only to match that or better one enclosure by a small margin. That's nonsense to compare man!

Point is SI drivers are good for their price and have trade offs. If want to double or triple the amount of drivers to match some of the more heavy hitters to save a little money but take up more space then go for it. Everyone has their own needs/goals/restrictions, and I'm sure these are perfect for some of them.

+1 I always wonder why the amount of space required for 8, 16, or 24 cabinets is often overlooked or somewhat dismissed, if you will. Just an observation.

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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

My only issue is that saying quality over quantity infers that the SI drivers are low quality. They are not.
I dont think N8 was implying the SI's are low quality, just that the FTW's are of higher quality. IMO, both types of drivers have their place. smile.gif
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post #43 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The big difference will be in matching power to displacement with signal shaping to properly mate the native response with the rooms response, taking care to insure your signal chain integrity matches your bandwidth goal and setting the system up to perform optimally.

Sorry for the OT here...

Other than make sure I am not clipping the input or output on my minidsp, how do I check for this? I can clip the minidsp output signal, but only when I have the master volume 10dbs above reference running the sub out on my receiver 10+ hot using a 20hz test tone. I tested this with the sub amp off and the speakers disconnected so I wouldn't hurt anything as per advised by mrsmithers.

Could I still be clipping the signal at the subwoofer out on the receiver or on the amp? I use -10 on my receiver (volume goes from -12 to +12 for the subwoofer) as a baseline and usually keep it between that and -6. Occasionally I might bump it up a little higher, but never higher than 0.
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post #44 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

IMO, both types of drivers have their place. smile.gif

Exactly. If I could have done 4 FTW's for the same price as I did my 8 SI's it would have made the decision more difficult - although at the time I bought the SI's there was no decision to be made since the FTW's were not in stock.


I do have space up front for 4 more subs, so who knows maybe someday I'll get some 21's. biggrin.gif My room is pretty brutal and drops off terribly in the low end so if I want to be flat to 5hz I would have to. Currently I'm flat to 10 hz. Hmm, not sure at what levels though, I assume above reference. How do you go about testing that? A frequency sweep? We've talked about that before, a sweep at high volumes is pretty scary so I would hate to have to do that.
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post #45 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

I dont think N8 was implying the SI's are low quality, just that the FTW's are of higher quality. IMO, both types of drivers have their place. smile.gif

We both know that but then what would anyone argue about? LOL I've never said the SI's were cheaply made, I said they are "cheap" compared to other subs, which they are. There is a reason they are the price they are. They are decent enough, When I blew my first 2 SI's, I was going to send them back, then I was going to re-cone them, then I just threw them in the garbage. The cost to ship them back or fix myself was not worth the effort. My next 2 I just sold to a guy at work as I replaced the blown ones with Daytons anyways.

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post #46 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 04:47 PM
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I personally like the LMS-18 over my 21's. As I've stated more than once. Hence the reason behind my recent obtainment of quad LMS's).
But the difference between them is very small almost to the point of splitting hairs; but it is more obvious in smaller boxes (i.e. less than 8cuft).
Which is pretty impressive given the price difference, but I still prefer the build quality of the LMS.

Heck if your lucky, I may even post a REW sweep in the next two weeks, of a pair of each verses each other, powered by a clone.

Chances are I'd be happy with 8 of either. (A theory yet to be proven.)

I have room for 12 of any of them, room is not a factor, however I do like the compactness of not needing more than 8cubes, such as RE-18's.
If I was smart I'd probably go IB, but I'll continue to sit of the fence over that.

As for the SI's, never tried 'em and probably never will/want to. (I don't have time to bleed. hehe biggrin.gif)
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post #47 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Sorry for the OT here...

Other than make sure I am not clipping the input or output on my minidsp, how do I check for this? I can clip the minidsp output signal, but only when I have the master volume 10dbs above reference running the sub out on my receiver 10+ hot using a 20hz test tone. I tested this with the sub amp off and the speakers disconnected so I wouldn't hurt anything as per advised by mrsmithers.

Could I still be clipping the signal at the subwoofer out on the receiver or on the amp? I use -10 on my receiver (volume goes from -12 to +12 for the subwoofer) as a baseline and usually keep it between that and -6. Occasionally I might bump it up a little higher, but never higher than 0.

As I mentioned in another thread, most amps have a global sensitivity, so, you have to work with whatever that is.

For example, if your amps sensitivity is 2V and your AVR==>MiniDSP is delivering 10V, the gain attenuation knobs on the amps front panel will be almost off to get full power from the amp.

You could build an attenuator before the amp, but that can lead to a raised noise floor. Either way, you have to measure the signal voltage from the MiniDSP output in a worse-case scenario of your playback level using actual source that you'll be playing through your system.

I've measured 2V from my Onk AVR playing soundtracks, as an average, but when I play the demo scenes from WOTW and HTTYD, it jumps to 5-7V. When I send that signal through my L/T with +10dB of boost, it jumps to 10V.

The clones have gain limit dip switch settings and Voltage Peak Limit dip switch settings. Between the 2, I can dial in a sensitivity that gives a good gain match and sees the voltage peak limiter kick in only momentarily and only during those scenes when at reference levels or above.

The trouble with consumer gear and hardware like the MiniDSP is that you have no idea what signal it's delivering or if it's clipped. You just have to measure it and hope your amps sensitivity and gain attenuator knobs can be dialed in to keep you in a safe range.
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post #48 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 11:44 PM
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I personally like the LMS-18 over my 21's. As I've stated more than once. Hence the reason behind my recent obtainment of quad LMS's).
But the difference between them is very small almost to the point of splitting hairs; but it is more obvious in smaller boxes (i.e. less than 8cuft).
Which is pretty impressive given the price difference, but I still prefer the build quality of the LMS.

Heck if your lucky, I may even post a REW sweep in the next two weeks, of a pair of each verses each other, powered by a clone.

Chances are I'd be happy with 8 of either. (A theory yet to be proven.)

I have room for 12 of any of them, room is not a factor, however I do like the compactness of not needing more than 8cubes, such as RE-18's.
If I was smart I'd probably go IB, but I'll continue to sit of the fence over that.

As for the SI's, never tried 'em and probably never will/want to. (I don't have time to bleed. hehe biggrin.gif)

I'd agree in that the LMS is one extremely well build driver. I loved my 2 when I had them. I'd say IMO the Re XXX is on par with the LMS u for sure. Good quality parts.
My biggest factor for not building with LMS's was the fact they were over $1200 each by the time I paid for shipping and taxes. yuckers!

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post #49 of 55 Old 04-12-2013, 11:59 PM
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I'd agree in that the LMS is one extremely well build driver. I loved my 2 when I had them. I'd say IMO the Re XXX is on par with the LMS u for sure. Good quality parts.
My biggest factor for not building with LMS's was the fact they were over $1200 each by the time I paid for shipping and taxes. yuckers!

You must envy us then. $850 with free shipping and no tax. =P
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post #50 of 55 Old 04-13-2013, 10:13 AM
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You must envy us then. $850 with free shipping and no tax. =P

I do! Shipping is usually so cheap for you guys. I buy a lot of stuff from the US. At least Mach 5 is in my area, it's nice to be able to see the parts used and know how much time and effort goes into making the drivers. At least for us Canadians, Mach 5 will always be one of our best options but the FTW with it's $50 shipping is nuts!!! Mark is taking a real hit selling the drivers so cheap as well as cheap shipping. I hope guys realize he really is loosing money shipping that cheap, I know for a fact it could be almost double that to ship to the US in the southern states as I do it all the time with car parts.
I've got 14 drivers in storage but I REALLY want to grab another 6 FTW just to have for future projects.
I did get this pic today :

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post #51 of 55 Old 04-13-2013, 11:01 AM
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Is this home built and a new HT, or you can design the HT and basement still?

If so, I'd go IB array baffle front wall like JapanDave and get the boxes outta the HT for a more cleaner look, and you can go as low as you'd need to also.
Your IB chamber could be designed to contain the backwave from going to the rest of the home, and you could go with engineered foundation front wall and have them custom make your IB cut outs in their molds.
Stiff, no in plane flex, you could even design the engineered foundation wall to tie into the backchamber back wall to make sure no in plane flex.

Then, if needed for whatever seat-seat variation still exists you could selectively add some 21"'s to help flatten the freq resp if needed.....
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post #52 of 55 Old 04-15-2013, 08:42 AM
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post #53 of 55 Old 04-15-2013, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

I'm not talking specifically mach 5, any quality driver. TC, Exodus, JBL as well as countless others. You say to stay non bias but are recommending the SI's will sound just as good, which you have........ and I'm recommending the 21's, which I have...... Problem?
And I've built with the SI's already, 4 in fact for customers. The first 2 did not turn out well, both drivers went up in smoke with 500 watt plate amps, I replaced them with daytons, there was a whole thread about it. You can have any sub you want but just because you don't think it's a valid reason to go with higher quality drivers, doesn't mean it's not. How bout you ask anyone with high quality drivers what they think about the subject? you'll get the same response as I had.
I'm speaking from experience, though I may not have as much as Ricci, Bosso, Scott and a bunch of other guys, I've still had well over 100 subs and built over 60 builds. I have drawn my own conclusions from my experience and I stand buy it 100%.

So you burnt up two 600 watt rated drivers with two 500 watt plate amps with no clear data regarding signal claritiy and yet you "stand by it 100%" but you don't question why they burnt up? Seems to me you're the only one who has burnt up our coils with less than rated power (and IIRC a different brand subwoofer exhibited the same bad sonic qualities in the same setup before you turned it down to save the woofers). Higher quality and higher power handling can be/are two different things. If your main goal is soaking up excess power there are a plethora of drivers available besides the SI HT woofers if you absolutely must send either more than rated power (or a clipped signal, or both) to your subwoofers to be happy.
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post #54 of 55 Old 04-16-2013, 01:29 PM
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I'm speaking from experience, though I may not have as much as Ricci, Bosso, Scott and a bunch of other guys, I've still had well over 100 subs and built over 60 builds. I have drawn my own conclusions from my experience and I stand buy it 100%.

100 subs and 60 builds? holy cow man!!!
I've only had 5 builds, with a total woodworking sum of 20 woofer baffles made.

Where do you get the energy and money from? eek.gif
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post #55 of 55 Old 04-16-2013, 01:38 PM
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No i dont have any data because i was just testing them out. i free air'd them, they were fine. Put in the driver, put on my test song "scary xmas" and play them like ive done to every single driver ive ever tested. I Sure they could have been faulty, the coils were completely unwound. Theres already been the argument that clipping couldnt have had anything to do with it, maybe/maybe not. The daytons 18 ho's took the exact same test at the same volume. i did turn down the first set of daytons as it sounded like they were reaching their xmax but have since done it again and they were fine.

My main goal was to test them and get the guy to come pick them up, nothing more that that. i have no intrest in them or the daytons in my own system. Its be said you will be making higher end versions, that i may be interested in.
End of the day, whether you believe me or not is moot. although it does look a bit fishy since i have no data, it is what it is. Ive experienced all typed or good and bad drivers and will recommend what i like, just like everyone else.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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