Scanspeak B741 build - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 99 Old 08-08-2014, 12:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chalugadp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 4,416
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 614 Post(s)
Liked: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnycamp5 View Post
Right........... Or 200 watts instead of 20.

And?
Do you know how power works ????
Obviously not if you think that listening to music at 80dbs takes 200 watts. It takes 5 watts .

If he said he listens at 100 db's then yes he would need a lot of power. And you use high end cables cause they sound better. Oh and the woofer takes 50 hours to open up and breathe. More myths.
chalugadp is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 99 Old 08-08-2014, 01:58 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Woodbridge, NJ- USA
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Do you know how power works ????
Obviously not if you think that listening to music at 80dbs takes 200 watts. It takes 5 watts .

If he said he listens at 100 db's then yes he would need a lot of power. And you use high end cables cause they sound better. Oh and the woofer takes 50 hours to open up and breathe. More myths.
??????????? Sorry to derail your thread Dragon666.

Please keep us posted on any exiting news with your system and speakers!
I will let you know how I like my B741's as well.

Regards!
johnnycamp5 is online now  
post #93 of 99 Old 08-09-2014, 01:25 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Do you know how power works ????
Obviously not if you think that listening to music at 80dbs takes 200 watts. It takes 5 watts .


If he said he listens at 100 db's then yes he would need a lot of power. And you use high end cables cause they sound better. Oh and the woofer takes 50 hours to open up and breathe. More myths.
Do you? you make 0 sense, what did johnny say that deserves you getting personal with your condescension?? I'm not even an expert, but i know enough to say you're 100% wrong about rig burn/breakin being a myth, and cables, shielding, conductor capacitance and impedance make audible diffs as well. Your other ambiguous and arbitrary claims make no sense contextually.... "80db takes 5 watts"? It's colder in the summer than it is in the country....hope that helps..
If you decide to clarify and drop your wisdom on us great! but be respectful please. I will contact my personal friend and neighbor Jim Williams, and ask him if he would be so kind as to come in and lay out a paragraph on the importance, and inequity of audio reproduction pertaining to power amps of different designs/classes.

To OP/Johnny, I will say ime, amps matter, some rigs require more current/power to operate optimally, to suggest that any old amp/watts is good enough is simply obtuse?
I remember in 93 the first time i heard the switch from a "hi wattage" consumer level power amp, to a high current class A amp driving some big room JBL's, it was during a pro recording studio build, we were listening to music for weeks while we were working, and then it came time to hook in the interim amp(it was a GFA555), when the music was turned back on, everyone stopped what they were doing and looked at each other with the expressions of "holy s@#t! The reaction was unprompted, and unexpected, the music wasn't any louder, it was punchier, and sounded as if the blankets were removed from covering the monitors, it was about as true of an A/B test i've ever witnessed. The only thing that changed was the AMP, It sounded astonishingly better, you'd have had to have rocks in your ears not to hear that diff.

congrats on those builds!
Reactoriot is offline  
post #94 of 99 Old 08-09-2014, 01:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chalugadp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 4,416
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 614 Post(s)
Liked: 872
Your speaker is 92 db sensative.
Here is a review here
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php/...1-loudspeakers

With reviewer using 100 watts


Here is power calculator
http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

At 80dbs

So my mistake , 2 watts instead of 5.

If you crank it to 90 db's


Yes you need headroom. But 20 watts used leaved 180 watts in reserve with 200 Watt amp.

If you feel cables make a difference then your in the extreme minority on avs. You have a beautiful pair of speakers that you enjoy a lot. Imo they will sound exactly the same to people blindfolded with a capable 100 watt amp.
chalugadp is online now  
post #95 of 99 Old 08-09-2014, 03:49 PM
Member
 
ghostnotes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by exoplasm View Post


Hi, dont mean to thread jack you/ just wonted to post some pictures of my B741's i gor from pbn. I made a pair of sealed subwoofers to accompany them and the sound amazing together. The Subs are 32w4578t00 with dayton 2 cubic foot cabinets, and the 1000watt dayton amplifiers. I Added a top to bottem brace and dynomatted them. I also build a wood enclosure for the amp instead of the flimsy plastic ones they came with. The one thing i didnt like was the front baffle only has 4 bolts so i peminatly affixed them with glue and additional brackets from the back. I really like the B741 speakers they are very detailed but not harsh, very open sound stage, very life like especially with good quality vocal recordings. I was considering building them myself and i wrote peter a few email inquires for details and ended up just buying them from him. Im glad i did as i dont think my finish would have been as nice as yours. Im very impressed with the effort you put into them and how nice they came out.
I almost pulled the trigger on these but am going with the Jenzen Illuminators http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Jenzen-Illuminator.htm. But alas i am going to cheat. Simply because i have terrible woodworking skills nor the tools or equipment to do so....sadly. But my Autocad skills are EXCELLENT thank goodness.

Should be ready to order in 2 months or so after i return home.
ghostnotes is offline  
post #96 of 99 Old 08-09-2014, 05:44 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Your speaker is 92 db sensative.
Here is a review here
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php/...1-loudspeakers

With reviewer using 100 watts


Here is power calculator
http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

At 80dbs

So my mistake , 2 watts instead of 5.

If you crank it to 90 db's


Yes you need headroom. But 20 watts used leaved 180 watts in reserve with 200 Watt amp.

If you feel cables make a difference then your in the extreme minority on avs. You have a beautiful pair of speakers that you enjoy a lot. Imo they will sound exactly the same to people blindfolded with a capable 100 watt amp.
Dude you have 4000+ posts in a year? If you think power amps don't make a difference, maybe you need to put down the keyboard and do a little ear training and testing? Power amps do NOT all sound the same, some amps with almost identical builds and power specs can sound WAY different from one another! You are simply reaffirming your "read" world belief by reaching for conformation straws. You answered my last post with graphs and biased/attitude laden opinion clips? Your blanket use of the word "watts" is ridiculous. In the real world, hi fi rigs generally require big current, a myopic focus on the word "watts" without applying context as related to a system is useless. Bass and transient spikes can require instant and incredibly large amounts of power at any spl, how much is completely contingent on loudspeaker design, ohm load etc, and not just any "2 watt" amp can deliver that 8)
As far as blind internet testing? that is mostly useless IMO, it is inherently subject to unverified and whimsical hyperbole and conjecture, IME you have to live with gear to wrap your head around it in any real way, to subject yourself to an unfamiliar environment, on strange(to yourself) equipment is a foolish thing to partake in IMO.
I'm an audio engineer, people pay me for my (honest) intimate knowledge of MY OWN gear, and to know the difference between good and better sound. If you think because some chart says 2 items have the same amount of "power", they will sound the same? you're simply wrong and wildly inexperienced. I can't speak for the AV world, but In the pro audio world, a great end result is contingent on the accumulation of a 1000 small things, if you are incapable of hearing the subtle differences in these things? it may be time to trade up on that "2 watt" power amp, or try a new sport all together?
Reactoriot is offline  
post #97 of 99 Old 08-10-2014, 04:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reactoriot View Post
Dude you have 4000+ posts in a year? If you think power amps don't make a difference, maybe you need to put down the keyboard and do a little ear training and testing? Power amps do NOT all sound the same, some amps with almost identical builds and power specs can sound WAY different from one another! You are simply reaffirming your "read" world belief by reaching for conformation straws. You answered my last post with graphs and biased/attitude laden opinion clips? Your blanket use of the word "watts" is ridiculous. In the real world, hi fi rigs generally require big current, a myopic focus on the word "watts" without applying context as related to a system is useless. Bass and transient spikes can require instant and incredibly large amounts of power at any spl, how much is completely contingent on loudspeaker design, ohm load etc, and not just any "2 watt" amp can deliver that 8)
As far as blind internet testing? that is mostly useless IMO, it is inherently subject to unverified and whimsical hyperbole and conjecture, IME you have to live with gear to wrap your head around it in any real way, to subject yourself to an unfamiliar environment, on strange(to yourself) equipment is a foolish thing to partake in IMO.
I'm an audio engineer, people pay me for my (honest) intimate knowledge of MY OWN gear, and to know the difference between good and better sound. If you think because some chart says 2 items have the same amount of "power", they will sound the same? you're simply wrong and wildly inexperienced. I can't speak for the AV world, but In the pro audio world, a great end result is contingent on the accumulation of a 1000 small things, if you are incapable of hearing the subtle differences in these things? it may be time to trade up on that "2 watt" power amp, or try a new sport all together?

With all due respect sir, comparing the pro-audio world to the consumer based "HiFi" world is kind of an apples to oranges comparison. In the pro-audio realm there are many different pieces of equipment that are in the signal chain at any given time. Engineers are manipulating various elements of the recordings and modifying the musical tracks for many various reasons. In the consumer based "HiFi" realm, all we have to do is play bank the track that has already undergone the mixing and mastering stages. I am not the best at explaining what is going through my head, I just want to say that this:

Last year some buddies and myself decided we were going to do a blind amplifier comparison at my buddy Shawn's HIFI store. We did this after hours and between my buddy Shawn's McIntosh (monster $10,000 monoblocks!) , my buddy Don's Parasound Halo (can't remember the model) and my Behringer iNuke amplifiers. We had another guy do the switching who was not involved in the test. We had Shawn, Don, myself and several of his installers all sitting in the listening section. It was the equivalent of a somewhat scientific double blind test. We put money down on this test. Shawn said that he could easily pick the McIntosh, and Don and I were of the opinion that he could not.

Now I am not going to wade through all of the fine details, but just want to say that these were all level matched, and a/b tested with the amplifiers being behind us so that we could not see.

Bottom line results were that no one could pick the McIntosh from the iNuke, nor the Parasound.
Martycool007 is offline  
post #98 of 99 Old 08-10-2014, 10:01 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Woodbridge, NJ- USA
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post
With all due respect sir, comparing the pro-audio world to the consumer based "HiFi" world is kind of an apples to oranges comparison. In the pro-audio realm there are many different pieces of equipment that are in the signal chain at any given time. Engineers are manipulating various elements of the recordings and modifying the musical tracks for many various reasons. In the consumer based "HiFi" realm, all we have to do is play bank the track that has already undergone the mixing and mastering stages. I am not the best at explaining what is going through my head, I just want to say that this:

Last year some buddies and myself decided we were going to do a blind amplifier comparison at my buddy Shawn's HIFI store. We did this after hours and between my buddy Shawn's McIntosh (monster $10,000 monoblocks!) , my buddy Don's Parasound Halo (can't remember the model) and my Behringer iNuke amplifiers. We had another guy do the switching who was not involved in the test. We had Shawn, Don, myself and several of his installers all sitting in the listening section. It was the equivalent of a somewhat scientific double blind test. We put money down on this test. Shawn said that he could easily pick the McIntosh, and Don and I were of the opinion that he could not.

Now I am not going to wade through all of the fine details, but just want to say that these were all level matched, and a/b tested with the amplifiers being behind us so that we could not see.

Bottom line results were that no one could pick the McIntosh from the iNuke, nor the Parasound.
If we want to converse like adults, we should first agree that if one is to compare amplifiers of equal output in a "blind test", lets concede that we're not talking/comparing "loudness" or "watts", but instead comparing overall sound quality.
If the test is done systematically (as any test should), the results will be conclusive.
If the test is done in a nonsensical manner (different pieces of music at different volumes, randomly switching amplifiers), then the results will also be nonsensical and inconclusive, as there will be no possible way of making a comparison.

Often used, common sense measures in amplifier comparisons, (which I'm sure your engineer used in order to make this test worthy of quoting) are-

1- Use only one audio sample (song or piece of music).

2- Keep this sample at the same volume throughout the testing.

3- Swap the amps at least 6 times, in the same order-
1'st time- McIntosh, Parasound, Behringer.The listeners mark down which one they thought sounded best.
2'nd time- McIntosh, Parasound, Behringer. The listeners mark down which one they thought sounded best.

4- Perhaps run the test a third time.

For the test to be conclusive, the listeners should know that the amplifiers are in the same order each time (so that a comparison can be made).
Obviously, the listeners should not know which amp is being played, or in what order.
If you run through the test this way, I'm really not sure why it would be that difficult to tell which amp you like best/sounds the best.

Regards!
johnnycamp5 is online now  
post #99 of 99 Old 08-10-2014, 11:09 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Marty and Johnny, for clarity, are we talking Hifi here? Major hifi results are achieved in small increments, starting with you room through epuipment imo
Johnny, right on, context is EVERYTHING, the content you listen to matters BIG TIME, i do all my critical listening and testing with the same 96k/24bit acoustic guitar/bass file that is beautifully recorded, full range with a thumpy low end and slow decaying, harmonically rich high frequencies and reverb tails. I also test microphones with the same consistent methods over and over, my room is acoustically very accurate.
chalugadp's video idea of a shoot out is nothing short of laughably unscientific, from content to methodology...or lack there of?? he says at the end of his video recorded through an iphone?! "any questions?" yeah, what is the point of that video?
Marty, IMO, doing blind tests outside of your own environment is not useful, you should inevitably gain a familiarity of your own situation, your monitors, your listening position within your own space. You can NEVER replicate this familiarity walking into a hi fi store, When you achieve the familiarity mentioned above, then and only then, does introducing elements that change your personal listening environment, create any contextual value. If at that point you can't hear a diff? more power to you, save a bunch of $ and be happy 8)

that said, with all due respect, the day i can't hear the diff between a behringer and a McIntosh is the day i hang up the headphones 8)
Reactoriot is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off