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post #361 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post


It takes 2 x Si18s to equal 1 x UXL. you dont just add up xmax from all the drivers.

In what regard? Under what circumstances?

Not to split hairs, but the D-B measurements indicate dual SI's should consistently have a 2-3db advantage over a single UXL across the board. Assuming the second SI receives the same amount of power...

Or am I missing something?

 

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post #362 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

In what regard? Under what circumstances?

Not to split hairs, but the D-B measurements indicate dual SI's should consistently have a 2-3db advantage over a single UXL across the board. Assuming the second SI receives the same amount of power...

Or am I missing something?

Using the same power on both. it was dicussed already in that other thread when we were talking about he exact same thing... It mat have been the regular SI thread? I cant remember. The one where Ricci and bosso came in and taked about the tests he did.

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post #363 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 01:28 PM
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I just did a test since I have both the FTW21's and the SI18's
Here's my Measured results

BLUE is 2x FTW21's in the back corner driven by a clone at 8ohm load so 4200W
GREEN is 4x SI18's in the back driven by a clone at 4 ohm load so 5000W
RED is all the subs on

Regards,


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post #364 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 01:37 PM
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That's some great summing of the two different systems. Are they all bunched together by chance?

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post #365 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

That's some great summing of the two different systems. Are they all bunched together by chance?

Beast,

The 2x FTW21's are in the corner in the back
2 of the 4 SI18 sit on top of the FTW21's in the corner and the other 2 SI's are in the back also but 1/4 distance of the corners.

Hope that makes sense?


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post #366 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 02:07 PM
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Cripes, is that really good down to 6hz?
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post #367 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

I just did a test since I have both the FTW21's and the SI18's
Here's my Measured results

BLUE is 2x FTW21's in the back corner driven by a clone at 8ohm load so 4200W
GREEN is 4x SI18's in the back driven by a clone at 4 ohm load so 5000W
RED is all the subs on

Regards,


Thanks for posting this. Is this with Audyssey or any other kind of EQ? If so would you mind posting a comparison without eq sometime? I'm curious because I always assumed that the FTW's would have a low end advantage over the SI's so I'm wondering if the SI's are boosted down low more than the FTW's.


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post #368 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

I just did a test since I have both the FTW21's and the SI18's
Here's my Measured results

BLUE is 2x FTW21's in the back corner driven by a clone at 8ohm load so 4200W
GREEN is 4x SI18's in the back driven by a clone at 4 ohm load so 5000W
RED is all the subs on

Regards,

Nnniiiiiiccceee! smile.gif


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post #369 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Thanks for posting this. Is this with Audyssey or any other kind of EQ? If so would you mind posting a comparison without eq sometime? I'm curious because I always assumed that the FTW's would have a low end advantage over the SI's so I'm wondering if the SI's are boosted down low more than the FTW's.

You can boost the SI's all you want, the 21's will always have an advantage below 20hz. There has to be something going on. Even the UXL vs the FTW show an decent advantage to the FTW under 20hz.

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post #370 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Thanks for posting this. Is this with Audyssey or any other kind of EQ? If so would you mind posting a comparison without eq sometime? I'm curious because I always assumed that the FTW's would have a low end advantage over the SI's so I'm wondering if the SI's are boosted down low more than the FTW's.

Here you go carp...

Reset MiniDSP EQ

NO EQ!
I did 2 and 4 subs results on the SI18's to compare even further

BLUE is 2x FTW21's in the back corner driven by a clone at 8ohm load so 4200W
GREEN is 4x SI18's in the back driven by a clone at 4 ohm load so 5000W
RED is 2x SI18's in the back driven by a clone at 2 ohm load so 2500W


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post #371 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Here you go carp...

Reset MiniDSP EQ

NO EQ!
I did 2 and 4 subs results on the SI18's to compare even further

BLUE is 2x FTW21's in the back corner driven by a clone at 8ohm load so 4200W
GREEN is 4x SI18's in the back driven by a clone at 4 ohm load so 5000W
RED is 2x SI18's in the back driven by a clone at 2 ohm load so 2500W


Thanks for doing that.

Hmmm what the hell? I wonder why the SI's have the same low end as the FTW's? I guess it must be where the subs are placed in the room?

Is the red line the SI's that are stacked on top of the FTW's? If that's the case then they would be on equal footing and it wouldn't be a room thing right?


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post #372 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 03:43 PM
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A 2 db advantage at 15hz comparing 2 FTW's to 2 SI 18's? confused.gif


I'm curious because eventually I want to get some more drivers that will give me the most bang for the buck under 25hz. The FTW's are obviously a candidate for that.


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post #373 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 03:50 PM
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Fatshaft, how are you getting 4200watts @ 8 ohms on the FTW's? it has to be a room thing, The FTW's and the SI's shouldn't be even close and in every case but this one, they perform as expected.

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post #374 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Fatshaft, how are you getting 4200watts @ 8 ohms on the FTW's? it has to be a room thing, The FTW's and the SI's shouldn't be even close and in every case but this one, they perform as expected.

Two channels from a 10kQ Sanway bridged will net 4,200w @ 8ohms.


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post #375 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Two channels from a 10kQ Sanway bridged will net 4,200w @ 8ohms.

ahh ok, I though he had the 14's and was thinking WTF lol

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post #376 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 04:43 PM
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Wouldn't the extension between the FTW21 and SI18 be similar depending on the box, but the 21s would be able to make more SPL at ULF? I'm not sure we'd see a big native response difference, unless the FTW21s had a huge box.
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post #377 of 870 Old 11-19-2013, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Wouldn't the extension between the FTW21 and SI18 be similar depending on the box, but the 21s would be able to make more SPL at ULF? I'm not sure we'd see a big native response difference, unless the FTW21s had a huge box.


So you're saying it's time for fatshaft to do compression sweeps? smile.gif

I hate doing that.... It scares me. eek.gif


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post #378 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 05:49 AM
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I'll be doing more tests this weekend (when I have more time) and post more results.
I'm a little p!ssed off seeing the results cause N8 says I should be getting more output from my 21's.
I need to know why I'm not!

Maybe my 21 cabs are too small? Should they be bigger?

Carp,
Yes the red line is the 2 SI18's that are on top of the 21's in the corner
Also carp, I don't know what compression sweeps are...sorry

What I'll be trying this weekend is doing sweeps louder and see if anything changes.
Is it even safe to do so?
I once did a sweep at -10 on my volume and thought my house would cave in. (Man was that scary)
This is the graph!!!



I've blasted MANY times the OLF monument scene at o volume and my clips lights DO NOT come on.


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post #379 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 06:12 AM
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@Fatshaft
Are your measurements SPL calibrated? 123 dB @ 7 Hz is not bad. smile.gif

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post #380 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 06:18 AM
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I have a EMM-6 from Cross Spectrum Labs.
I adjusted the calibration to match a Hand held DB meter.

I would have to say "Yes" biggrin.gif


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post #381 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 06:53 AM
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I am seriously having trouble not ordering 8 of these to put in the HT. I have looked at my screen wall, etc and could put four between the left and center speaker and four between the right and center. Everything on each side could sum at 1/4 distance on all four sides and probably have enough output with 4 cv5ks to knock my house off of the foundation. The funny thing is I have all my Daytons here, but can't help liking the idea of building 8 fewer enclosures and staring into the face of a 24" sub wall. I'm exercising real self control to wait for some results from the first set of users.


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post #382 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I am seriously having trouble not ordering 8 of these to put in the HT. I have looked at my screen wall, etc and could put four between the left and center speaker and four between the right and center. Everything on each side could sum at 1/4 distance on all four sides and probably have enough output with 4 cv5ks to knock my house off of the foundation. The funny thing is I have all my Daytons here, but can't help liking the idea of building 8 fewer enclosures and staring into the face of a 24" sub wall. I'm exercising real self control to wait for some results from the first set of users.

haha, we are all so proud of you establishing some "restraint" Why start now I might ask tho?!?! haha
Quote:
Carp,
Yes the red line is the 2 SI18's that are on top of the 21's in the corner
Also carp, I don't know what compression sweeps are...sorry

Compressions sweeps are what you have already tried, sort of. You run a sweep, capture the reponse, increase by 3-5dB's and capture again, and keep going until you see the response plot begin to "compress" in areas across the bandwidth (Graphs aren't the same dB's apart all the way across) . When you find where compression starts to affect the response, that is where you will want to stop cranking it obviously.

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post #383 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

I'll be doing more tests this weekend (when I have more time) and post more results.
I'm a little p!ssed off seeing the results cause N8 says I should be getting more output from my 21's.
I need to know why I'm not!

Maybe my 21 cabs are too small? Should they be bigger?

Carp,
Yes the red line is the 2 SI18's that are on top of the 21's in the corner
Also carp, I don't know what compression sweeps are...sorry

What I'll be trying this weekend is doing sweeps louder and see if anything changes.
Is it even safe to do so?
I once did a sweep at -10 on my volume and thought my house would cave in. (Man was that scary)
This is the graph!!!



I've blasted MANY times the OLF monument scene at o volume and my clips lights DO NOT come on.


Keep going louder and louder with your sweep as long as their is no deviation from the curve, just an increase in db's. Do it with the SI's in the corner only and then try it with the FTW's only and that should show that the SI's are crying uncle below 25 hz before the FTW's are.

It's not fun though, make sure you have ear protection and the wife is not at home!! smile.gif


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post #384 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 07:19 AM
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Brandon beat me to it... smile.gif


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post #385 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I am seriously having trouble not ordering 8 of these to put in the HT. I have looked at my screen wall, etc and could put four between the left and center speaker and four between the right and center. Everything on each side could sum at 1/4 distance on all four sides and probably have enough output with 4 cv5ks to knock my house off of the foundation. The funny thing is I have all my Daytons here, but can't help liking the idea of building 8 fewer enclosures and staring into the face of a 24" sub wall. I'm exercising real self control to wait for some results from the first set of users.

You...won't...do...it...

 

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post #386 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I am seriously having trouble not ordering 8 of these to put in the HT. I have looked at my screen wall, etc and could put four between the left and center speaker and four between the right and center. Everything on each side could sum at 1/4 distance on all four sides and probably have enough output with 4 cv5ks to knock my house off of the foundation. The funny thing is I have all my Daytons here, but can't help liking the idea of building 8 fewer enclosures and staring into the face of a 24" sub wall. I'm exercising real self control to wait for some results from the first set of users.

I am seriously trying to understand why you wouldn't pull the trigger !
Listen to pops
DO IT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

haha, we are all so proud of you establishing some "restraint" Why start now I might ask tho?!?! haha
Compressions sweeps are what you have already tried, sort of. You run a sweep, capture the reponse, increase by 3-5dB's and capture again, and keep going until you see the response plot begin to "compress" in areas across the bandwidth (Graphs aren't the same dB's apart all the way across) . When you find where compression starts to affect the response, that is where you will want to stop cranking it obviously.

Thanks beast, much appreciated

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Keep going louder and louder with your sweep as long as their is no deviation from the curve, just an increase in db's. Do it with the SI's in the corner only and then try it with the FTW's only and that should show that the SI's are crying uncle below 25 hz before the FTW's are.

It's not fun though, make sure you have ear protection and the wife is not at home!! smile.gif

Ya you aren't kidding! I was really afraid after doing that test!
My fronts made some really bad noises...I thought they had blown up or something!
It was really amazing to hear it though but not the high part of the sweep...it felt like someone but a blade in my ears!
I will be doing the sweeps with ear plugs for sure this time.

Quick question...because of what my fronts did (the noises) would it be ok to unplug my fronts and then do the sweep?
Or is it best to do a 0 -200HZ sweep instead?


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post #387 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 08:10 AM
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I am seriously trying to understand why you wouldn't pull the trigger !
Listen to pops
DO IT!
Thanks beast, much appreciated
Ya you aren't kidding! I was really afraid after doing that test!
My fronts made some really bad noises...I thought they had blown up or something!
It was really amazing to hear it though but not the high part of the sweep...it felt like someone but a blade in my ears!
I will be doing the sweeps with ear plugs for sure this time.

Quick question...because of what my fronts did (the noises) would it be ok to unplug my fronts and then do the sweep?
Or is it best to do a 0 -200HZ sweep instead?


Aw crap I forgot to tell you to turn off your mains!! eek.gif


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post #388 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

You...won't...do...it...

Dammmmmm it!!! Now I have too.

seriously though, I've come to the realization that I'm offloading some Daytons. For the price, I'll keep the couple for my living room and a back up or two, but the rest will be out the door. There are just too many other options that can surpass them now. If the theater build were already done, I'd leave em'. It's either these 24s or a quad gjallarhorn setup I think eek.gif

I'd like to see some real action on these and I have time, so although patience isn't even in the neighborhood of my strong suits, no reason not to wait and see.


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post #389 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 09:33 AM
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Oh god, I'm really in trouble.....I can fit two d/o 24" cabs on each side of the center channel, one stacked on the other, for total of 8 24s in the front. 22ft3 each cabinet, so they would net 10cubes each after bracing/drivers. so many options...the funny part is that the wood cost for these is about as much as a half dozen Daytons biggrin.gif Three sheets per cabinet whether I did d/o, side by side, tall cabs...whatever, it's still a few sheets for ever set of woofers.


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post #390 of 870 Old 11-20-2013, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Using the same power on both. it was dicussed already in that other thread when we were talking about he exact same thing... It mat have been the regular SI thread? I cant remember. The one where Ricci and bosso came in and taked about the tests he did.

We were discussing the Dayton RS vs the UXL. The Dayton RS is an approx average of 1.5dB under the SI, but it will still take 2 of the SIs to equal the UXL. Pop is making the same mistake others in the RS VS UXL discussion by adding +6dB for doubling of drivers. You add +3dB for each doubling (2, 4, 8, 16, etc) to compare drivers. And, remember, the numbers Josh has posted for all passive DIY tests were the result of using the K-10 on a 220V-50A line. That's not a likely DIY power plant/juice situation, much less adding another one for each doubling of drivers.

The UXL-18 is a world class driver. The Dayton, SA, SI, etc., are not.
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Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

I'll be doing more tests this weekend (when I have more time) and post more results.
I'm a little p!ssed off seeing the results cause N8 says I should be getting more output from my 21's.
I need to know why I'm not!

Maybe my 21 cabs are too small? Should they be bigger?

Carp,
Yes the red line is the 2 SI18's that are on top of the 21's in the corner
Also carp, I don't know what compression sweeps are...sorry

What I'll be trying this weekend is doing sweeps louder and see if anything changes.
Is it even safe to do so?
I once did a sweep at -10 on my volume and thought my house would cave in. (Man was that scary)
This is the graph!!!



I've blasted MANY times the OLF monument scene at o volume and my clips lights DO NOT come on.

Hi FS,

Certainly not as accurate as progressive sweeps, but extreme accuracy isn't necessary for this comparison.



This is assuming that there is zero compression at 7.5 Hz. This shows massive compression everywhere but below 20 Hz, and especially on the top end.

I agree with Carp… do not sine sweep your sats to that high a level. Your system is obviously extremely bottom heavy, output capability-wise (and the posted graphs show them running around +12dB hot). You don't have to turn the rest of the system off, just stop the sweeps at 100-200 Hz (an octave above cross). IMO, it's very important to include the mains in sweeps because it's critical that they are well-mated for your preferred MVL playback level.

The sweeps will show you a more accurate frequency response at the playback level you actual listen at. Hope that makes sense, LMK if it doesn't.

_________________________________

EDIT: Hey, N8, any chance you could put a bug in the right ear to get a 15" version of the UXL? 18s are cool and all but a dual opposed version is just too big for me (and most everyone I've ever talked seriously to about building a system for their spaces). cool.gif
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