Stereo Integrity 24" subwoofer - not kidding! - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 11:26 AM
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I'll admit. I didn't take the time to search AVS for this specific topic, but what the hell...

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1501114/theoretical-vs-real-world-results-expectation-managrment/0_100#post_23983027

 

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post #452 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Everyone considers winisd to be the end all. Its just not, real life data can be very different. We have lots of model guys that model everything but dont even actually use the drivers. Id bet their opinions would change pretty quick.

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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Amen to this. Glad someone finally said it.

Not sure if this was directed at me as I am one of those 'model guys'... I guess. rolleyes.gif

I do it often to help the community and others who would like to visualize what they are or want to make. I am quite confident in my models (as long as the specs provided are accurate) and they are pretty accurate. However I do have a keen ability to see through parts of them that are left out and happen in the real world. Compression, inductance effects, crossovers, etc. That all being said I am not one to run out and claim all my models as gospel or "the end all".

I don't make a lot of money and certainly can not afford to go out and test every driver we talk about here. Lol that's kind of what we simulate for. wink.gif

So idk if you meant me. I'm only trying to help ... I usually know what I'm doing around here. wink.giftongue.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #453 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 11:46 AM
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I didnt take it to be directed at anyone. Just everyone in general who uses models, ought to know the limitations of those models.

You say you're confident in your models, but how can you say that? Have you built and tested 10+ sub systems and compared them all to the model? I haven't. I have very little confidence in the models other than they give me a basic feel for the driver. Then I build it and find out what it really is made of. I'm pretty sure you're in the same boat with me. It gives you a general feel and beyond that you can't say for sure. If someone on the forum claims otherwise, they're either fooling themselves or they've directly tested hundreds of sub systems.
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post #454 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Everyone considers winisd to be the end all. Its just not, real life data can be very different. We have lots of model guys that model everything but don't even actually use the drivers. Id bet their opinions would change pretty quick.

This is absolutely one of the reasons for me to do my tests because I primarily want to know for myself!
Plus carp wants to know too!
I keep reading about real world tests...well that's what I'm trying to do!

What I do know is, whatever my tests show, they will be the results in my room!
It could be completely different in another room.
I'll never know unless I move and compare.

I would imagine that room gain/null has a lot to do with the results...but what do I know!
I seem to have room gain in the very low digits but also see that I have a null in the 20's and then room gain again in the 30's and 80's.
Maybe cause it's typical of small rooms?

If I don't hit 130DB, I'll be very disappointed! Am I asking too much?
carp likes this.
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post #455 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post


Not sure if this was directed at me as I am one of those 'model guys'... I guess. rolleyes.gif

I do it often to help the community and others who would like to visualize what they are or want to make. I am quite confident in my models (as long as the specs provided are accurate) and they are pretty accurate. However I do have a keen ability to see through parts of them that are left out and happen in the real world. Compression, inductance effects, crossovers, etc. That all being said I am not one to run out and claim all my models as gospel or "the end all".

I don't make a lot of money and certainly can not afford to go out and test every driver we talk about here. Lol that's kind of what we simulate for. wink.gif

So idk if you meant me. I'm only trying to help ... I usually know what I'm doing around here. wink.giftongue.gifbiggrin.gif

Nothing to do with you Scott. You're one of the most helpful people in this area. I'm more talking in general, people that pull models from Google and claim excellence, stuff like that that we all see all the time. My models have been pretty close, some have been WAY off. Not sure if it's different batches of drivers with different specs, etc but some are pretty different.

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post #456 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post


Not sure if this was directed at me as I am one of those 'model guys'... I guess. rolleyes.gif

I do it often to help the community and others who would like to visualize what they are or want to make. I am quite confident in my models (as long as the specs provided are accurate) and they are pretty accurate. However I do have a keen ability to see through parts of them that are left out and happen in the real world. Compression, inductance effects, crossovers, etc. That all being said I am not one to run out and claim all my models as gospel or "the end all".

I don't make a lot of money and certainly can not afford to go out and test every driver we talk about here. Lol that's kind of what we simulate for. wink.gif

So idk if you meant me. I'm only trying to help ... I usually know what I'm doing around here. wink.giftongue.gifbiggrin.gif

My post was not directed as a shot at you or anyone else. I apologize if it came across that way. Though as Nate pointed out many guys pull various graphs and look to them as a deciding factor or proof of driver superiority when real world experience can be very different.
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post #457 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 05:25 PM
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OK everyone's gone, have the house to myself...beginning the sweeps soon.
Will post when finished

Hope all goes well. eek.gif

I'm unplugging my mains and gonna run 0-200hz sweeps.
Later...
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post #458 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

OK everyone's gone, have the house to myself...beginning the sweeps soon.
Will post when finished

Hope all goes well. eek.gif

I'm unplugging my mains and gonna run 0-200hz sweeps.
Later...

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
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post #459 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 06:23 PM
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Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

QFT
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post #460 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The UXL hangs with the LMS Ultra for a fraction of the price.

Boss's,

I don't have a dog in this fight and I know you are friends with the designer of the UXL. However, I looked AWFULLY hard at the UXL vs the LMS 5400 and I don't think I found one single comparison of those two subs, mainly in terms of SQ, not output. I think i even PM'd you one time about those two subs but I haven't reread your response. I read a bunch of anecdotal stuff but no definitive statements directly comparing those subs. So I'm not sure I buy this statement unless they've been compared in the past couple months, which is entirely possible. I ended up going with the LMS 5400s and I know it is a beast of a sub but I'm not trying to justify my purchase, more like asking a question. If the UXL is that close in output and SQ then I'm sure my dad will be happy to save some money when I build him a sub system...or he might be getting some SI 24" subs and doesn't know it yet. smile.gif

David
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post #461 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 06:50 PM
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LAST TIME I DO THIS!

Holy sh1t...carp, totally understand...I've never been more scared!
I've never seen my place shake so much! The green graph was totally insane!!! eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
Image on my screen shock like crazy.
Hard time focusing during the sweeps...most intense bass I've ever heard!
Was REALLY scared to blow my subs up.
Never, NEVER saw my subs move so much!

Details:
Everything at 0
MiniDSP default at input sensitivity at 0
Unplugged mains
0-200HZ sweeps
Could not go past -5 on MV...NO WAY!

Graph:
Red 2x FTW21's one per corner 2100Watts per sub
Blue 2x SI18's one per corner on top of the 21's 1250Watts per sub.
Results:


I'm puzzled at the outcome and am not sure what I'm seeing!
30 HZ up just stopped increasing at approx 116DB but the ULF just kept going up! I mean...WTF???

My heart is still pounding...I swear it felt really weird with all my subs on.

I will NEVER do this again! No F Way!!!

Enjoy
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post #462 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 06:57 PM
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Damn!
That is an insane peak at 6.5 Hz.!cool.gif That is some serious SPL in the single digits. Better check the drywall seams and any shelved objects! eek.gif

I have never gone over 125 and I literally had broken objects. I don't dare go higher!

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post #463 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Nothing to do with you Scott. You're one of the most helpful people in this area. I'm more talking in general, people that pull models from Google and claim excellence, stuff like that that we all see all the time. My models have been pretty close, some have been WAY off. Not sure if it's different batches of drivers with different specs, etc but some are pretty different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

My post was not directed as a shot at you or anyone else. I apologize if it came across that way. Though as Nate pointed out many guys pull various graphs and look to them as a deciding factor or proof of driver superiority when real world experience can be very different.

Cool. Good news. smile.gif

Really I am just trying my best to help out around here. And as far as my models... I wouldn't post anything that I didn't think was representative of what the end user can expect. 100% accurate? Absolutely not but DIY is not for the completely novice crowd, now is it? wink.gif

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post #464 of 870 Old 11-22-2013, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

LAST TIME I DO THIS!

Holy sh1t...carp, totally understand...I've never been more scared!
I've never seen my place shake so much! The green graph was totally insane!!! eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
Image on my screen shock like crazy.
Hard time focusing during the sweeps...most intense bass I've ever heard!
Was REALLY scared to blow my subs up.
Never, NEVER saw my subs move so much!

Details:
Everything at 0
MiniDSP default at input sensitivity at 0
Unplugged mains
0-200HZ sweeps
Could not go past -5 on MV...NO WAY!

Graph:
Red 2x FTW21's one per corner 2100Watts per sub
Blue 2x SI18's one per corner on top of the 21's 1250Watts per sub.
Results:


I'm puzzled at the outcome and am not sure what I'm seeing!
30 HZ up just stopped increasing at approx 116DB but the ULF just kept going up! I mean...WTF???

My heart is still pounding...I swear it felt really weird with all my subs on.

I will NEVER do this again! No F Way!!!

Enjoy

Wow! Extreme single digits. tongue.gif

Hey, what kind of mic are you using again? I wonder if maybe it or the interface is clipping or otherwise run out of headroom and that's why it won't go higher over a certain frequency. Any correction file in use (if you're using one) would allow the signal within it's bandwidth to continue to rise, hence your single digits going up retarded high.

Now... I'd like to think that you should be able to get pretty damn high SPL across the board. smile.gif

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post #465 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

I'm puzzled at the outcome and am not sure what I'm seeing!

Puzzling for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

My heart is still pounding...I swear it felt really weird with all my subs on.

I will NEVER do this again! No F Way!!!


This, I don't doubt at all.

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post #466 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

Boss's,

I don't have a dog in this fight and I know you are friends with the designer of the UXL. However, I looked AWFULLY hard at the UXL vs the LMS 5400 and I don't think I found one single comparison of those two subs, mainly in terms of SQ, not output. I think i even PM'd you one time about those two subs but I haven't reread your response. I read a bunch of anecdotal stuff but no definitive statements directly comparing those subs. So I'm not sure I buy this statement unless they've been compared in the past couple months, which is entirely possible. I ended up going with the LMS 5400s and I know it is a beast of a sub but I'm not trying to justify my purchase, more like asking a question. If the UXL is that close in output and SQ then I'm sure my dad will be happy to save some money when I build him a sub system...or he might be getting some SI 24" subs and doesn't know it yet. smile.gif

David

Josh has compared them. The results are close enough that there will be no output/SQ difference, all else being equal, as in Josh's regimen.

If you'd rather come to conclusions based on what someone says subjectively in a typical subjective comparison, you're certainly welcome to take that route.

My opinion is what it is. In this case it's simple; save your dad some money. wink.gif
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post #467 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 09:33 AM
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Thanks Bosso. (sorry about Boss's - damn autocorrect)

Unfortunately, I won't have an opportunity to hear the UXL but maybe my dad and I could purchase one to test head to head to see if my dad...up to my dad but it makes sense to at least give it a shot.

Now, I still wouldn't have my JTR Noesis 212HTs if I had waited for me to listen to them. Instead...I took a ton of subjective reports, comparisons, and opinions and painted a mental picture that made me decide to order them sight unseen. Now there is not near the compelling evidence for the UXL vs. LMS 5400 but I appreciate your and Josh's data points.

Thanks.

David
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post #468 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Wow! Extreme single digits. tongue.gif

Hey, what kind of mic are you using again? I wonder if maybe it or the interface is clipping or otherwise run out of headroom and that's why it won't go higher over a certain frequency. Any correction file in use (if you're using one) would allow the signal within it's bandwidth to continue to rise, hence your single digits going up retarded high.

Now... I'd like to think that you should be able to get pretty damn high SPL across the board. smile.gif

My Mic is from Cross Spectrum labs model Dayton Audio UMM-6.
I did get a message about clipping ("Clipping is detected. Continue or cancel.." ) and I always hit continue.
That's gotta be the reason why my results look like that?
What do I need to do to get the 30HZ up frequency to show the real results?

Can anyone guide me as to how I need to setup REW/Mic to be able to read higher SPL?

Thanks
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post #469 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 10:58 AM
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when you measure, turn down the volume. No need to crank it up and measure. That might help with the clipping too.

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post #470 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

when you measure, turn down the volume. No need to crank it up and measure. That might help with the clipping too.

IIRC, Fatshaft was doing these high level compression graphs per request.

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post #471 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 11:31 AM
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Ok sorry.

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post #472 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 11:43 AM
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Lol. No need to feel sorry, man. You're right. If one is doing a regular graph then there is no need to push things super loud.

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post #473 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 01:40 PM
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Sorry fs that I haven't responded I've been gone all day and can't see the graph on my phone. Thanks for gutting through that I know it's not fun! I have questions for some of the experts related to your graph, I'll do that tonight.
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post #474 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 03:47 PM
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No problemo carp!

I would actually try this again but only if I can fix my REW settings so I can read higher DB.
Redid the mic cal and when I finished it said max SPL 119BD.
I would think that's my problem.

I know for a fact that playing a 30 or 50 or 80 HZ sine wave at -15 and -10 on the MV makes a BIG difference on my output!
I just think REW is not capturing it and I don't know how to fix that to get a real SPL reading.

It seems to read the ULF though and that's puzzling for me.

Regards,

PS. I searched youtube on how to configure REW but it's all over the map.
Some are old versions of REW and some don't quite show what I need.

Does anyone know of a better place to adjust using a UMM-6 Mic?
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post #475 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 05:27 PM
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I wish I could help you with REW and your mic but the only measuring I've done is with the Omnimic.


Ok, looking at your graphs that low end looks nuts!! I would think that if that sweep continued very long you might start to feel nauseous? I'm not sure since I haven't experienced single digits over 130db's, holy crap man! eek.gifcool.gif

Ok, looking at say... 15hz the difference in output between the corner loaded dual FTW's vs the same corner loaded dual SI's there is a difference of roughly 12 db's!! That's what I am looking for if that part of the measurement wasn't clipping the mic and is accurate. Huge difference between the two sets of drivers below 25 hz.

So, so you guys think there is merit and accuracy to the difference seen between the FTW's and same corner SI's or is a clipping mic throwing all the info out the window?


I sure hope not - for 2 reasons:

1. It's no picnic running these sweeps so it would be a shame not to get some good info from it and the fact that Fatshaft has the SI's (blue line) and the FTW's in basically the exact same spot it's a great chance to see what happens to these 2 different drivers down low when really pushed hard.

2. If the FTW truly does have a 12 db advantage that makes my future decision pretty easy for "supplementing" the bass in my room from 25hz and below.


I have a feeling though that 12db's more headroom is too good to be true.... wouldn't that mean that 1 FTW = 4 SI's down low (assuming both are given optimal amounts of power)?


Are we seeing compression with the FTW from 25hz and up or once again, is that a clipping issue? If it is compression, then what the hell. Why would their be no compression in the single digits up to 25 hz since (I assume) those lower frequencies are so much harder on a driver?


It goes without saying, but here is my state of mind right now: confused.gif


smile.gif
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post #476 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 05:30 PM
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No problemo carp!


Redid the mic cal and when I finished it said max SPL 119BD.
I would think that's my problem.


Ahh I missed this when I read your post before I responded. I'll leave my post above anyway in case there is a chance that there is some good info to be had from your sweeps, I hope there is.
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post #477 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 07:10 PM
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Carp,

Not sure where you're seeing the 12DB difference?
Maybe you're looking at the green graph?

The green graph is all my subs ON (4x FTW21 and 4X SI18)

The difference between the SI18 and FTW21 across all volumes is a little less than 3 DB!
I don't see where you see 12DB difference between them.
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post #478 of 870 Old 11-23-2013, 08:08 PM
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Any chance having the SI's off the floor is also making them lose some boundry gain from the floor? Even like 1db maybe? Was reading a thread the other day where when a guy put his corner loaded subs on a platform foot or so off the floor and he lost a little bit of output but not much.

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post #479 of 870 Old 11-24-2013, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Carp,

Not sure where you're seeing the 12DB difference?
Maybe you're looking at the green graph?

The green graph is all my subs ON (4x FTW21 and 4X SI18)

The difference between the SI18 and FTW21 across all volumes is a little less than 3 DB!
I don't see where you see 12DB difference between them.

Interesting.
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post #480 of 870 Old 11-24-2013, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Carp,

Not sure where you're seeing the 12DB difference?
Maybe you're looking at the green graph?

The green graph is all my subs ON (4x FTW21 and 4X SI18)

The difference between the SI18 and FTW21 across all volumes is a little less than 3 DB!
I don't see where you see 12DB difference between them.


Oh, I see. I mis-read. I thought green was the FTW's, red was the SI's that are not stacked on the FTW's, and blue was the SI's that are stacked on top of the FTW's. Damn cell phone.
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