Stereo Integrity 24" subwoofer - not kidding! - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Lonely Raven View Post
Well, when you're the only 24" available, I guess you can do that. We either pay it, or we move on. The business model will either work, or burn up.
Not exactly. The business model could change too, like a sale or lower price in the future. Or factors in MFG or shipping could change and reduce costs. It's basic sales management playing out. You can test the market at a higher price and move back down at a later date and drive volume albeit at a lower profit margin.

I guess being in sales all my life I don't exactly take any offense or see any problem with doing anything they do so I don't understand the criticism. If anyone wanted it at the lower price they should have bought it. If it goes on sale and you want to buy it, then buy it. If you are not willing to pay more then don't buy it. Basic consumer behavior playing out here.

I don't see people complaining when a car rebate disappears after the holiday weekend or Walmart raises it's price on something then puts it on sale again in the future. How is this different ?

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post #632 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 11:49 AM
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I think you misunderstood my post. My complaint was in the folks that seem to think they have a superior sales strategy for SI, or take unnecessary offense to changes in prices, or discontinuation or introductions of product lines. SI is a business with a right to function as such, and doing so means having sales, adding models, discontinuing models, bringing back old models that sell good.. etc.. No reason to criticize a business for being a business or doing things businesses do. Especially when every other subwoofer MFG does the same thing.
That's our point, and where we disagree. Not every other subwoofer manufacturer is doing this, and certainly not to this huge degree or trying to justify it using bogus reasons. The multiple increases PLUS the HT line situation makes this all the more difficult to swallow.
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post #633 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 11:58 AM
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That's our point, and where we disagree. Not every other subwoofer manufacturer is doing this, and certainly not to this huge degree or trying to justify it using bogus reasons. The multiple increases PLUS the HT line situation makes this all the more difficult to swallow.
What is so hard to swallow ? That he felt his product was underpriced so he raised it ? That is his right to do it.

You either buy it or don't. No sense in worrying about anything other than that IMO.

For the record I am interested myself, and not at the higher price but the lower price. But if I can't get it for what I want to buy it for, then perhaps I'll just buy something else. That's how purchase decisions work. I don't worry about all the other products on the market and what prices they sell for and why. I just worry about finding the best solution for myself.

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post #634 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Lonely Raven View Post
Well, when you're the only 24" available, I guess you can do that. We either pay it, or we move on. The business model will either work, or burn up.

Exactly, and I think that's why you are seeing him drop the price back down to $999. At $1599 I would guess it would be close to $1800 after shipping. That's a lot for a single driver, even if it is a 24" driver.

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post #635 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 12:05 PM
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What is so hard to swallow ? That he felt his product was underpriced so he raised it ? That is his right to do it.

You either buy it or don't. No sense in worrying about anything other than that IMO.

For the record I am interested myself, and not at the higher price but the lower price. But if I can't get it for what I want to buy it for, then perhaps I'll just buy something else. That's how purchase decisions work. I don't worry about all the other products on the market and what prices they sell for and why. I just worry about finding the best solution for myself.
There's a difference between raising the price because something was underpriced and he's trying to do a market correction and just flat out price gouging because you can. And at $1599 plus shipping I get the feeling sales were very slooooooooow and that's why they are back down to $999 plus shipping.

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post #636 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 12:07 PM
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There's a difference between raising the price because something was underpriced and he's trying to do a market correction and just flat out price gouging because you can. And at $1599 plus shipping I get the feeling sales were very slooooooooow and that's why they are back down to $999 plus shipping.
I agree.

That is his mistake, and right to make that mistake. Also his right to correct it.


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Exactly, and I think that's why you are seeing him drop the price back down to $999. At $1599 I would guess it would be close to $1800 after shipping. That's a lot for a single driver, even if it is a 24" driver.
I agree too.

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post #637 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 12:08 PM
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What is so hard to swallow ? That he felt his product was underpriced so he raised it ? That is his right to do it.

You either buy it or don't. No sense in worrying about anything other than that IMO.

For the record I am interested myself, and not at the higher price but the lower price. But if I can't get it for what I want to buy it for, then perhaps I'll just buy something else. That's how purchase decisions work. I don't worry about all the other products on the market and what prices they sell for and why. I just worry about finding the best solution for myself.
That goes without saying.

And what's tough to swallow is the magnitude of the increases. I was interested in 2 of these drivers for my future upgrade path. This was true even after the initial 43% increase. No one is complaining about the sale itself. It's more the huge increases that can't be supported by common sense. It's called gouging, as someone so aptly put it. But more power to them if they can get away with it. The sale leads me to think they can't but what do I know?
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post #638 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 12:18 PM
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Sorry guys - didn't mean to start a war, just wanted to share my findings after chatting with Nick.
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post #639 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 12:35 PM
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I feel like diysoundgroup pricing has caused everyone to forget that audio is a business and the manufacturers need to make money.
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post #640 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 12:36 PM
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Special like, "that boy ain't right" special?

Enough to get ole' Bosso cussin' up a storm about it

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For the record, I think Nick is free to run his business as he sees fit. And I think the SI 24 is an awesome sub. I just think he thought he could capitalize on the new hype for it and tried to cash in with an absurd price of $1599ea plus shipping. And then realized not many people were willing to drop that kind of cash for one and dropped the pricing back down to $999.

I think $999 is a fair price and he'll generate more sales at the price. I still think if he wanted to make some extra money for his business he should just raise the prices on the SI 18 to $185-$195. People will still buy them without even batting an eye.
Agreed here. Honestly I told Nick he shouldn't have priced it so low to begin with, but "Introductory" pricing on the woofer led him into the market, generated interest, and got a few folks on board. Honestly, what if he had started out offering the driver at $1,500? Would anyone have jumped on it? Probably not, because it wasn't vetted. Now it is, by more than one individual that knows a thing or two about subwoofer quality. At a pricing of $1,000, it is almost a no-brainer if you are looking for that kind of output, and who in their right (wrong) mind around here isn't doing that? Sheesh

Forget the initial pricing for a second and look at the woofer from a pure performance standpoint. It cleans shop all on its own. Holds up and shows a pair of ultra's how it is really done. So if I were one of the few that was in the market for a pair of ultra's and then saw the results of the g2g, why the heck WOULDN'T I jump on a single 24 at $1500?!?! The build quality is there (Yes these are all handmade by Nick himself), the performance is there, and it is freaking sexy looking

I honestly don't know his profit margin on the 24's, and maybe that introductory price was a shot in the foot, but moving forward if you see the price sit at $1,000 or even $1,200, I still wouldn't hesitate one second to suggest this driver as an option for someone with the budget and space to make it work... To say that it matched the performance of my 8 SI's is only a shade of a stretch, I betcha only 6 of them running would have been a dead heat... 6x$165= $990, $9 more bucks and you can get the same performance, in one massive 24" subwoofer. Quite impressive really if you ask me.
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post #641 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 12:44 PM
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Enough to get ole' Bosso cussin' up a storm about it



Agreed here. Honestly I told Nick he shouldn't have priced it so low to begin with, but "Introductory" pricing on the woofer led him into the market, generated interest, and got a few folks on board. Honestly, what if he had started out offering the driver at $1,500? Would anyone have jumped on it? Probably not, because it wasn't vetted. Now it is, by more than one individual that knows a thing or two about subwoofer quality. At a pricing of $1,000, it is almost a no-brainer if you are looking for that kind of output, and who in their right (wrong) mind around here isn't doing that? Sheesh

Forget the initial pricing for a second and look at the woofer from a pure performance standpoint. It cleans shop all on its own. Holds up and shows a pair of ultra's how it is really done. So if I were one of the few that was in the market for a pair of ultra's and then saw the results of the g2g, why the heck WOULDN'T I jump on a single 24 at $1500?!?! The build quality is there (Yes these are all handmade by Nick himself), the performance is there, and it is freaking sexy looking

I honestly don't know his profit margin on the 24's, and maybe that introductory price was a shot in the foot, but moving forward if you see the price sit at $1,000 or even $1,200, I still wouldn't hesitate one second to suggest this driver as an option for someone with the budget and space to make it work... To say that it matched the performance of my 8 SI's is only a shade of a stretch, I betcha only 6 of them running would have been a dead heat... 6x$165= $990, $9 more bucks and you can get the same performance, in one massive 24" subwoofer. Quite impressive really if you ask me.
Beast, how dare you use logic and common sense

Oh, and guess who's back...back again....I'll be back in full swing here soon and be able to offer up demos to anyone that wants to hear these things
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post #642 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Enough to get ole' Bosso cussin' up a storm about it



Agreed here. Honestly I told Nick he shouldn't have priced it so low to begin with, but "Introductory" pricing on the woofer led him into the market, generated interest, and got a few folks on board. Honestly, what if he had started out offering the driver at $1,500? Would anyone have jumped on it? Probably not, because it wasn't vetted. Now it is, by more than one individual that knows a thing or two about subwoofer quality. At a pricing of $1,000, it is almost a no-brainer if you are looking for that kind of output, and who in their right (wrong) mind around here isn't doing that? Sheesh

Forget the initial pricing for a second and look at the woofer from a pure performance standpoint. It cleans shop all on its own. Holds up and shows a pair of ultra's how it is really done. So if I were one of the few that was in the market for a pair of ultra's and then saw the results of the g2g, why the heck WOULDN'T I jump on a single 24 at $1500?!?! The build quality is there (Yes these are all handmade by Nick himself), the performance is there, and it is freaking sexy looking

I honestly don't know his profit margin on the 24's, and maybe that introductory price was a shot in the foot, but moving forward if you see the price sit at $1,000 or even $1,200, I still wouldn't hesitate one second to suggest this driver as an option for someone with the budget and space to make it work... To say that it matched the performance of my 8 SI's is only a shade of a stretch, I betcha only 6 of them running would have been a dead heat... 6x$165= $990, $9 more bucks and you can get the same performance, in one massive 24" subwoofer. Quite impressive really if you ask me.
This is basically how I feel. Well said^.

I totally get that some people who were interested at the lower initial prices are now upset the prices are higher; I also totally understand how someone who paid full price might be angry if it goes on sale cheaper than they paid. But this stuff happens all the time with almost anything you buy so I just wasn't understanding the reason why it's so evil when SI does it, but totally ok when millions of other companies do it. That makes no sense.

Since it's hand made, a bitch to ship it - there is obviously some trouble in these areas from a profit standpoint. There is a lot of moving parts to figure out the right retail price, he might have underestimated the price intentionally at first just to get things rolling. If he overcompensates with a increase and then a subsequent decrease I don't see anything wrong with him testing the market for the right place. I think this is what people are objecting to the most- calling it price gouging and what not. It's not really that, it's just testing the market to find a good balance.

I don't understand the concept things need to remain the same price. I have been buying steaks at the supermarket for 15 years and this year I find that ground beef and steak is way more than normal ($12.99 pound for sirloin strips!) - turns out there is a beef shortage ? Or lack of rain effecting grazing and birth rates of cattle ? IDK.. something like that. So my choice is pay up for the higher price of my burgers for the 4th July, or go with pork, or chicken or something else. This is the same thing.

Complaining about the price being higher is totally ok as a consumer; everyone wants a great price on stuff they want to buy. But accusations towards SI like they do something wrong or evil is just plain silly. Sometimes that gets smeared into the intentional suggestion that SI is not trust worthy or unethical or something else negative about them which doesn't really seem fair to me. I don't understand why there is so much love or hate and personal feelings with this stuff. Seems like everyone has a strong opinion but no one really cares about anyone else opinion other than their own so it just makes sense to not criticize SI unnecessarily because of whatever personal motivation people have to do that, and simply just not talk bad about it so much.
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post #643 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 12:53 PM
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Beast, how dare you use logic and common sense

Oh, and guess who's back...back again....I'll be back in full swing here soon and be able to offer up demos to anyone that wants to hear these things
Sign me up. I am on the boarder of CT and MA.

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post #644 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 01:15 PM
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I'm no business expert, but wouldn't it be better to start the sale of the units high to recoup design costs, and then drop the price over time if demand remains constant and supply can keep up with even higher demand at the lower prices in bulk... but never selling at a loss?

Having huge design and import costs and then starting with a opening firesale at-cost seems backwards to me, and then sticking it to them when the word is "everyone likes the thing" to recoup all the losses that were self-inflicted; which actually then backfires when the customer sees the jump in price relative to the market liking the thing and sales go down the drain. Only established business can afford to act like that and survive.

Customers aren't your friend, they love it when businesses sell things at cost; the zombies will eat you alive, because it's profitable to THEM.
Businesses have to remain profitable to THEMSELVES to remain open, so by-design you have to stick it to the customer, at least a little bit...
that is the cost the customers pays for not being able to build a 24inch subwoofer driver or a 16 core Intel processor themselves;
you are exchanging money for talent and abilities or laziness and stupidity... whichever of the 4 comes first. LOL
They don't teach the nature of consumerism, money management and business management in grade school, this is by-design...
if everyone knew how the game works, the consumeristic society system would completely collapse.
Just like if everyone built only DIY subs, no OEM sub-making businesses would exist, the customer would be too talented and smart.
Unquestionably social-engineering.

Never forget: only the difference between a feral adult and the joe-normal zombie population, is the difference in their schooling;
Or contrasted to that of a monkey vs your boss, whichever example you prefer most... you know most of them really aren't much smarter than apes! LOL

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post #645 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 01:16 PM
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This is basically how I feel. Well said^.

I totally get that some people who were interested at the lower initial prices are now upset the prices are higher; I also totally understand how someone who paid full price might be angry if it goes on sale cheaper than they paid. But this stuff happens all the time with almost anything you buy so I just wasn't understanding the reason why it's so evil when SI does it, but totally ok when millions of other companies do it. That makes no sense.

Since it's hand made, a bitch to ship it - there is obviously some trouble in these areas from a profit standpoint. There is a lot of moving parts to figure out the right retail price, he might have underestimated the price intentionally at first just to get things rolling. If he overcompensates with a increase and then a subsequent decrease I don't see anything wrong with him testing the market for the right place. I think this is what people are objecting to the most- calling it price gouging and what not. It's not really that, it's just testing the market to find a good balance.

I don't understand the concept things need to remain the same price. I have been buying steaks at the supermarket for 15 years and this year I find that ground beef and steak is way more than normal ($12.99 pound for sirloin strips!) - turns out there is a beef shortage ? Or lack of rain effecting grazing and birth rates of cattle ? IDK.. something like that. So my choice is pay up for the higher price of my burgers for the 4th July, or go with pork, or chicken or something else. This is the same thing.

Complaining about the price being higher is totally ok as a consumer; everyone wants a great price on stuff they want to buy. But accusations towards SI like they do something wrong or evil is just plain silly. Sometimes that gets smeared into the intentional suggestion that SI is not trust worthy or unethical or something else negative about them which doesn't really seem fair to me. I don't understand why there is so much love or hate and personal feelings with this stuff. Seems like everyone has a strong opinion but no one really cares about anyone else opinion other than their own so it just makes sense to not criticize SI unnecessarily because of whatever personal motivation people have to do that, and simply just not talk bad about it so much.
I think that's where we're talking past each other. No one expects prices to remain the same forever, and certainly companies, audio and otherwise, increase their prices over time, be it due to some shortage or inflation, whatever. But 2 points made some posts back illustrate the difference. First that Mach 5 also makes high end woofers. By hand. They're an even smaller boutique shop. They've also had price increases. But you don't hear anyone complain about it because those are small increases that can easily be justified by some increased cost or scarcity of parts. It doesn't reek of price gouging like this does.

Secondly, it has the sense of "introduce the product, find out people like it, then milk it for all its worth." Consumers generally don't want to feel that way. SI has been in business a long time. It's not reasonable to think that when this was introduced that they didn't account for costs and the type of profit they expected to see. You think they set out to make and sell a product that lost them money and sell that product for MONTHS at that same price? At $1000, I thought man, that's a big increase, but still doable. They've gone up another $600 dollars since then. And I ask again, if this had anything at all to do with increased costs, why don't their other lines show the same increase?

I can't speak for anyone else, but there is nothing personal about this, and I certainly don't have an agenda against them. between my brother and I, we own 5 SI products. I don't care who the manufacturer is, if I saw this same behavior, it would make me look elsewhere, too. It may not be unethical, but it's also not good business practice. Again, it's 228% in a year.

This may all be moot, and they may just decide to have a $1000 de facto price tag going forward. But coming off that HT (and HST line, now that I think about it) deals, this is not a good look, regardless of how tremendous the driver is.
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post #646 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 01:20 PM
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Also, refresh my memory---was the $699 every presented as an "introductory price?"
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post #647 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I'm no business expert, but wouldn't it be better to start the sale of the units high to recoup design costs, and then drop the price over time if demand remains constant and supply can keep up with even higher demand at the lower prices in bulk... but never selling at a loss?

Having huge design and import costs and then starting with a opening firesale at-cost seems backwards to me, and then sticking it to them when the word is "everyone likes the thing" to recoup all the losses that were self-inflicted; which actually then backfires when the customer sees the jump in price relative to the market liking the thing and sales go down the drain. Only established business can afford to act like that and survive.

Customers aren't your friend, they love it when businesses sell things at cost; the zombies will eat you alive, because it's profitable to THEM.
Businesses have to remain profitable to THEMSELVES remain open, so by-design you have to stick it to the customer, at least a little bit...
that is the cost the customers pays for not being able to build a 24inch subwoofer driver or a 16 core Intel processor themselves;
you are exchanging money for talent and abilities or laziness and stupidity... whichever of the 4 comes first. LOL
They don't teach the nature of consumerism, money management and business management in grade school, this is by-design...
if everyone knew how the game works, the consumeristic society system would completely collapse.
Just like if everyone built only DIY subs, no OEM sub making businesses would exist, the customer would be too talented and smart.
Unquestionably social-engineering.

Never forget: only the difference between a feral adult and the joe-normal zombie population, is the difference is their schooling;
Or contrasted to that of a monkey vs your boss, whichever example you prefer most... you know most of them they really aren't much smarter than apes! LOL

I agree with what you say about purpose of business and why people buy stuff.

But,

I think there is some "buzz" that needs to build up and generate before a product is successful. Selling them cheap is the easiest way to get the word out on the street and get a few loyal followers quickly. It's more effective than advertising I'd think. Even if you sell your first 100 units at ZERO PROFIT it's probably going to pay dividends later on with people talking about your product and how great it is.

Not a strategy that would work well with budget class junk, but for a premium 24" subwoofer I would think it would help to get a few on the street and the word out they kick ass.

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post #648 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 01:34 PM
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Again, it's 228% in a year.

This may all be moot, and they may just decide to have a $1000 de facto price tag going forward. But coming off that HT (and HST line, now that I think about it) deals, this is not a good look, regardless of how tremendous the driver is.

SO they are back to a "doable" price, at $1,000. As they might should have stayed at, but regardless, if this is it moving forward, it is a great deal for anyone looking to DIY with incredible performance. I don't even know if anyone bought at $1,599 so technically no one got "gouged." I am sure the final price move had a good reason behind it, or at least good intentions. I know Nick personally, and he would never intend to gouge anyone, but perhaps realized after what it took to build these out himself, that an increase was necessary.
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post #649 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 01:43 PM
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I agree with what you say about purpose of business and why people buy stuff.

But,

I think there is some "buzz" that needs to build up and generate before a product is successful. Selling them cheap is the easiest way to get the word out on the street and get a few loyal followers quickly. It's more effective than advertising I'd think. Even if you sell your first 100 units at ZERO PROFIT it's probably going to pay dividends later on with people talking about your product and how great it is.

Not a strategy that would work well with budget class junk, but for a premium 24" subwoofer I would think it would help to get a few on the street and the word out they kick ass.
Which is exactly what happened. Had the starting price been $1599, not a one would have bought this driver is my guess, even at $1,000 it would have been a stretch as people just said "Just get an Ultra" or "Just get two UXL's" or whatever. Then, the $699 price was used to get some track record, if you got in as an early adopter, you got lucky. The $999 price was never intended to stick and was literally a one month deal, with Nick having all intentions from the get-go to bring the price up to $1599. Kind of a "while it still lasts" type of deal for a month inside the transition period to the full priced driver.

This happens quite often, where people willing to stick their necks out for a "prototype" end up getting a killer deal, to be the guinea pig. Usually this many people don't have the opportunity to get in on these testing stages, but Nick wanted average guys like you and I to be the ones to vet this new powerhouse, and when he goes to adjust the price up accordingly for its true performance, he gets slaughtered. Maybe next time I will just show up with a 32" that hasn't hit the market from SI, which I will pay $1,000 for and never tell anyone about it. When the pricetag comes out at $2500 or whatever, no one will bat an eye.
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post #650 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 01:44 PM
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Enough to get ole' Bosso cussin' up a storm about it


Haha, yeah. I love that vid!

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Oh, and guess who's back...back again....I'll be back in full swing here soon and be able to offer up demos to anyone that wants to hear these things
Welcome back, Chop! Was wondering where you had gone off to.

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post #651 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 02:45 PM
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Can someone link the gtg for me?

Sub build http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...et-r-done.html
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Sub -Updating to Duals with UXL-18"s A bit different
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post #652 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 03:13 PM
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Beast's First Ever "Ballin' Out" NC g2g April 5th!!!!

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post #653 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 03:52 PM
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@Gorilla - D!ck move for Facebook stalking SI and finding the sale.

@chop - Welcome back man!

@Everyone - Thanks for the economics lesson. Last 40 posts were a freakin snoozefest.

This is AVS, not AVB or AVE...
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post #654 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 03:54 PM
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@you brotha, just trying to defend a homey who builds the baddest frikkin A$$ driver I have ever heard
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post #655 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 04:32 PM
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Which is exactly what happened. Had the starting price been $1599, not a one would have bought this driver is my guess, even at $1,000 it would have been a stretch as people just said "Just get an Ultra" or "Just get two UXL's" or whatever. Then, the $699 price was used to get some track record, if you got in as an early adopter, you got lucky. The $999 price was never intended to stick and was literally a one month deal, with Nick having all intentions from the get-go to bring the price up to $1599. Kind of a "while it still lasts" type of deal for a month inside the transition period to the full priced driver.

This happens quite often, where people willing to stick their necks out for a "prototype" end up getting a killer deal, to be the guinea pig. Usually this many people don't have the opportunity to get in on these testing stages, but Nick wanted average guys like you and I to be the ones to vet this new powerhouse, and when he goes to adjust the price up accordingly for its true performance, he gets slaughtered. Maybe next time I will just show up with a 32" that hasn't hit the market from SI, which I will pay $1,000 for and never tell anyone about it. When the pricetag comes out at $2500 or whatever, no one will bat an eye.
Agree with you, no one will buying an unproven woofer at $1599 when there is proven FTW21 at $600+ & LMS Ultra at $900+, so before proven, the $699 introductory price (which should be in between $600+ and $900+ to attract attentions) was for those who willing to be early adopter guinea pig, and from there to help the woofer to gain recognition in the market, in the end the killer deal is the reward to those guinea pig based on proven performance from GTG where HS24 > dual LMS Ultra, the reasonable price tag suppose to be close to $2000

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post #656 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 05:04 PM
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@Everyone - Thanks for the economics lesson. Last 40 posts were a freakin snoozefest.
For you guys with the 24's, I'm sure you're having a ball!
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post #657 of 870 Old 07-08-2014, 05:40 PM
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WELCOME BACK CHOP!!!!

IN case anyone missed it through all the other pricing posts.

I think the pricing is fine. It is only hard for me to see the price increases because I already scrape by as it is and this puts the woofer even further out of reach. That being said if the king of 15's loves it then that has quite a bit of weight for me. I want to see some more GTG videos with the 24".

And did everyone see chop is back ?!
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post #658 of 870 Old 07-09-2014, 06:46 AM
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I don't know of any more vids of the 24 from the g2g, but I am supremely confident that Once Austin hits his new abode, and builds out some boxes for his new toys, we will have quite a bit of cool content to check out. Excursion vids and whatnot...
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post #659 of 870 Old 07-09-2014, 11:25 AM
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Anyone ever port one of these bay boys at 10hz ? That could be epic..

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post #660 of 870 Old 07-09-2014, 11:31 AM
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I would like to see that.


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