Stereo Integrity 24" subwoofer - not kidding! - Page 27 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-16-2014, 05:16 PM
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DIY speaker guy, it was me that blew up my SI18's but it was with 2 x 500 watts Bash amps, not 1000.
Wow, that's even worse than I thought.

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Beast, I understand why you get defensive, I feel the same about Mach 5 but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, thats why I always laugh at people that know everything about a driver, when they've never even seen one, let alone heard one.
In this case we know quite a bit. There is Klippel testing of the prototype, which wasn't particularly impressive. We know MMS isn't particularly high for a driver with a cone this large and we know the VC is 3 inches, meaning neither the VC wire or the cone are particularly robust. We can make conclusions about thermal limits and distortion based on this info. A massive cone needs to be VERY strong or it's going to distort. Having real data would be wonderful but there isn't any even a year after production model Klippels were promised. I wonder why.

Like I said, I don't doubt this driver can move some air but with no real testing of any kind on the production model, lackluster results of the Klippel test of the prototype, a real question of power handling and distortion I don't think this driver is anything special.
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Old 07-16-2014, 05:24 PM
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Nick actually reached out to me to build a flat pack or box for it. I haven't discussed details with him yet, but due to the size it may not be feasible or cost effective to ship 4-5 sheets worth of ply freight, etc.
Gorilla, how large (cubic feet) is that box ? Double front baffle?

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Old 07-16-2014, 05:33 PM
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Wow, that's even worse than I thought.



In this case we know quite a bit. There is Klippel testing of the prototype, which wasn't particularly impressive. We know MMS isn't particularly high for a driver with a cone this large and we know the VC is 3 inches, meaning neither the VC wire or the cone are particularly robust. We can make conclusions about thermal limits and distortion based on this info. A massive cone needs to be VERY strong or it's going to distort. Having real data would be wonderful but there isn't any even a year after production model Klippels were promised. I wonder why.

Like I said, I don't doubt this driver can move some air but with no real testing of any kind on the production model, lackluster results of the Klippel test of the prototype, a real question of power handling and distortion I don't think this driver is anything special.

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you at all. I actually agree with most of what you said.
that being said, I'd personally still wait to see it first hand. My comment was just a generalization of the way most threads go lol

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Old 07-16-2014, 05:40 PM
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This driver wasn't especially impressive when it came out last year at $699. At $1599 I'm 229 percent less impressed. Using a single unverified IN ROOM comparison at a get together without level matching or eq or even using the same position in the room (!?!) and the subsequent very vocal feedback from a few loyal supporters that should know that this was not even close to a meaningful test as justification for a radical price increase is ludicrous. That's all I'm going to say about price.

I wasn't going to comment on this driver at all on this forum since SI is very popular here but it's about time to talk about it openly in a technical sense, it's been almost a year since I last mentioned it and there's still no more info than there was at that time. Starting with the recent comments about power handling, it's rated 1500 watts for a reason. It's got a tiny 3 inch VC and if you give it much more power than that in a sustained fashion (like popular modern music with ~3 db crest factor which is twice as demanding as an AES test signal), especially at a frequency corresponding to an excursion minimum, it's going to burn like a fuse. Much like a fuse, all drivers can take a lot of power for a short time, but a medium amount of power for a medium amount of time will fry it. I'd be surprised if I wasn't able to destroy it in 10 minutes with a Behringer EP2500 with commonly available music. A member here blew up a couple of the SI 18s (rated at 600 watts) with a pair of 1000 watt amps, the same thing is going to happen with the 24 if it's given more than it's rated power with aggressively low crest factor for any reasonable amount of time, especially at minimum excursion frequencies. People are claiming the single 24 can match or beat a pair of 5400s (albeit in a crazy evaluation method with no meaningful informative value) but seem to ignore the fact that the latter has several times more power handling, and if (actually at 8000 watts it's more a question of when) the 24 blows the pair of 5400s are going to be infinitely more impressive.

This driver has a massive cone which is only supported by a 3 inch circle (VC) in the middle of it's diameter. (The surround isn't really a support in this sense, it will pull the cone in the direction opposite to it's VC powered motion causing flex.) I don't know how strong the cone is but I would not be surprised to see massive amounts of cone flex and distortion at high excursion. This is just speculation of course, and will probably remain so since there is no technical data or testing on this driver (the production version) that I can find.

Klippel tests of the prototype for this driver showed xmax of 20 mm limited by Le. Klippel standard is to use the lowest of four categories (Le, Cms, IM and Bl) for their xmax spec. 20 mm is just a bit more than half of the xmax value claimed on the SI website. (The same website which also STILL erroneously claims this is the highest displacement driver on the planet almost a year after SI publicly admitted that it was not.) SI chooses to ignore the Le xmax limit, instead preferring to focus ONLY on Bl limits to xmax. The Klippel standard for xmax limited by Bl is the exursion level (in mm) at which Bl is 82 percent compared to Bl at the resting position, roughly the 10 percent distortion point. The SI 24 prototype tested at 24 mm xmax by this standard. Some companies prefer to use 71 percent instead (which is NOT an official Klippel standard) as it allows inflated xmax spec. At 71 percent Bl, the SI 24 prototype tested at 30 mm xmax but this doesn't even really count if the Le (or any other) xmax limit is lower. The 36 mm spec claimed on the website was just an estimate based on what SI thought the production driver would test at, but since the production driver was never tested (as far as I know), it's impossible to verify. I do know that at least one person has volunteered to Klippel the production driver for them almost a year ago but I haven't seen any results so I have to assume the results can't support the claimed xmax. If there were favorable Klippel results it would be a HUGE selling point and I would have expected to see them by now.

SI 24 Prototype Bl Klippel result originally submitted by Electrodynamic in post 30 but graph and explanation how to read it are here - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwo...ml#post3599310

SI 24 Prototype Cms and Le Klippel results submitted by Jakob of Sundown including an admission that the driver is limited by Le to 20 mm xmax (and including a promise that results from the production model were forthcoming almost a year ago) are here - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwo...ml#post3602649

The whole thread is interesting and I recommend reading it all but the most important info is in those two posts.

There's no doubt that this driver can move some air but there's no technical data of any kind to show that it's anything special, or even that it lives up to it's specs. There does seem to be reason to believe that the xmax spec is vastly overrated.


:


I'll take the word of guys I know personally and trust - as well as other forum experts like Bosso - Freakin' - Bass on this one.


The truth will come out when Ricci measures this bad boy. I've seen first hand how much the driver moves and how impressive it is in free air.
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Old 07-16-2014, 05:44 PM
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Old 07-16-2014, 05:47 PM
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Nate, I gotta think you got some bad drivers or something, I have abused the living hell out of these things without a problem???

I feed them 625 watts per driver and other guys are giving them a lot more....

BTW, my last couple posts might be a little out of character - I'm drinking wine during the day. haha, not something I normally do.
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Old 07-16-2014, 06:13 PM
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Sure, we did not "g2g" to run klippel tests or anything of the sort, but what we did do is give the driver some of the most demanding music I have ever heard, and I listen to music A LOT. All genres, including some of the most intense dub and electronic. We gave it those with "8000" watts on tap and it took it, just fine. I am ok with anyone waiting for some major stress testing and further measurements on the driver, but what it comes down to is real world usage. We did THAT at least at the g2g and it was the most impressive standalone driver I have ever heard. I would pit it against any other standalone driver sealed, and not just from an output standpoint. It surprised even me.

Bottom line is this forum makes too many people sit and look at stats and on paper results to make their decision, where what really counts is what you hear from a driver, or design in a real domestic setting. The 24 hasn't been proven outdoor for concert use yet, but hopefully someone will do that at some point. The box size for a ported "pro" installation will be HUGE, but it would be a heck of a lot of fun to see how it does. I would almost build one just for fun, and might still do it, but I don't have the avenue to actually get with the right folks to demo it out proper. I am just a lowly HT DIY guy who's ears weren't lying to him when he heard a single driver put to shame a couple of the most vetted drivers out there. Screw placement (sort of, my room measures very closely anywhere on the front wall), it was downright boggling how we were able to get what we did out of a single subwoofer, sealed.
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Old 07-16-2014, 06:19 PM
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The box size for a ported "pro" installation will be HUGE, but it would be a heck of a lot of fun to see how it does. I would almost build one just for fun, and might still do it, but I don't have the avenue to actually get with the right folks to demo it out proper. I am just a lowly HT DIY guy who's ears weren't lying to him when he heard a single driver put to shame a couple of the most vetted drivers out there. Screw placement (sort of, my room measures very closely anywhere on the front wall), it was downright boggling how we were able to get what we did out of a single subwoofer, sealed.
I'll volunteer to build a ported box and post what it can do. I'll even promote the sh!t out of it for nothing more than a discount to buy them complete with posts and pics on every forum. I want a couple. How can a bad ass 24" subwoofer not be cool ? Blows my mind so many trash it, when clearly it's a winner by all the ways you might care about for a subwoofer.

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Old 07-16-2014, 06:24 PM
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Sure, we did not "g2g" to run klippel tests or anything of the sort, but what we did do is give the driver some of the most demanding music I have ever heard, and I listen to music A LOT. All genres, including some of the most intense dub and electronic. We gave it those with "8000" watts on tap and it took it, just fine. I am ok with anyone waiting for some major stress testing and further measurements on the driver, but what it comes down to is real world usage. We did THAT at least at the g2g and it was the most impressive standalone driver I have ever heard. I would pit it against any other standalone driver sealed, and not just from an output standpoint. It surprised even me.

Bottom line is this forum makes too many people sit and look at stats and on paper results to make their decision, where what really counts is what you hear from a driver, or design in a real domestic setting. The 24 hasn't been proven outdoor for concert use yet, but hopefully someone will do that at some point. The box size for a ported "pro" installation will be HUGE, but it would be a heck of a lot of fun to see how it does. I would almost build one just for fun, and might still do it, but I don't have the avenue to actually get with the right folks to demo it out proper. I am just a lowly HT DIY guy who's ears weren't lying to him when he heard a single driver put to shame a couple of the most vetted drivers out there. Screw placement (sort of, my room measures very closely anywhere on the front wall), it was downright boggling how we were able to get what we did out of a single subwoofer, sealed.

The biggest reason that I didn't go with the SI 24 was simple because I wanted to go ported, but there was just no way I could make two 32cubic/ft cabinets work behind my false wall. And it was only $699ea at the time I was considering buying them.
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Old 07-16-2014, 06:40 PM
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Mfusick,

It would be an incredible build. While big, I ALMOST went to get some more wood to do it for the g2g but the only place I could have fit it with the front stage intact was to replace my third row bar that needs to be deceased as it is....Just didnt have enough time. Just make sure you don't give it more than 1,500 watts haha

JB,

You have an incredible setup and while a pair of 24's ported would have been awesome, I hope you don't have any reservations about the direction you went! a pair of ported 24's would have also been an absolutely awesome build, but you have something special. It definitely puts you in the 1%'ers club no doubt

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Old 07-16-2014, 06:46 PM
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Thanks Brandon, and you're right its funny how easy we get caught up with the "what ifs"....lol
I have more bass then I could every really use in a room that's less then 2000cubic/ft. I guess it'll just have to do for now
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Old 07-16-2014, 06:48 PM
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Sure, we did not "g2g" to run klippel tests or anything of the sort, but what we did do is give the driver some of the most demanding music I have ever heard, and I listen to music A LOT. All genres, including some of the most intense dub and electronic.
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Nate, I gotta think you got some bad drivers or something, I have abused the living hell out of these things without a problem???

I feed them 625 watts per driver and other guys are giving them a lot more....
I'm going to say this one more time because neither of you seem to get it, and then I'm going to leave it alone. You can't evaluate crest factor, duty cycle, power consumed over time or "intensity" of dub or electronic music by ear. Some stuff that sounds very aggressive can have extremely undemanding crest factor and overall power levels while some stuff that sounds very mellow can have power requirements similar to pure sine waves. If I asked you to listen to a song and draw the frequency response by ear and by hand on a piece of paper, could you do it? You can't measure crest factor or any other power requirements by ear either, and a clip light on an amp isn't much better, you need to properly evaluate what you are playing if you want to comment on how much power was used.

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Bottom line is this forum makes too many people sit and look at stats and on paper results to make their decision, where what really counts is what you hear from a driver, or design in a real domestic setting. The 24 hasn't been proven outdoor for concert use yet, but hopefully someone will do that at some point. The box size for a ported "pro" installation will be HUGE, but it would be a heck of a lot of fun to see how it does. I would almost build one just for fun, and might still do it, but I don't have the avenue to actually get with the right folks to demo it out proper. I am just a lowly HT DIY guy who's ears weren't lying to him when he heard a single driver put to shame a couple of the most vetted drivers out there. Screw placement (sort of, my room measures very closely anywhere on the front wall), it was downright boggling how we were able to get what we did out of a single subwoofer, sealed.
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I'll take the word of guys I know personally and trust - as well as other forum experts like Bosso - Freakin' - Bass on this one.


The truth will come out when Ricci measures this bad boy. I've seen first hand how much the driver moves and how impressive it is in free air.
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How can a bad ass 24" subwoofer not be cool ? Blows my mind so many trash it, when clearly it's a winner by all the ways you might care about for a subwoofer.
All of you are essentially saying measurements don't matter, which is especially ironic on the AV Science forum. Screw the placement? Room modes and boundary effects can easily cause +/- 15 db variations, a 30 db difference caused by the room itself is possible. Maybe not likely but the possibility that the room played no role at all is even more unlikely.

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20 mm?? No way. No way.
That was the prototype driver that was tested and it wasn't me that said it. It was Jakob of Sundown Audio, the guy that (I assume) designed it. (If he didn't design it completely independently he at least had a HUGE amount of input.) Also there's a Klippel graph which I provided a link to, as well as Jakob's statement of 20 mm xmax. I'm not sure how you could possibly disagree with any of this.

Humans are not very sensitive to distortion, but it is distortion (by way of variance in four major categories) we are measuring when we test xmax with a Klippel machine. Massive amounts of distortion can still sound good (or at least ok) but the Klippel tests are specifically designed to tell us at what point we reach a certain level of variance. Looking at a driver pumping in free air does not qualify you in any way to predict xmax. Sorry.

There's a whole lot of opinion and even second hand opinion going on here, and that's exactly my point. There's no real data on this driver. Where is it?

You guys want to call me ignorant and question the data that I've provided (most of which was originally provided by SI and Jakob of Sundown) but you can't do so in a technical manner because there simply is no technical data since the prototype Klippel results, which do not match the published specs at all. You have to understand that when you say things like I've quoted below with absolutely no technical data whatsoever, you are going to get challenged.

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He most certainly doesn't deserve this stupid banter, and his 24" absolutely doesn't require it, much less any more "Vetting."
... anyone who questions the quality of the 24 is a flat out liar. It deserves every bit of the pricetag it is listed at now, and that is the bottom line.
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Old 07-16-2014, 06:48 PM
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Nate, I gotta think you got some bad drivers or something, I have abused the living hell out of these things without a problem???

I feed them 625 watts per driver and other guys are giving them a lot more....

BTW, my last couple posts might be a little out of character - I'm drinking wine during the day. haha, not something I normally do.
Both coils completely burnt and unwound. Could have been a bad batch of glue, all sorts of things, I dunno. I sent an email and right away it was my fault, I didn't know what I was doing etc. They could have easy been flawed. I just threw them in the garbage and went on with my day... He's got a red check in my book

I'd love to play with a 24" in person, though unless someone I know gets one, it will never happen. I've got great options for drivers in Canada and at the 1599$ price, it would be over 2K for the driver once it got here, way to many other options for 2K.

It's the same reason you don't see to many guys in Canada getting LMS's, not worth the money vs what we can get here. For you guys in the US, it's a sweet deal but for once we have options too! LOL

It's too bad CCS never got a SDX 18 on the market, that was one sub I'd love to see. the 15's were really great drivers.
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Old 07-16-2014, 07:07 PM
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Mfusick,

It would be an incredible build. While big, I ALMOST went to get some more wood to do it for the g2g but the only place I could have fit it with the front stage intact was to replace my third row bar that needs to be deceased as it is....Just didnt have enough time. Just make sure you don't give it more than 1,500 watts haha

JB,

You have an incredible setup and while a pair of 24's ported would have been awesome, I hope you don't have any reservations about the direction you went! a pair of ported 24's would have also been an absolutely awesome build, but you have something special. It definitely puts you in the 1%'ers club no doubt
I have the room. I am planning new construction theater to start soon, 36 feet long by 25 feet wide. I can do a 36" or more false screen wall, and my ceilings will be 10 feet height in the center, soffits start at 8 feet on the sides.

I can design a few 35 cubic foot boxes into the room no problem at all. Hence my interest. ported at 10hz might be epic. Sealed subs might not do it for me in my big space.

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Old 07-16-2014, 07:10 PM
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I have the room. I am planning new construction theater to start soon, 36 feet long by 25 feet wide. I can do a 36" or more false screen wall, and my ceilings will be 10 feet height in the center, soffits start at 8 feet on the sides.

I can design a few 35 cubic foot boxes into the room no problem at all. Hence my interest. ported at 10hz might be epic. Sealed subs might not do it for me in my big space.
Wow with a room that big you should have a false front wall and a false rear wall. You could have two 35cu/ft ported cabinets up front and two in the back. That would be insane!
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Old 07-16-2014, 07:20 PM
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Wow with a room that big you should have a false front wall and a false rear wall. You could have two 35cu/ft ported cabinets up front and two in the back. That would be insane!
I plan to have at least 4 main subs, and of coarse with subs in the back too. Plus filler subs for smooth response, probably something like infinity 1260's in the columns on the sides.

The very back will be a full wet bar, but I can manage at least one main sub into the design in the back.

I'd like to get one of them off the floor up near the ceiling too. I'm not sure I have the budget for the 24" drivers though

Another option I had was doing a 16 foot long riser and folding 4 bass horns inside it, plus another 4 stand alone. 8 Gjallerhorns might be something too... My budget is a firm $2000 in drivers for now. Wood, size, WAF factor, or complexity is of absolute zero concern. I'm more interested in creating a bass solution that craps in the mouth of all the WAF factor subs, I'll design the room around that. Room is not built yet. Framing starts in a few months.
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Old 07-16-2014, 08:19 PM
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I plan to have at least 4 main subs, and of coarse with subs in the back too. Plus filler subs for smooth response, probably something like infinity 1260's in the columns on the sides.

The very back will be a full wet bar, but I can manage at least one main sub into the design in the back.

I'd like to get one of them off the floor up near the ceiling too. I'm not sure I have the budget for the 24" drivers though

Another option I had was doing a 16 foot long riser and folding 4 bass horns inside it, plus another 4 stand alone. 8 Gjallerhorns might be something too... My budget is a firm $2000 in drivers for now. Wood, size, WAF factor, or complexity is of absolute zero concern. I'm more interested in creating a bass solution that craps in the mouth of all the WAF factor subs, I'll design the room around that. Room is not built yet. Framing starts in a few months.
8 G-horns? LOL Now thats the type of thinking I like!

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Old 07-16-2014, 08:25 PM
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8 G-horns? LOL Now thats the type of thinking I like!
I am just undecided. Ported vs sealed vs horns. 24" vs 18" more drives like the SI18 vs fewer drivers like the UXL18.

Basically I am trying to get the most bass for the $, I'd like it to be excessive and over the top but I don't have the budget to just throw money at it. I do have plenty of space so even a 50 cubic foot box is doable, and I do have the skills to build.

The only thing I really am somewhat certain on is that sealed subs won't have the output in my big room unless I go with 30 or more of them. I'd like to be at least 10db over reference at 20hz, and at least reference at 10hz.

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Old 07-16-2014, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I am just undecided. Ported vs sealed vs horns. 24" vs 18" more drives like the SI18 vs fewer drivers like the UXL18.

Basically I am trying to get the most bass for the $, I'd like it to be excessive and over the top but I don't have the budget to just throw money at it. I do have plenty of space so even a 50 cubic foot box is doable, and I do have the skills to build.

The only thing I really am somewhat certain on is that sealed subs won't have the output in my big room unless I go with 30 or more of them. I'd like to be at least 10db over reference at 20hz, and at least reference at 10hz.
Well, I've got 2 G-horns and I'd say 8 would be down right silly LOL Horns are gonna be the only way you are gonna get even close to your goals with a budget, or a massive sub wall like MKtheater has.

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Old 07-16-2014, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Well, I've got 2 G-horns and I'd say 8 would be down right silly LOL Horns are gonna be the only way you are gonna get even close to your goals with a budget, or a massive sub wall like MKtheater has.
My fear is mixing the Ghorns with other subs (like sealed or ported). Seems like integrating them could be problematic. How did you handle this? What is the results? Can you compare the Ghorns to other stuff you've owned or heard?

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Old 07-16-2014, 08:58 PM
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Why, yes, yes I can! Although I've got mine pretty dialed in with all my sealed stuff, it did take some trial and error. Currently running, 2 x G-horns, 8 x FTW 21's, 4 x UXL (IB) and 2 JTR 215's running full range with music, 60hz with movies.\

SQ wise, the G-horns sound great. I use 4 x opendrc-an's for EQ'ing and done withj ominmic and REW. They hammer pretty hard, it's pretty funny really. They blend in fine with the rest of the system. My room in long and narrow and I run the horns and 21's nearfield... lol. The looks on people faces is priceless.....

That being said, in a huge room like your's, I think I'd stick to 1 design, mine wasn't so bad but yours could be a nightmare! Why don't you consider a huge baffle wall filled with subs?

8 up front with the ability to add 8 behind. Some FI IB3's or similar. thats a solid way to go too.

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Old 07-16-2014, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I am just undecided. Ported vs sealed vs horns. 24" vs 18" more drives like the SI18 vs fewer drivers like the UXL18.

Basically I am trying to get the most bass for the $, I'd like it to be excessive and over the top but I don't have the budget to just throw money at it. I do have plenty of space so even a 50 cubic foot box is doable, and I do have the skills to build.

The only thing I really am somewhat certain on is that sealed subs won't have the output in my big room unless I go with 30 or more of them. I'd like to be at least 10db over reference at 20hz, and at least reference at 10hz.
You could build a couple of the massive ported cabinets that forum member 316 built using four SI 18's per cabinet.





$2000 budget would basically allow you to buy 12 SI-18's and you could build three of these monsters, that would be pretty crazy.
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Old 07-16-2014, 09:17 PM
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Something like that isn't out of the question. I think I'd do multiple cabs though so I could locate them better.

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Old 07-16-2014, 09:18 PM
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I can offer up my box, assuming I get another sheet of ply on the front baffle and it could be used. Free of charge minus the gas that it takes to get it to Ricci.
I can get it to Ricci. Louisville, right? I drive through there fairly regularly... although I don't know when the next trip will be...probably at least 5-6 weeks. If nothing else comes through before then... I'm already going, and it's on the way, as long as it'll fit in the minivan... and I do still owe you a solid...
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Old 07-16-2014, 11:13 PM
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I can get it to Ricci. Louisville, right? I drive through there fairly regularly... although I don't know when the next trip will be...probably at least 5-6 weeks. If nothing else comes through before then... I'm already going, and it's on the way, as long as it'll fit in the minivan... and I do still owe you a solid...
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Old 07-16-2014, 11:29 PM
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We used the noise generator.

Yes the FR was different, but not all that different. Look guys, we didn't get together to do an ABX test. Far from it. We got together to have some fun with the 24. It was tremendously impressive. Not one person in the room could ever say anything otherwise. Throw out the results if you want to. We had a blast, drank some good beer, and enjoyed a fantastic day of audio fun.

If anyone that was actually there wants to come in a say "Yea the 24" isn't worth $1599" then they are welcome to, but I saw the value of the driver, and I feel like it is every bit worth it.
i hope that you didn't make more of my comment than what i said, which was simply that mk's observation that the same folks who were putting up spectrumlab's of the a-b comparo without eq'ing for the comparison and then reporting the 'significant differences' and providing the setting for others to hear the same have been all up his azz for the same thing forever. with respect to that point, mk is right.


dsg makes some good points as usual, but i think that i'll go ahead and disagree with the le(x) xmax rating comment. that curve is symmetrical and centered, and that's pretty rare. it will be interesting to see how the upper end sensitivity comes in.


another thing that keeps getting thrown around is "watts" on the driver. in a sealed enclosure, that driver has a natural resonance around 30hz or so. that creates a spike in the impedance. around that resonance point, there is a ton of stored energy, so it takes very little actual power to generate the sound. here is the driver t/s model for power at "1500 watts". around 30hz or so, which is the wheelhouse for some of the electronic music referenced, the actual current and power dissipated through the driver is VERY small. you could pound on the driver with "1500 watts" at 30hz all day just fine because only about a tenth of that is actually being turned into heat.


whether it is worth the money or not is going to be questioned just as it is with every other driver. relative to its competition, it doesn't seem out of line. the early pricing probably just got a few folk's hopes up and then disappointed them. i kind of get that too. it seems to have the performance and it does look cool, so i'm sure lots of them will find there way into folks' systems.


cheers,


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Old 07-17-2014, 12:43 AM
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I planned on purchasing 2 this christmas, but the price increase from $699 to $1599 will likely send me down the route of the Mach5 FTW instead. 2 21" for less than the price of a single 24HST
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:42 AM
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i hope that you didn't make more of my comment than what i said, which was simply that mk's observation that the same folks who were putting up spectrumlab's of the a-b comparo without eq'ing for the comparison and then reporting the 'significant differences' and providing the setting for others to hear the same have been all up his azz for the same thing forever. with respect to that point, mk is right.
LTD - I'm responding to part of your statement. This post isn't necessarily directed at you.

How many speakers or subs get EQ'd at GTGs? We spent a lot of time comparing the subs, comparing the JTR 212HT-LPs to the Danley SH50s, and then doing some demoing of the HS24 with Beasts system, and finally experiencing Beasts full system. There wasn't enough time to EQ everything and if it meant cutting out something or EQing, I'm glad we were able to experience what we did, even if everything wasn't "perfect".

There were at least measurements against the original signal as well as the HS24 and LMS-5400s. Measurements were taken with some high end equipment including a $2000 mic. Both subs had less than optimal placement and setup, which means they could both do better. My LMS-5400s would have done better with more power (I'm now putting 4000w through each instead of 2,400w). Regarding room gain, the LMS-5400s were closer to the corners so likely would have had more room gain than the HS24 in the center of one end of the long room.

Either way, in the real world, where things really matter, the HS24 was impressive. Everyone at the GTG was thoroughly impressed with output, sound quality, lack of distortion, etc. We did blind switching and we couldn't tell which was which (about 10 under reference). And it wasn't only subjective as we did have numbers to back it up.

But hey, if people want to miss out on an outstanding subwoofer then so be it. I look forward to adding one to my stable of 3 LMS-5400s soon enough and I'll be done. Actually, I could easily get rid of one of my LMS-5400s once I add the HS24 but want to keep at least 2 LMS-5400s around the room to spread out the response at multiple seating positions.

And I'm really tired of the price discussion but the official price was never $699. If you missed out on the preorder, you never had an option to buy at $699. Complain about the price going from $999 to $1299 to $1599 if you'd like but saying it jumped from $699 is disingenuous and inaccurate (at least in my opinion, which we are all entitled to).
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jayrich804 View Post
I planned on purchasing 2 this christmas, but the price increase from $699 to $1599 will likely send me down the route of the Mach5 FTW instead. 2 21" for less than the price of a single 24HST
I really like the HS24 but if it came down to 1 HS24 or 2 of something else decent, I'd recommend 2 of something else to even out the bass response at multiple seating positions. I'm not familiar with the FTW but I do have a pair of UXL-18s at my dads and they seem to be nice subs. You'd have a heck of a setup with a pair of FTW-21s.
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:42 AM
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dsg makes some good points as usual, but i think that i'll go ahead and disagree with the le(x) xmax rating comment. that curve is symmetrical and centered, and that's pretty rare. it will be interesting to see how the upper end sensitivity comes in.
Again, just to be clear, I didn't make the Le xmax limit comment, that was Jakob of Sundown Audio. The only comments I made about Le limits were in explaining the Klippel standard.

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another thing that keeps getting thrown around is "watts" on the driver. in a sealed enclosure, that driver has a natural resonance around 30hz or so. that creates a spike in the impedance. around that resonance point, there is a ton of stored energy, so it takes very little actual power to generate the sound. here is the driver t/s model for power at "1500 watts". around 30hz or so, which is the wheelhouse for some of the electronic music referenced, the actual current and power dissipated through the driver is VERY small. you could pound on the driver with "1500 watts" at 30hz all day just fine because only about a tenth of that is actually being turned into heat.
This is a good point and it's why I said you need to know the box design as well as the material content in order to make any statements about actial power. The enclosure loading is extremely important.

If I could make a couple notes though, this sim appears to be very lossless, realistically Qa should probably be lowered. I'm assuming most people will want to get the Qtc down a bit with stuffing, and a stuffed box can have a Qa as low as 3 which makes a big change to the sim. The big dip at 30 hz will fill in to the extent that it will only be half as deep. Still, that's not a particularly troublesome frequency range. (Even an unstuffed box will probably have a lower Qa than it appears you used.)

The trouble in this sim is at frequencies around 50 hz (with the low pass as simmed) and below 20 hz in the box you simmed. Raise the low pass frequency and the problem area at 50 hz gets wider and higher. In a ported box things are a bit different but in ANY box if you hit problem frequencies with a sustained tone with low crest factor at much more than the driver's rated power, it's going to fry.

Here's an example of a demanding track. (It's power intensity is at about 35 hz so it's not a particular danger to this driver at rated power in the box you simmed but it's late and I'm not going to track down and document a track that's really dangerous to the sub configuration you simmed right now. For the record though, at 8000 watts this track would destroy this driver in the box you simmed in short order even though the problem frequency in this track is 35 hz which is in the power dip created by the impedance peak.) Hunter by Kaiju is very mellow sounding for it's genre due to it's slow pace and lack of higher harmonics but it's bass spike is a sub shredder. This type of music is becoming more popular and available and it's a lot more demanding than your average EDM or dubstep content. Here's a link to an analysis of the song that shows that it's very close to equivalent to a pure sine wave over the majority of it's running time. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwo...ml#post3797901

And here's a quick snapshot of it's frequency analysis.



Material with low dynamic range similar to this track but with power demands at a lower frequency is going to be a big problem for this driver even with a "small" amp like an EP2500.

To keep things in perspective, let's remember that the B&C 18tbw100 (an excellent driver by all accounts) with it's big 4 inch voice coil and revolutionary cooling properties (compared to drivers of a decade ago) is rated at 1500 watts AES and at that power level it will suffer quite a bit of thermal compression. The SI 24 with it's small 3 inch voice coil is rated at 1500 watts RMS, which is actually TWICE AS MUCH POWER as the 1500 watts AES due to crest factor. It would be nice if we all could try to talk about ACTUAL power and be a little bit realistic about what a 3 inch voice coil can actually handle. I'm sure it can survive it's rated power but all this talk about 8000 watts is unrealistic, undefined and unqualified.

Anyway I'm sure you know all this already (whether you agree with my position or not) and most of this was not directed at you but your comments gave me a chance to clarify my position a bit with examples.

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