Stereo Integrity 24" subwoofer - not kidding! - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-17-2014, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I really like the HS24 but if it came down to 1 HS24 or 2 of something else decent, I'd recommend 2 of something else to even out the bass response at multiple seating positions. I'm not familiar with the FTW but I do have a pair of UXL-18s at my dads and they seem to be nice subs. You'd have a heck of a setup with a pair of FTW-21s.
Yeah, i agree, I was going with SI it was $699 when it came out. there was never any mention of an introductory price and is why I didn't get them at that time. At the current price point, it does not make sense for me personally as the FTW is a 21" version of the UXL for $650 shipped

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Old 07-17-2014, 09:50 AM
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I'm going to say this one more time because neither of you seem to get it, and then I'm going to leave it alone. You can't evaluate crest factor, duty cycle, power consumed over time or "intensity" of dub or electronic music by ear. Some stuff that sounds very aggressive can have extremely undemanding crest factor and overall power levels while some stuff that sounds very mellow can have power requirements similar to pure sine waves. If I asked you to listen to a song and draw the frequency response by ear and by hand on a piece of paper, could you do it? You can't measure crest factor or any other power requirements by ear either, and a clip light on an amp isn't much better, you need to properly evaluate what you are playing if you want to comment on how much power was used.


Who said anything about evaluating crest factor et. al. by ear? Your fancy little graph of "kaiju" is exactly what I had seen before around here on some of the tracks that we selected and played at the g2g. Some of the things we played had been "properly evaluated" Do me a favor and run some of dubking's tracks through your simulator you got the kaiju thing from, then tell me they aren't physically demanding on a subwoofer. You might be surprised, kaiju looks like child's play to a couple of them...




All of you are essentially saying measurements don't matter, which is especially ironic on the AV Science forum. Screw the placement? Room modes and boundary effects can easily cause +/- 15 db variations, a 30 db difference caused by the room itself is possible. Maybe not likely but the possibility that the room played no role at all is even more unlikely.

Thank you for putting untrue words into my mouth. I would never say measurements don't matter, but I would say that real world experience DEFINITELY does. The next part I told you, across the entire front of my theater, the bass response is VERY close regardless of where you put the subs. This wasn't just tossed into a living room and we all huddled around and played some toonz. I have spent countless hours, with countless setups measuring my very well treated space and in no measurement at any location along the front wall have I ever found anything as drastic as what you are talking about. You made the assumption that the difference could be that huge, and you are wrong. Did the room play a part? Maybe a little, but nowhere near as much as you are assuming.

There's a whole lot of opinion and even second hand opinion going on here, and that's exactly my point. There's no real data on this driver. Where is it?

The hilarity of this entire conversation just hit me with that last comment. The closest thing to 'real' data (true) that anyone has at this point is what a room full of enthusiasts actually experience at my house. So, beast's g2g guests 1, DSG 0. Ok maybe I will give us just a half a point instead since we didn't perform any scientific tests...

You guys want to call me ignorant and question the data that I've provided (most of which was originally provided by SI and Jakob of Sundown) but you can't do so in a technical manner because there simply is no technical data since the prototype Klippel results, which do not match the published specs at all. You have to understand that when you say things like I've quoted below with absolutely no technical data whatsoever, you are going to get challenged.
I will stick to my comment with a single caveat, I will submit that the driver should be fully tested from a 'technical' standpoint. The absolute garbage is the time I have had to take defending Nick and his product, both of which are upstanding, to the likes of several folks who have just come in here to trash talk, with absolutely NO proof of anything. I will submit that the only person at this point validated to really be able to post negatively would be n8 with his experience. You on the other hand, are running off prototype specs, and making speculations on "numbers" and how the driver should react real world. Maybe it will maybe it wont. so let's leave it alone at that. Funny thing is, there is something that I like to do when I want to test some type of item in particular...I BUY IT. You really want to get the numbers and information you want? Go out and order a driver. Try it for yourself! If you are just here to talk about driver specs and speculate on how fast you can fry the little 3" voice coil, please just move on. Join the BC 18tbw owner's thread and use your time a little better. I think we are all tired of wasting our time here..."SPECULATING"
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:40 AM
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I'm the one that took my pair of LMS-5400s to Beasts house; a driver that has proven capabilities, low distortion, and solid output. If I were making the decision today and if I had the space to fit a pair of HS24 (I can only fit 1), I would purchase a pair of HS24 vs my 3 LMS-5400s. Even if we're talking $1599 vs $925 each for LMS-5400s, I would save up to pay the extra for the HS24s every day of the week. Plus, it would have saved me $2500 for not "needing" a second SpeakerPower SP2-8000. If I were building a new theater room or if a friend asked me to build a theater for them, it would be with a pair of HS24 handling bass duties. I have no financial incentive to push the HS24, it is simply that good of a driver and I will be getting 1 soon.

Subs I've heard to put my statements in context:
  • Many single subs that I used to think were good until I learned what real subwoofers were from this (DAMN EXPENSIVE) forum
  • My 3 LMS 5400s powered by 12000 watts (1.5 SpeakerPower SP2-8000)
  • Beasts 8 SI18s in 4 DO boxes - best sub system I've heard yet...partially due to his many (effective) efforts at treating his room
  • Coach's 6, now 8 SI18s in a room - still not as good as Beast but close and will get better as the subs are integrated in with his new JTR 215RTs better
  • I bought 2 UXL-18s and ended up building boxes for my dad. Nice subwoofers and a worthy alternative to the LMS-5400 at about 55% of the cost
  • HS24 at Beasts house
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:42 AM
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:43 AM
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dammit dgage...why you gotta be so quick to comment all of the time...
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jayrich804 View Post
Yeah, i agree, I was going with SI its was $699 when it came out. there was never any mention of an introductory price and is why I didn't get them at that time. At the current price point, it does not make sense for me personally as the FTW is a 21" version of the UXL for $650 shipped
Understand your point if you didn't realize the $699 was an introductory price.

Even though I keep recommending a pair of the HS24s, I can only fit a single one but with 3 LMS-5400s, I think I'll be covered and a member of the 1%ers group. I understand the FTW-21 being good for you and I look forward to reading about your system, I'm sure it will be outstanding.
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
...
A couple more quick comments that should be obvious and then I'm done with discussing this with you. You still haven't made a single technical statement yet. If and when you do I'll discuss this with you in a technical manner.

1. The room position absolutely can cause +/- 15 db variance. I didn't assume that happened, you actually quoted me saying that much variance in this situation was not likely but the room absolutely is a contributing factor.

2. The room goes hand in hand with level matching and eq'ing a common response. Assuming one sub or the other was naturally playing stronger at a room mode frequency (even if there was NO variance due to position) the one that stirs up the modes more effectively is going to sound much more impressive.

3. Distortion makes speakers sound much louder than speakers that don't distort as much. And since distortion isn't necessarily always unpleasant, the speaker with more distortion will usually sound more impressive, at least until you get into gross distortion levels up around 100 percent.

4. If you want your tracks analyzed, do it yourself and please feel free to post up any content that has less dynamic range if you can find it. That will give you a good basis to have a technical discussion. I've already provided a ton of info, almost none of it is opinion, I didn't make any of it up, most of it was originally posted by other people, people that include the designers and seller of this device. As far as I know I've provided ALL the info that currently available.

I think I've said 3 times already that it's no surprise this driver can move a lot of air. It's got a 24 inch cone, it should move a lot of air. But there is still NO EVIDENCE that it can do so with low distortion or even that the specs are realistic.
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:51 AM
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dammit dgage...why you gotta be so quick to comment all of the time...
I gave you a solid 50 min to follow up on Beast's comments. And I decided not to respond to DSG's comments last night that I didn't particularly care for (personally feels like he's trolling and being negative but I'd rather he be able to speak his opinion than censor) so there was ample time there too.
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:52 AM
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I don't doubt the performance of the 24 as the 18 tested well on DB. Why would Nick throw this out there and say it is like having 4 of his 18's and have it flop? No way someone would do that. I am just curious on the exact amount, I don't know why, just curious. I am ready to order 4 more of my drivers but 2 of these are twice as much at $999 each. I guess the question becomes where are they 4 drivers better? 20hz and below, the whole range, etc.. Maybe they are like having 4 SI 18's above 20hz and 6 below? This is what I want to know. I know the spec lab showed more output below than dual LMS 5400's but they were not maxed out so one could boost the low end of each for both to be flat, the LMS needs more boost. We also have the FTW-21 for $600 which is a huge competitor, no? I wonder how they would compare because I really did forget about these two drivers. If the 24 has more low end than can Nick change to the parameters so I can model it better?
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:02 AM
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I think I've said 3 times already that it's no surprise this driver can move a lot of air. It's got a 24 inch cone, it should move a lot of air. But there is still NO EVIDENCE that it can do so with low distortion or even that the specs are realistic.
I can read all about specs about Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini and which is better or faster or 1+G skidpad numbers. But behind the wheel it matters not one bit. And this is the point we're trying to make. In the real world specs don't matter...they matter for research or discussion but not in practice. And you are saying that this driver that many experienced forum members put through the wringer might have experienced high levels of distortion, even when A/Bd with the LMS-5400, one of the lowest distortion drivers in the world? Really? I understand this is the Audio Visual SCIENCE forum but stop being a geek and come out from behind the keyboard and experience the real world. In the real world we don't get perfect information or things exactly the way we want or think they should be. But hey, if you don't think the HS24 is a good driver, so be it...you're missing out. It doesn't matter. I hope you are enjoying the system you have because that is all that matters. I for one look forward to enjoying the HS24 in all its glory with all of its supposed flaws.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:08 AM
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Yeah, i agree, I was going with SI its was $699 when it came out. there was never any mention of an introductory price and is why I didn't get them at that time. At the current price point, it does not make sense for me personally as the FTW is a 21" version of the UXL for $650 shipped
Are there any FTW-21 builds here that you know of?
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:12 AM
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I don't doubt the performance of the 24 as the 18 tested well on DB. Why would Nick throw this out there and say it is like having 4 of his 18's and have it flop? No way someone would do that. I am just curious on the exact amount, I don't know why, just curious. I am ready to order 4 more of my drivers but 2 of these are twice as much at $999 each. I guess the question becomes where are they 4 drivers better? 20hz and below, the whole range, etc.. Maybe they are like having 4 SI 18's above 20hz and 6 below? This is what I want to know. I know the spec lab showed more output below than dual LMS 5400's but they were not maxed out so one could boost the low end of each for both to be flat, the LMS needs more boost. We also have the FTW-21 for $600 which is a huge competitor, no? I wonder how they would compare because I really did forget about these two drivers. If the 24 has more low end than can Nick change to the parameters so I can model it better?
Good questions, and a couple of them I've wondered myself. For about $1200 shipped, one could get 2 FTWs, which have about 45% more displacement than the 24 and can be used in 12 cubes (6 each). Not to mention the advantage one gets with having 2 drivers to spread around.

It's great to have so many choices available these days!
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:14 AM
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Are there any FTW-21 builds here that you know of?
Off the top of my head, I know that both N8Dogg and Fatshaft have multiple FTWs. And there was a group buy in the last year, as well.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:26 AM
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In the real world specs don't matter...
WHAT!?! Several people have said this indirectly already, I wasn't expecting anyone to say it outright. Specs do matter. A lot. Measurement matter. Analyzing material content matter.

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And you are saying that this driver that many experienced forum members put through the wringer might have experienced high levels of distortion, even when A/Bd with the LMS-5400, one of the lowest distortion drivers in the world? Really?
Yes, really. I just finished saying the sub with HIGHER distortion will usually be considered MORE IMPRESSIVE in a blind (no measurements) test. Distortion makes things louder, it adds all kinds of harmonics and other junk, and it's not necessarily unpleasant, but distortion is not accurate reproduction. In short term test like a one day gtg, gobs of distortion can sound very impressive.

This clearly isn't going anywhere. I put the info out there and you guys can take it or leave it. I have no more info to present and apparently the opposition has no use for specs or measurements so there is no common ground here. Collectively you guys have called me ignorant, a troll and a geek but have provided no technical info or measurements. Quit quoting me and I'll quit quoting you.

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Old 07-17-2014, 11:33 AM
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Here is the thread that I downloaded "The Joy of Minimal" track that we played A LOT at beast's.

The Truth Hz

About midway through the first post. I know I pulled a FR plot from Audacity, but can't seem to locate it... Anyway, maybe not the most demanding from a thermal perspective, but a fun track that is a good test for very capable sealed subs.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage
In the real world specs don't matter...


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Originally Posted by diy speaker guy View Post
WHAT!?! Several people have said this indirectly already, I wasn't expecting anyone to say it outright. Specs do matter. A lot. Measurement matter. Analyzing material content matter.
In the context of when you put something to its use and it performs, specs no longer matter, performance does.

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Yes, really. I just finished saying the sub with HIGHER distortion will usually be considered MORE IMPRESSIVE in a blind (no measurements) test. Distortion makes things louder, it adds all kinds of harmonics and other junk, and it's not necessarily unpleasant, but distortion is not accurate reproduction. In short term test like a one day gtg, gobs of distortion can sound very impressive.
Except in the case of A/Bing where we were trying to identify which sub was which and which sub sounded better...none of us could pick a difference...until the music went down to 7Hz where the LMS-5400s were barely producing the same notes. Maybe there was some distortion but you had a group of 1%ers and other normal folks mingling together and they all said the same thing...that HS24 was impressive. In the real world the HS24 was impressive both in terms of sound quality as well as output. Again, I'm used to 3 of the LMS-5400s, which is one of the lowest distortion drivers out but I simply couldn't tell a difference between the two subs from 10-100Hz. So again, do specs really matter when the subjective results are that good...for some apparently they do.

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This clearly isn't going anywhere. I put the info out there and you guys can take it or leave it. I have no more info to present and apparently the opposition has no use for specs or measurements so there is no common ground here. Quit quoting me and I'll quit quoting you.
I agree and you did present some good info about the potential for distortion and while it would have been nice to see that one had x% distortion and one was slightly higher at y% distortion, at the end of the day results matter...not specs. And the results from everyone that attended the GTG was a huge smile on how good the HS24 was. Of course, the smile turned into a jaw drop when Beast unleashed his 8 SI18s with proper DSP. BEST SYSTEM I'VE HEARD with clean, powerful bass, that hit you in the chest. His system was phenomenal and one HS24 was really good, two would be even better. I agree that we've said enough. I hope you have many years enjoying your system, with whatever you are running, as that is all that really matters.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:43 AM
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Understand your point if you didn't realize the $699 was an introductory price.

Even though I keep recommending a pair of the HS24s, I can only fit a single one but with 3 LMS-5400s, I think I'll be covered and a member of the 1%ers group. I understand the FTW-21 being good for you and I look forward to reading about your system, I'm sure it will be outstanding.
Thats the thing, it was never presented as an Introductory Price.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:49 AM
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I don't doubt the performance of the 24 as the 18 tested well on DB. Why would Nick throw this out there and say it is like having 4 of his 18's and have it flop? No way someone would do that. I am just curious on the exact amount, I don't know why, just curious. I am ready to order 4 more of my drivers but 2 of these are twice as much at $999 each. I guess the question becomes where are they 4 drivers better? 20hz and below, the whole range, etc.. Maybe they are like having 4 SI 18's above 20hz and 6 below? This is what I want to know. I know the spec lab showed more output below than dual LMS 5400's but they were not maxed out so one could boost the low end of each for both to be flat, the LMS needs more boost. We also have the FTW-21 for $600 which is a huge competitor, no? I wonder how they would compare because I really did forget about these two drivers. If the 24 has more low end than can Nick change to the parameters so I can model it better?
Beast had the HS24 is an optimally sized enclosure around 17cu.ft. but even as much bracing as Beast added, we all agreed it needed more. I had my LMS-5400s in 5 cu.ft. enclosure which is a good optimal size as well. Neither sub had DSP applied so we both agree they could have performed better but neither sub had an advantage on the other in this case. The HS24 had a good amount of power but the LMS-5400s probably could have stood to have more than 2,400w each from an SP2-8000 (I now run them with 4000w).

In my opinion, sans measurements, the HS24 sounded good from 10-100Hz with more output than the LMS-5400s. I was really surprised that the HS24 was that clean up to 100Hz; Beast didn't mention that nugget until a little later in the day. Below 10Hz the HS24 had output where the LMS-5400s didn't. Was some of it distortion as DSG postulates? Maybe but it was still impressive, which again is one of the things DSG postulates, that distortion could have made it seem more impressive. I'll say under 10Hz that I don't know if it was clean because I'm not used to hearing output that low. But from say 15-100Hz, the HS24 was just as clean as the LMS-5400s.

I don't know anything about the FTW-21 but I do agree that it is nice to have competition...maybe Mark should push the FTW more or have a Group Buy to get some interest up...or maybe he doesn't need to because it is already successful.
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Old 07-17-2014, 12:19 PM
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A couple more quick comments that should be obvious and then I'm done with discussing this with you. You still haven't made a single technical statement yet. If and when you do I'll discuss this with you in a technical manner.

1. The room position absolutely can cause +/- 15 db variance. I didn't assume that happened, you actually quoted me saying that much variance in this situation was not likely but the room absolutely is a contributing factor.

IT absolutely CAN but it absolutely DIDNT in this particular setup. I love repeating myself.

2. The room goes hand in hand with level matching and eq'ing a common response. Assuming one sub or the other was naturally playing stronger at a room mode frequency (even if there was NO variance due to position) the one that stirs up the modes more effectively is going to sound much more impressive.

Pretty obvious.

3. Distortion makes speakers sound much louder than speakers that don't distort as much. And since distortion isn't necessarily always unpleasant, the speaker with more distortion will usually sound more impressive, at least until you get into gross distortion levels up around 100 percent.

I will address this below

4. If you want your tracks analyzed, do it yourself and please feel free to post up any content that has less dynamic range if you can find it. That will give you a good basis to have a technical discussion. I've already provided a ton of info, almost none of it is opinion, I didn't make any of it up, most of it was originally posted by other people, people that include the designers and seller of this device. As far as I know I've provided ALL the info that currently available.

I don't need to analyze them as I have already seen them analyzed, just can't find where the graphs are. I know for a fact that your little kaiju track ranks towards the bottom of some of the tracks we ran the 24 through with no issues whatsoever.You've provided a ton of info that basically has no meaning. I have provided actual experience, NOT opinion. If you really think your technical findings you have posted benefit anything, I am sorry friend...

I think I've said 3 times already that it's no surprise this driver can move a lot of air. It's got a 24 inch cone, it should move a lot of air. But there is still NO EVIDENCE that it can do so with low distortion or even that the specs are realistic.
Here is your distortion reading from one of the ULF tracks we demoed. Via bossoboss:

Quote:
Here's the Dub Step SL graph again. There's a big hit @ 9 Hz and a HUGE hit @ 17.5 Hz. At the mic (LP) and there is no trace of harmonic distortion at levels that shut both 8KW amplifiers down.


I also think I have the close mic graph of the driver as well as room sweep that I can post later.
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Old 07-17-2014, 12:30 PM
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Yes, really. I just finished saying the sub with HIGHER distortion will usually be considered MORE IMPRESSIVE in a blind (no measurements) test. Distortion makes things louder, it adds all kinds of harmonics and other junk, and it's not necessarily unpleasant, but distortion is not accurate reproduction. In short term test like a one day gtg, gobs of distortion can sound very impressive.

We had accurate reproduction...just 15dB hot or so.

This clearly isn't going anywhere. I put the info out there and you guys can take it or leave it. I have no more info to present and apparently the opposition has no use for specs or measurements so there is no common ground here. Collectively you guys have called me ignorant, a troll and a geek but have provided no technical info or measurements. Quit quoting me and I'll quit quoting you.
It's because you come in here thinking we are a bunch of idiots that don't know what distortion is, or how to measure properly. I will reiterate, we had a $2,000 aco pacific rig there. You can't get much more accurate than that. We ran the measurements, and looked for distortion. We didn't see any. We level tested between the two systems, and got them awful close.

It appears you are a "Get that last word" type of chap so I know you will respond to this post, but just know that I have really nothing else to say to you, as I feel you are in here to disrupt Stereo Integrity at the core, and I am done playing your little game.

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Old 07-17-2014, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
It appears you are a "Get that last word" type of chap so I know you will respond to this post, but just know that I have really nothing else to say to you, as I feel you are in here to disrupt Stereo Integrity at the core, and I am done playing your little game.
If you keep quoting me and posting misleading and outright incorrect information I'm going to keep responding but at this point I would prefer if we could just stop. The track in your picture clearly has tons more dynamic range than the track I posted. If it was anywhere near as demanding it would be a solid dark purple line from the top to the bottom.

Compare this following picture to the bar with the green signal content in the right hand margin of your picture. Hunter clearly has WAY less dynamic range, these two songs are not even similar. Hunter is basically a pure sine wave in the bass, your track is not even close. Anyway, thanks for at least trying to come at this from a technical perspective, I appreciate that. And please post up your frequency sweep with THD info at 8000 watts, since that's the power level you claim to have been using and that's the proper way to measure distortion.



How is presenting technical information that was originally posted by SI and demanding current measurements "disrupting Stereo Integrity at the core"? If there's nothing to hide this information should have been done and published a year ago.

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Old 07-17-2014, 01:29 PM
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Are there any FTW-21 builds here that you know of?
I never did a build thread, but I have an FTW-21 in a 8 cu. ft. box (powered by a bridged QSC DCA3422) and it is amazing - it is a toss-up between it and my twin CS18.2's (quad 18" drivers). I am amazed that there is no love for this driver among the serious diy'ers here on AVS.

Jim
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:08 PM
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The track in your picture clearly has tons more dynamic range than the track I posted. If it was anywhere near as demanding it would be a solid dark purple line from the top to the bottom.

How is presenting technical information that was originally posted by SI and demanding current measurements "disrupting Stereo Integrity at the core"? If there's nothing to hide this information should have been done and published a year ago.
At no point did I ever say I wanted to compare that track to Hunter, I posted that to show the lack of harmonic distortion that would be present in a lesser quality driver at the excursion levels we were seeing during that demo.

Unlike you I am working my best at helping actually get this information posted. While I am working out how to get a box to Ricci for testing, you can bug off and find another thread to disrupt.

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Old 07-17-2014, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by zora View Post
I never did a build thread, but I have an FTW-21 in a 8 cu. ft. box (powered by a bridged QSC DCA3422) and it is amazing - it is a toss-up between it and my twin CS18.2's (quad 18" drivers). I am amazed that there is no love for this driver among the serious diy'ers here on AVS.

Jim
[SARCASM]Thanks for posting that Jim but the FTW-21 hasn't been tested by Ricci so I'm pretty sure the driver is crap! Do you have any measurements? Have you vetted all of the material you've put through it? We might actually consider it if it went through the proper AVS channels.[/SARCASM]
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:23 PM
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with a complex signal, the distortion products don't always present as harmonics. not something that would be audible to the ear unless very familiar with the track. probably would even sound 'better' in a simple a-b.

intermodulation distortion takes the form of f(1) +/- f(2)

obviously, i can't know if the signal was the same for both drivers under comparison, but there do appear to be some artifacts highlighted in red that don't show up in the lower half of the plot. the label is covering the 88hz region for the lms pair. as far as what can be seen there, it does look quite different from the 24.

again though, tough to compare with different frequency response and power into each set.

interesting stuff.

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Old 07-18-2014, 10:47 PM
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Interesting thoughts LTD.

Regarding the signal, it SHOULD have been the same to the amps although those two were different. The HS24 was run off a channel of a Peavey IPR-7500 (2000w) while my pair of LMS-5400s was powered by a channel each (2400w) from a SpeakerPower SP2-8000.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:10 PM
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just to be clear, i'm not suggesting that is good or bad because it all depends on how the measurements translate to experience (which is what i think you really meant when you said 'measurements don't matter'). for the type of content under test, those distortion products (if that's even what they are) didn't seem to impinge on the experience, so its more of just an observation vs. some sort of conclusion.

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Old 07-19-2014, 12:21 AM
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" I know I pulled a FR plot from Audacity, but can't seem to locate it... "


nice link. pretty intoxicating. i suspect this is the one. 17hz are the big hits on the low end.


of course the track blows all the peak/avg rules. bass peaks in green at 17hz and 34hz are 45-50db higher than the 'average' red line in the 200-800hz region where we tend to "set the volume". so even at a moderate listening level of 75db midrange, the bass is roaring in at 120-125db.


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Old 07-19-2014, 06:10 AM
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Curious....Why do bigger drivers excel at low frequencies as opposed to using the same amount of Vd in multiple smaller drivers?(LTD)

It would appear that in simulations there might be a very small advantage but when listing we tend to like the big drivers better. I know many that have said they love the FTW21's over other 18s for ULF. Then the SI 24 comes out and people are all saying the same thing.

It could be a design spec or something else. All I know is I am curious as to what it is exactly. The repetitive posting of why this or that is just going to go on and on. While I think measuring a system is something vital you should do I do believe in my ears also. SO once we measure 2 different drivers and they measure the same we can then go to other "devices," for measuring. My ears are the final device I use.

When are we going to get a group buy on the SP amps?
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Old 07-19-2014, 12:22 PM
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Me too

Quote:
Originally Posted by SXRDISBEST View Post
Are there any FTW-21 builds here that you know of?
I also have not gotten around to doing a build thread but I have 4 FTWs in an IB that are simply amazing. I need to get my measurements put up, but I will not be doing max output as they really get frightening at high levels...my mains cannot keep up at all either.
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