4 Pi vs DIY Sound Group's Fusion Sentinel 15" - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 297 Old 04-22-2013, 10:30 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,917
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Liked: 835
geddes uses the de250 in his summa. that cd is top notch. the others appear to be made the same and measure the same.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 297 Old 04-22-2013, 10:57 PM
Advanced Member
 
yelnatsch517's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash R View Post

It's not about bashing things although when I first started reseaching waveguides, I saw you and some others here arguing about whether you could take a trademarked name to market your kits. That was not a good introduction to DIYsoundgroup, to be honest.

A small legal mistake though that maybe you just didn't know. It didn't dissuade me but it was a red flag that made me raise my eyebrows.

I did consider buying a SEOS kit. In the end, however, I think Pi Speakers are better, higher quality designs.

There is the matter of the waveguide, which I think we've already argued. There is also the matter of confidence. Most of the SEOS designers are people I've never heard of before, unknown in the trade. They are probably great guys but I am not aware of any prior work. There are only two that I have even heard of before and both admit they have never designed a waveguide before.

Parham, on the other hand, has designed speakers like this all his life and is well respected. His statements carry a lot of clout. He makes a very good case that the H290C is a better waveguide. That plus the fact that his speakers sound great cinched it for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash R View Post

Good deal, "bhazard", that makes at least two of us. My opinion is as valid as yours and I could care less what you buy. People with sense can make what they will of all this.

Ash,
I hope you realize DIYsoundgroup is a not for profit organization...
Regardless of what you think about Pi vs SEOS, you are comparing a profit business with a nonprofit organization.
That alone is boundless levels of idiocy.rolleyes.gif
yelnatsch517 is offline  
post #93 of 297 Old 04-22-2013, 11:58 PM
Member
 
moxxy*mig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
How does one account for the "natural" response of the CD in the CD+WG measurements? Do you need a PWT measurement to isolate the CD contribution or...

Looking at B&C's spec sheet for the DE250, for example:
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), default quality

If I'm gonna go around measuring trough to peak, the CD itself is spec'd to already have a ~2db hump at 1.1k, the nice ~2.5db or so hump right at 4k and so on. Not sure how much smoothing is applied to the spec, or if was measured on a particular (internally resonating, ripple inducing, etc) horn, etc.
moxxy*mig is offline  
post #94 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 04:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
NicksHitachi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 3,485
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 100
I can't look away.....

Don't waste time reading signatures.....
NicksHitachi is offline  
post #95 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 05:00 AM
Senior Member
 
mobeer4don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 426
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

I can't look away.....

Reminds me of the Ford vs Chevy vs Ram truck debate around the office. I'm surrounded by rednecks....most of which refuse to recognize the superiority of the F150. wink.gif

At what point does personal preference outweigh measured (?) differences? I would love to see some folks try to ID which speaker is which in double-blind listening tests.
mobeer4don is offline  
post #96 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 06:33 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

geddes uses the de250 in his summa. that cd is top notch. the others appear to be made the same and measure the same.

Oh, I liked it I was just more impressed with my dual 2226's.
MKtheater is offline  
post #97 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 07:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
zheka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago burbs
Posts: 1,045
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post

I would love to see some folks try to ID which speaker is which in double-blind listening tests.

me too. though logistically ABX test may be difficult to do in a small room since positioning will matter, especially with speakers this large. But even blind audition along the lines of carp's speaker shootout would be nice.
A true double-blind test could be done outdoor with speakers behind opaque AT cover and listening position at least 25-30 feet away. That would be perfect.
zheka is offline  
post #98 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 07:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 426
You're just spinning your wheels Ash. The H290C also requires eq. Most any CD/waveguide will. Buy a dome tweeter if you want flat response. If the designer uses eq, there's nothing wrong with that provided the eq is consistent off axis, which it is in every case I've seen.

Dheflin83, there are vertical measurements for the speakers out there. Again, nonprofit org doesn't have the website fully up to date. And I don't see anything problematic in the verticals. There's nothing about the SEOS that would cripple it in the vertical direction anymore than the h290c. They're both about the same size.
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #99 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 08:23 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 403
Guys are debating about 2-3 dBs in response outdoors when in doors this is all shot to hell anyways. People realize that in real life in real rooms we would never be able to hear the differences as responses are concerned.
MKtheater is offline  
post #100 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 09:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 5,149
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked: 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Guys are debating about 2-3 dBs in response outdoors when in doors this is all shot to hell anyways. People realize that in real life in real rooms we would never be able to hear the differences as responses are concerned.

That's the common sense response of the day.


Even though the Fusion-15 Sentinel uses higher grade components than the standard 4 Pi, most probably wouldn't turn the 4 Pi up high enough in their home before distortion differences really showed up. Well, ChopShop cranked the Sentinels with all the power of a Behringer EP4000 until the amp actually clipped.......but that's not normal. biggrin.gif

The Sentinel frequency response will dip down into the upper 20's because it was designed to be run hard full range if needed. But most people running either model would likely be using a subwoofer anyway. So again, I say for the average Joe, the 4 Pi or Sentinel would be great unless you planned on using some crazy power. I haven't bashed any of these waveguide speakers from other companies because they're all good if you buy what you need. Shame that's not the case from the other side.
Erich H is online now  
post #101 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 09:09 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,917
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Liked: 835
"I was only looking at the polar plots, and only on what was shown in the "Waveguide Speaker Kit" pages, ie, not in the forum section."

for polar plots, smoothing is advantageous because it makes it easy to see the level to which the off axis performance is controlled (normalizing the off axis to the on axis response is even better as in the multi-colored plots), which is the whole point of off axis plots.

" Although the horizontal plots are more important, it's the vertical plots that will be more problematic."

no they won't. the placing of the vertical lobes in the 2226/ps75 -- seos12/360 combos is the same as wayne uses in the 4pi and follows the principle outlined by linkwitz for cancellation from two sources in an aes paper from long ago. the cancellations from center to center distances match the -6db points of the horn. in that way, they are similar to the 4pi design and take a different approach from axisymmetric horn designs such as what geddes employs.

i suggest that you go read the "rallying" thread on avs and the "econowave" thread at audiokarma. these horns and designs didn't just come out of nowhere, but incorporate many tried and proven principles that have been developed over a VERY long time by MANY different researchers and designers.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #102 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 09:56 AM
Member
 
djginwis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 55
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash R View Post

I think Pi Speakers has been in business since the 1970's, FWIW.

http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf

My mistake. I thought I read one of your posts stating Wayne had been building speakers for ten years. I didn't really go back and check on that, so thanks for the correction.
djginwis is offline  
post #103 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 10:07 AM
HOME THEATER CONTRACTOR
 
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 20,487
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 134 Post(s)
Liked: 530
I have worked with Erich's cabinets and speaker kits and I am thrilled with the value proposition he brings to the DIY crowd. I am putting 6 of his Alpha 8 kits (Matt G) together for a project today.

I also have the 4Pi's in my theater. Anyone who wants to bring three Sentinel 15s over to my place we could hook up some double throw double pole switches and do some A/B blind testing.
filtor1 likes this.
BIGmouthinDC is online now  
post #104 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 10:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lennon_68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: All alone in northern MN...
Posts: 1,946
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
I got my popcorn out and am really enjoying the show but feel compelled to point out that only one side in this argument has been negative... Seriously not sure what you're trying to achieve but it's obvious there's an agenda involved.
lennon_68 is offline  
post #105 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 10:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
zheka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago burbs
Posts: 1,045
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

I have worked with Erich's cabinets and speaker kits and I am thrilled with the value proposition he brings to the DIY crowd. I am putting 6 of his Alpha 8 kits (Matt G) together for a project today.

I also have the 4Pi's in my theater. Anyone who wants to bring three Sentinel 15s over to my place we could hook up some double throw double pole switches and do some A/B blind testing.

I was thinking about doing the same. but because the speakers will be at different positions with respect to the boundaries, it may not be difficult to tell them apart. I think true ABX should be done in environment where small placement differences do not matter.

I personally suspect that the two will sound very similar.
zheka is offline  
post #106 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 11:25 AM
Member
 
djginwis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 55
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I floated this idea over at PE Tech Talk, but it sank pretty quick. What about dogs? They hear so much better than humans, couldn't a dog be trained to pick the better of two speakers? The only problem I see is a matter of taste. I mean, who knows what a dog finds pleasing? After all, they do eat cat doo-doo. Please comment.
djginwis is offline  
post #107 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 01:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bass addict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: A padded room
Posts: 3,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by djginwis View Post

I floated this idea over at PE Tech Talk, but it sank pretty quick. What about dogs? They hear so much better than humans, couldn't a dog be trained to pick the better of two speakers?

Sure, and after that we can ask two blind men which projector they like better. rolleyes.gif

Achievement Unlocked

Psychotic Episode Averted

bass addict is offline  
post #108 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 01:33 PM
Advanced Member
 
yelnatsch517's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by djginwis View Post

I floated this idea over at PE Tech Talk, but it sank pretty quick. What about dogs? They hear so much better than humans, couldn't a dog be trained to pick the better of two speakers? The only problem I see is a matter of taste. I mean, who knows what a dog finds pleasing? After all, they do eat cat doo-doo. Please comment.

I was actually thinking about which professions have the people with best hearing.
I would think that instrument tuners, ie. old school piano tuners using tuning forks would rank pretty high.

Why don't we get a room of the top piano tuners and ask them to rate speakers. This would be interesting.
yelnatsch517 is offline  
post #109 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 01:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bass addict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: A padded room
Posts: 3,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

I was actually thinking about which professions have the people with best hearing.
I would think that instrument tuners, ie. old school piano tuners using tuning forks would rank pretty high.

Why don't we get a room of the top piano tuners and ask them to rate speakers. This would be interesting.

And my point is; who the hell cares? If you can't hear the difference what does it matter? I'm not willing to spend twice the price on a product if I can't tell a difference; regardless of what the piano tuner tells me.

Achievement Unlocked

Psychotic Episode Averted

bass addict is offline  
post #110 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 01:53 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 403
They could sound different, just that this argument over peaks in a response making a speaker better is crap. People won't hear that in a real room. If they think they can I would love to blind test them! These responses are so close it won't matter. The differences will be elsewhere and based on the listener.
MKtheater is offline  
post #111 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 03:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
yelnatsch517's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

And my point is; who the hell cares? If you can't hear the difference what does it matter? I'm not willing to spend twice the price on a product if I can't tell a difference; regardless of what the piano tuner tells me.

Realistically, I probably a select few people would care. I certainly wouldn't. I was just saying that it would be an interesting experiment, that is all.
I quoted djginwis purposely as his idea of using dogs is even crazier. I should have noted that my post was actually off topic. It doesn't actually really pertain to anything in this thread besides what djginwis mentioned. smile.gif
yelnatsch517 is offline  
post #112 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 06:46 PM
 
Ash R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a question for SEOS experts but I hesitated asking here because I don't want another mudfest. Queried on the Pi forum and this was the response:

http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=18483&start=10

I'm sure Parham is right about measurement variables but it just seems to me there should be more common ground. Why then are there so many varied charts for the same waveguide?

Look back at Bagby's chart, for example. It has the same 4khz peak as Bill's and Brad's but doesn't droop 10db up high like all others.
Look at Tuxedocivic's chart. It has the 10db droop like Bill's and Brad's but the peaks are smoother.
We've all seen Bill's and Brad's charts so no need to rehash here.

Thoughts?
Ash R is offline  
post #113 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 06:46 PM
Member
 
djginwis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 55
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
And my post was just an attempt to add a bit of humor.
djginwis is offline  
post #114 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 07:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 426
Ash, the FR I posted looks different because its a different CD, so ill leave that out for now. I'd post measurements of the DE250 / DNA-360 but I'm away for work and don't have a full set of polars anyways. So here goes based on what I've seen and measured.

The SEOS / DE250 combo does in fact have a board peak at 4khz as shown in the Bagby measurement posted here. It's not a problem because its consistent off axis. So if you eq it into place, its fine, it's eq'ed evenly. It would be bad if it diverged or converged off axis, like the Geddes on axis hole. But it doesn't. So the designers go ahead and eq it away. Myself, I use a parallel notch out in front of the high pass something like 0.5mH, 5uF, 10ohm. Can't recall the exact components. Other designers have other ways of doing it I'm sure.

The droop in the top octave is a little harder to explain. This is largely, IMO, a matter of calibration of test equipment and slight angled mic placement. That's the best answer I have. Could be CD variation too, I dunno. But the calibration and angles are the most sensitive in that range. Overall though I think if you looked at the reliable measurements you'd see this isn't that big of a discrepancy.

The low end hash in Bill and Brads measurements are strictly this, Brad's is wrong and Bills I'm not sure. That's actually the first I've seen Bills. I was involved in Brad's work and immediately warned him something was wrong. If you look at his thread, I also pointed out the identical issue in the woofer measurement. We all felt it was probably electrical, laptops are prone to this issue. The bottom end hash is just not true. Unfortunately Wayne has used these openly admitted suspect measurements to advance his product, and he knows better.

Now if we look at th
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #115 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 07:57 PM
 
Ash R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I agree with everything you said except the part where you said Wayne was using those charts unfairly. Did you write him? I'm sure if you do you'll get a good explanation. I've talked to him in person and he is a passionate but reasonable. I know he truly thinks the SEOS waveguide is too short and that's the cause for the peaks.
Ash R is offline  
post #116 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 07:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 426
Now if you look at the comment about measurement systems, Wayne makes a good point, although perhaps not as big of deal as it might seem. I believe Jeff and bill are using omni mic, Matt uses REW, and I use HolmImpulse. All the other designs I've seen by a few of the more casual guys have been with REW. Ill speak to HolmImpulse. It uses a swept sine and I've adjusted the program settings to get something like 20,000 data points. I use the windowing about 1ms before the first reflection in the impulse response, usually 8ms as I usually measure outdoors. I don't use any smoothing. Occasionally ill show a full range smoothed nearfield response only to show the low end response.

This technique has the advantage of removing reflections, no smoothing over important detail, at the cost of a smeared low end response. My measurements are useless below 200hz, unless I take specific measurements to get that data.

If ever you see evenly spaced dips and peaks you gotta ask, is this a reflection. Often it is. Next, where is the reflection? If its a nearby boundary in the setup, look for better data. If its a reflection in the waveguide, it better be very small, otherwise its a problem. Foam in the throat anyone wink.gif
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #117 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 07:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 426
Now if you look at the comment about measurement systems, Wayne makes a good point, although perhaps not as big of deal as it might seem. I believe Jeff and bill are using omni mic, Matt uses REW, and I use HolmImpulse. All the other designs I've seen by a few of the more casual guys have been with REW. Ill speak to HolmImpulse. It uses a swept sine and I've adjusted the program settings to get something like 20,000 data points. I use the windowing about 1ms before the first reflection in the impulse response, usually 8ms as I usually measure outdoors. I don't use any smoothing. Occasionally ill show a full range smoothed nearfield response only to show the low end response.

This technique has the advantage of removing reflections, no smoothing over important detail, at the cost of a smeared low end response. My measurements are useless below 200hz, unless I take specific measurements to get that data.

If ever you see evenly spaced dips and peaks you gotta ask, is this a reflection. Often it is. Next, where is the reflection? If its a nearby boundary in the setup, look for better data. If its a reflection in the waveguide, it better be very small, otherwise its a problem. Foam in the throat anyone wink.gif
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #118 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 08:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 426
I haven't written him yet, I just learned of his post yesterday and I'm away right now. Believe it or not I'm writing all this from a phone.
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #119 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 08:06 PM
 
Ash R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I remember too that Parham said all waveguides have peaks but long ones have them at low enough frequency they aren't in range. Some are more sensitive to crossover than others. All are caused by internal reflections so you don't want them in the middle of the range because that means there are lots of reflection modes.
Ash R is offline  
post #120 of 297 Old 04-23-2013, 08:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 426
How much of a frequency difference does he think 2" makes?

Take a look at his waveguide. I see a broad peak from 2 to 5khz. Could be two small reflections. I also see a peak at 800hz, dip at 1200hz, peak at 2khz, dip at 3khz, peak at 5khz. I think there's a reflection there. I'd go as far as to say more serious than any reflection the SEOS has, and I'm not saying it has one.
tuxedocivic is online now  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off