4 Pi vs DIY Sound Group's Fusion Sentinel 15" - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 297 Old 04-19-2013, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm curious as to how the 4 Pi compareto DIY Sound Group's Fusion Sentinel 15".

has anyone heard both?
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post #2 of 297 Old 04-19-2013, 05:14 PM
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I don't think anyone has done a comparison.
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post #3 of 297 Old 04-19-2013, 05:49 PM
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Where are you in PA? I have a sentinel front stage you could check out. biggrin.gif
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post #4 of 297 Old 04-19-2013, 06:01 PM
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MTG90 built a 2226h/dna360/seos12 and compared it to the sentinel kit. http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=141.0

The variable between the seos speaker MTG90 built and the upgraded 4Pi are the crossover and horn since the CDs measure almost the same. Not a direct comparison but might give you insight into the differences between the 15" drivers.
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post #5 of 297 Old 04-19-2013, 06:10 PM
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More similar than not. Aesthetics, price, and low frequency goals are probably the best way to decide.
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post #6 of 297 Old 04-19-2013, 10:46 PM
 
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post #7 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 05:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Where are you in PA? I have a sentinel front stage you could check out. biggrin.gif

I'm in Pottstown...I'd love to hear them before building a set!
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post #8 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies guys...I've checked out the links.

Their performance seem close...so the Sentinels looks like the better value. Included baffle and available flat pack helps also!
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post #9 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 08:42 AM
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MTG90 did a great job on the Sentinels. The reason for the lower cost is because all those speakers are priced at break even costs because they are DIY community driven designs, not 'for profit' designs. But they lack nothing.

By the way, the B&C looks really good with the gloss finish waveguide. biggrin.gif
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post #10 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 08:59 AM
 
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Not sure I would agree their performance seems close. Did you see the chart from Bill Waslo? It shows regular 5db peaks in the SEOS.
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post #11 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 09:07 AM
 
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...also see the price for each kit is the same $400.
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post #12 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 09:32 AM
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Do the Pi kits come with the pre-cut wood?
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post #13 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 09:45 AM
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No, have to build your own cabbies.

A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free.

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post #14 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 09:50 AM
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Here is just the kit with assembled crossover. No upgrades. $400

http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/3/products_id/108

Here is the assembled completely built product. No upgrades. $1000

http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/1/products_id/105

I did not see an option for precut baffles.
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post #15 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 09:52 AM
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"Ash R", the Sentinel was designed by MTG90, not Bill Waslo. The charts you linked weren't from any speaker kit. The one response curve was done by a forum member during a crossover experiment after he clearly said he's never designed a crossover before......and before it was finished.

The Sentinel is a completed kit and uses a B&C woofer and the DNA-360, not the Eminence woofer and Eminence compression driver. Nothing wrong with Eminence, but the 15" B&C woofer is a nicer more expensive woofer. The kit also uses the heavier 15 and 16 gauge inductors.

I think the standard Eminence 4pi might be a closer match to the Karma-15 that uses a nice smooth Celestion woofer.

Hope I was able to help clear up any confusion you might have. In the end, I think either speaker brand would be a good choice. The Sentinel just happens to use beefier components, which some people may or may not need. The guys that built them were very pleased that they could be run full range and handle ridiculous amounts of power and still sound extremely clean and clear. No doubt MTG90 designed a heck of a speaker.
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post #16 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 10:06 AM
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I think filtor1 pointed out an important point, which is that the 4pi comes with an assembled crossover. But, the sentinel has an available flat pack. So, I think it just depends on if you are more comfortable with wood work or assembling the crossover. I believe the Sentinel is probably the better value but the 4pi kit is still one hell of a good value also.
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post #17 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 10:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The charts you linked weren't from any speaker kit. The one response curve was done by a forum member during a crossover experiment after he clearly said he's never designed a crossover before......

That's true. The chart only shows the SEOS waveguide.

...which is a fundamental component of the speaker.

If you aren't comparing waveguides, what are you comparing? Other than that, the speakers are much the same.
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post #18 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

"Ash R", the Sentinel was designed by MTG90, not Bill Waslo. The charts you linked weren't from any speaker kit. The one response curve was done by a forum member during a crossover experiment after he clearly said he's never designed a crossover before......and before it was finished.

I think Ash R was referring to this chart:


which appears to be generated from Bill's Designer 10 zip.

That's the ripple that Wayne uses as proof when he describe the SEOS12 as a truncated horn in Ash's link. Presumably it's also those ripples that Wayne is against correcting with EQ/XO.

Here's hoping that this doesn't get ugly like the last time Pi and SEOS stuff was directly compared...
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post #19 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 10:55 AM
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You can get the Sentinel crossovers assembled if needed. MTG90 said he will do that for under $20. He's assembled some for other forum members and even other speaker models.
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post #20 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

You can get the Sentinel crossovers assembled if needed. MTG90 said he will do that for under $20. He's assembled some for other forum members and even other speaker models.

I accidentally sounded like a Staples commercial when I read that.

"Wow! That's a low price!"
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post #21 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 12:20 PM
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One difference worth considering is the box size and the LF extension. 4pi is bigger and goes lower.

No matter which one you go with, think about using JBL 2226H woofer upgrade. You can find one used for not much more than what the eminence or the B&C woofers cost. I am using Erich's DNA360 compression drivers and JBL 2226 woofers in my set of 4 Pis.
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post #22 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moxxy*mig View Post

I think Ash R was referring to this chart:


Here's hoping that this doesn't get ugly like the last time Pi and SEOS stuff was directly compared...

As Bill said in his response, measurements were under many different conditions using different compression drivers and at different angles. Of course there will be some measurements that look different from others when you use different CD's and different angles. When someone searches and picks 2 measurements that don't match up with anything else, you have to question why.

There's a response curve posted from when Brad was working on a speaker. Brad clearly said he had never designed a speaker before and was starting from nothing. And I think he was also new to testing gear. So you have to ask, why would someone pick that curve out of hundreds to represent a waveguide, and then bash it? Pretty simple really.

As stated earlier, the Sentinel is an incredible speaker and it's measurements, along with the waveguides are clearly shown on the site. No cherry picking.....the final deal. Of course those final measurements never seem to show up that other site. Strange isn't it. biggrin.gif



Zheka, the Sentinel can be run full range, and can be built in a larger enclosure. I think the in room measurements from one forum member had a response down in the low 30's, maybe even high 20's, I'd have to double check. I think the OP might be talking about the 4Pi with the Eminence woofer though, which would likely be closer to the Karma-15.
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post #23 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moxxy*mig View Post

I think Ash R was referring to this chart:


which appears to be generated from Bill's Designer 10 zip.

That's the ripple that Wayne uses as proof when he describe the SEOS12 as a truncated horn in Ash's link. Presumably it's also those ripples that Wayne is against correcting with EQ/XO.

Here's hoping that this doesn't get ugly like the last time Pi and SEOS stuff was directly compared...

I'm not sure that's not a reflection contaminating the measurement. Or the compression driver. Here's the SEOS 12 outdoors.

rawmeasurements-1.png

Flattens out very nicely with three parts and hold true off axis to 90 degrees.
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post #24 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 12:55 PM
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With DNA-205 I should add.
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post #25 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Zheka, the Sentinel can be run full range, and can be built in a larger enclosure. I think the in room measurements from one forum member had a response down in the low 30's, maybe even high 20's, I'd have to double check.
sure. but if you compare stock setups, they may sound different if only for the difference in tuning. It is moot point anyway since more often than not they will be run with subs anyway. In practical terms the size difference may be more important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I think the OP might be talking about the 4Pi with the Eminence woofer though, which would likely be closer to the Karma-15.
I agree. the Senteniel has better quality components than basic 4pi . That's why I did not buy a kit from Wayne. I was able to get DNA360 and 2226H pretty much for the same price.
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post #26 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foraye View Post

I'm in Pottstown...I'd love to hear them before building a set!

I'm in Thornton, PA just outside west Chester. You're welcome to come down and check them out. biggrin.gif

For what it's worth I have extension down to 19hz (-2db) with a pair of these in my room. I'm very happy with the purchase and would recommend them.
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post #27 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 06:06 PM
 
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Bill Waslo is a well respected designer of measurement gear so I don't think I would dismiss his measurements as contaminated by reflections. I expect he would do a better job than that. Besides, it doesn't show up in just one of his measurements. The 5db ripple shows up in all his measurements:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=56.msg864#msg864

One cannot say those measurements were "cherry picked" when there are so many measurements with peaks in the same place. Even the ones that were smoothed have peaks in the same place.
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post #28 of 297 Old 04-20-2013, 07:38 PM
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The first one definitely has a reflection in it, as there's a slight ripple. Sometimes I leave a little reflection in the measurement. But you're right that those both are ugly responses. Can't recall seeing those before. Bills post also acknowledges those look a little off.

The reality is though, the SEOS looks a whole lot better than that on all other measurements I've seen. The DNA-350 has some notches (3) that are quite slight above about 5khz I believe. Otherwise all the other CDs I've seen measured on it are really smooth, off axis too.

What is most important Ash, is the final result in the design. It's good to pick a design with detailed measurements that show even off axis behaviors, good on axis FR, a wide vertical lobe, etc. you won't get good results if the waveguide can't do it. Like a lot of round waveguides. Both the SEOS and the Pi (H290 or something, can't recall) are good at doing this. It's been noted that the Pi has slightly narrower directivity, like 10 degrees. Depending on the application, one may be preferred, but generally negligible. For me, a little wider from the SEOS is preferred cause I have 8' wide seating and a 10' viewing distance. I also like to cross low.

They're honestly very similar and are state of the art IMO. Well, maybe a SEOS 24 is state of the art! We'll find out soon biggrin.gif
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post #29 of 297 Old 04-21-2013, 11:12 AM
 
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When I was researching speakers to buy, I saw Brad Horstkotte's measurements, and your reply to him was the same as it is here: You blamed reflections for the ripple.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1422024/seos-12-dna-360-jbl-2226-j-build/90#post_22389243

Brad said his measurements were outdoors so I do not think reflections caused the ripple. Plus they appear to be like Bill Waslo's measurements. Peaks at the same frequencies.

Parham says they are internal reflections from standing waves. His experience with horns like these swayed me and I decided to purchase 4pi speakers from him, with JBL 2226 and DE250 drivers.

He agreed to make a front baffle for me for $50.00, which isn't listed on his website but is available.

I think this is the best value going because his upgrades are not expensive. He doesn't charge $500 extra for the JBL woofer so he must have a good volume discount.

I highly recommend you consider the 4pi with upgrades. It really is the reference standard speaker that the SEOS line cloned. With the ultra-smooth H290C waveguide, this speaker is the best on the market, in my opinion.
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post #30 of 297 Old 04-21-2013, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash R View Post

When I was researching speakers to buy, I saw Brad Horstkotte's measurements, and your reply to him was the same as it is here: You blamed reflections for the ripple.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1422024/seos-12-dna-360-jbl-2226-j-build/90#post_22389243

Brad said his measurements were outdoors so I do not think reflections caused the ripple. Plus they appear to be like Bill Waslo's measurements. Peaks at the same frequencies.

Parham says they are internal reflections from standing waves. His experience with horns like these swayed me and I decided to purchase 4pi speakers from him, with JBL 2226 and DE250 drivers.

He agreed to make a front baffle for me for $50.00, which isn't listed on his website but is available.

I think this is the best value going because his upgrades are not expensive. He doesn't charge $500 extra for the JBL woofer so he must have a good volume discount.

I highly recommend you consider the 4pi with upgrades. It really is the reference standard speaker that the SEOS line cloned. With the ultra-smooth H290C waveguide, this speaker is the best on the market, in my opinion.

have you heard one yet? i havent heard either, just saying. rolleyes.gif

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