Car Subs for my new theater - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 65 Old 04-22-2013, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a pair of infinity kappa perfect 10.1 subs in a sealed box wired up in serial running off a behringer ep2000 amp.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Sjy8DFnMz7I/p_108PER101/Infinity-Kappa-Perfect-10-1.html

At 8 ohms, bridged they should be fed around 1000W RMS (according to the manual, which I know over states the case)

Bottom line, the subs don't seem that loud. I have an old 60W home audio sub sitting in the same room that seems to put out more oomph.

What am I doing wrong? Everything seems to be set up correctly. The source is coming from my denon 2312 receiver off the sub preout, RCA to XLR adapter fed into the input to the amp.

I assumed the 2 10s with 1000 watts would be crazy loud... Should I buy a new box with a port? Maybe return the amp and go another direction? Help please!
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post #2 of 65 Old 04-22-2013, 03:18 PM
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The Ep1500 can put out 800 watts at 8ohms bridged.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/855865/measuring-amplifiers/0_100#post_10749998

 

Here is the EP2500 which can put out 1300 watts at 8 ohms bridged.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/855865/measuring-amplifiers/0_100#post_10755565

 

The Ep2000 should be somewhere in between. How big is your room? A room and a car is two VERY different sizes, it takes a lot of drivers to pressurize a room compared to a car. Two 10" drivers is not going to put out lots of spl especially in a sealed enclosure (maybe at 40hz and up...). Another possibility is that you are not used to the frequency response of your new subs. Your old sub could have a boomy peaky response which most people are used to

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post #3 of 65 Old 04-22-2013, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I am building a dedicated theater it is 18' long by 13' wide.

However, right now I have a large living room that is open to my kitchen and eat in kitchen with cathedral ceilings... sitting there is a small 60W sub just to make the small surround setup sound reasonable. That is the sub that actually sounds pretty boomy. I set up my two 10s next to it and just moved the input over to the new setup just to make sure it worked. I was surprised at how loud the old sub (which couldn't have cost more than $200) was compared to subs that cost $700 plus a $300 amp.

It will likely by much louder in my theater... but wondering if I should change the box or do something different. The theater is currently studded, with wires being run...
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post #4 of 65 Old 04-22-2013, 03:46 PM
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If you bought a pre made box perhaps it is undersized?

The level may not be set properly from the receiver to the amp, you could try boosting it at the receiver.

I would double check every setting on the amp and reciever before running out to buy a ported box.

What 60 watt sub are you comparing to?
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post #5 of 65 Old 04-22-2013, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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it is an infinity bu-1
Here is a pic of my subs in the box.

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post #6 of 65 Old 04-22-2013, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I turned the sub level on the receiver all the way up. I even got the speaker to clip a little bit with the amp gain all the way up. I'm pretty sure its being driven pretty hard...
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post #7 of 65 Old 04-22-2013, 03:59 PM
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Yeah i would check the levels on the receiver.

Receivers and pro amps generally like to see different input levels so you might have to crank up the sub pre out.

There may also be something wrong with the amp, or it may not be bridged properly.

You can also take a look at the manual for the infinity's to see what they recommend for box size.

Edit: Didn't see your last post disregard the receiver levels.
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post #8 of 65 Old 04-22-2013, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I searched around re: preamp output level on consumer receivers to pro amps, the consensus seemed to be that there is no problem there. I am not sure what balanced and unbalanced inputs are, but should I use the input that isn't xlr. not sure what the name of it is...

you can see the jumper settings... I think its all set up right...
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post #9 of 65 Old 04-22-2013, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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can someone look at this also... do i need to do something special to the xlr adapter I have based on what this says... from the behringer manual
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post #10 of 65 Old 04-22-2013, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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on even further review, it looks like the adapter i bought already has pin 1 grounded to pin 3.

So.... I'm stuck. How can I tell if everything is working the way its supposed to...
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post #11 of 65 Old 04-22-2013, 07:54 PM
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I think xlr may be more useful in the pro audio world but i'll have to read up on that myself. I personally haven't touched the xlr in's on my pro amp because the 1/4" inputs we're far more convenient.

Try the 1/4" inputs with an rca to 1/4" connector.
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post #12 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

I think xlr may be more useful in the pro audio world but i'll have to read up on that myself. I personally haven't touched the xlr in's on my pro amp because the 1/4" inputs we're far more convenient.

Try the 1/4" inputs with an rca to 1/4" connector.
In a perfect world there would be nothing but XLR. 100% of noise issues, be it RFI, EMI or ground loops, can be traced to the use of unbalanced connections. The pro-audio world recognized that circa 1970, adopting a clean sheet of paper philosophy that within a very short time frame virtually eliminated the use of unbalanced connections, starting with the microphones, extending through the signal chain to the power amps. If consumer audio had done the same there would be no "I've got hum" threads.
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I turned the sub level on the receiver all the way up. I even got the speaker to clip a little bit with the amp gain all the way up. I'm pretty sure its being driven pretty hard..
If you mean that you saw the amp clip indicator light up you are getting adequate input signal. Just don't expect a car sub intended to fill a 200 cubic foot car with sound to fill a 2000 cubic foot room with sound.

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post #13 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 07:11 AM
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In a perfect world there would be nothing but XLR. 100% of noise issues, be it RFI, EMI or ground loops, can be traced to the use of unbalanced connections. The pro-audio world recognized that circa 1970, adopting a clean sheet of paper philosophy that within a very short time frame virtually eliminated the use of unbalanced connections, starting with the microphones, extending through the signal chain to the power amps. If consumer audio had done the same there would be no "I've got hum" threads.

+++++++1
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Just don't expect a car sub intended to fill a 200 cubic foot car with sound to fill a 2000 cubic foot room with sound.

The above statement does not hold true for all car subs wink.gif

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post #14 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

The above statement does not hold true for all car subs wink.gif
Perhaps not for all auto sound sub drivers, but pretty much for all auto sound subs, which rely on cabin gain for response below 60Hz or so, and since they have that cabin gain they can work in very small enclosures. Those drivers might provide adequate output in a larger room where cabin gain is a non factor, as with the OPs room, but that means a much larger box than what his drivers are currently in.

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post #15 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 08:07 AM
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I have a pair of infinity kappa perfect 10.1 subs in a sealed box wired up in serial running off a behringer ep2000 amp.

Those kappas are ridiculously sensitive at 93dB. If I were you, I'd go ported with them in an HT setup and room your size.

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post #16 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Those kappas are ridiculously sensitive at 93dB.
They would be if that spec was honest, but it isn't. Actual sensitivity at 1 watt is 84dB, at 2.83v (2 watts) 87dB. mad.gif
It actually models pretty well in 1.3 cu ft (net) vented tuned to 27Hz, but the required 32 inch long 4" round port will take the size up quite a bit. In just about any size sealed cab f3 won't be lower than 50Hz, which is perfect in the intended auto sound application, but it just doesn't cut it for HT.

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post #17 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 10:33 AM
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In a perfect world there would be nothing but XLR. 100% of noise issues, be it RFI, EMI or ground loops, can be traced to the use of unbalanced connections. The pro-audio world recognized that circa 1970, adopting a clean sheet of paper philosophy that within a very short time frame virtually eliminated the use of unbalanced connections, starting with the microphones, extending through the signal chain to the power amps. If consumer audio had done the same there would be no "I've got hum" threads.

I wonder why they didn't? Cost?

I think the op recognizes that 2 10's in a 2 cube sealed box aren't going to be as good as a massive 15" or 18" Subwoofer. The bigger issue here is there seems to be more more output coming from an 8" 60 watt ported sub than the sealed 10's.

I've modeled an 8 inch infinity with 60 watts in 1 cu ft and 2 cu ft ported boxes and while it was possible to surpass the output of the sealed 10's 2 cu ft, (the 10's had 300 watts before excursion) it only happened at 50hz by a db or 2 with a high tune and very peaky response.

Granted that was an 8 inch car sub so grain of salt, perhaps the op's 60w 8 inch is more effecient and has noticeably more output at 50 hz than the Infinity Beta 8 i modeled.

Still those 2 10's should be kicking the crap out of that ported 8" below 40hz.

Edit: It actually looks like the 8" ported could get near the performance at 40 hz as well in a 1.5 ft box but thats with a 5db peak and it's down 10db from the sealed at 30hz and a hipass filter lowers the 8's by a couple db as well.
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post #18 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 10:37 AM
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They would be if that spec was honest, but it isn't. Actual sensitivity at 1 watt is 84dB, at 2.83v (2 watts) 87dB

oops...my bad! my eyes drooled looking at the 90+ dB sensitivity in the listed t/s specs in the useer manual. Didnt read the 2.83v

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post #19 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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So bottom line? What the hell do I do? I think I may return the amp and just buy something else.

Does anyone have any experience outputting from receiver to a behringer amp?
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post #20 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 02:38 PM
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Here is a simulation of your 2 drivers in a sealed enclosure. I don't know what the dimensions of the enclosure you are using so I just guessed 1.5cu ft.

 

 

That is with 700 watts and xmax is reached at 20hz. The Ep2000 will power it perfectly fine. If you have a SPL meter you can check what kind of levels you are getting nearfield. A quick way to see what kind of voltage you are getting from the lfe output of the receiver is to use a multimeter. Set the receiver to 0db (whatever reference is) and play a 60hz sine wave through the receiver, measure the A/C  voltage on the lfe output. Make sure all speakers are disconnected!

 

These drivers model pretty good in a ported enclosure tuned to 25hz with 1000 watts. If you don't plan to buy new drivers I would go with a ported enclosure to give you the most spl.

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post #21 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

I wonder why they didn't? Cost?
Compatibility with existing gear. At that time the first true high end pro-sound mixing consoles were just appearing, as were low impedance balanced mics rugged enough for the stage, notably the Shure SM 57 and 58. There was no major need to maintain compatibility with older gear as that older gear didn't really exist, but it was built in anyway, as it was a simple matter to incorporate both XLR and 1/4" TRS, and the TRS could operate balanced with a TRS plug or unbalanced with a TS plug.
Consumer gear ignored the noise issues caused by unbalanced connections, as the cable lengths used tended to be too short and the number of components too few for it to be 'worth fixing'. The crap didn't really hit the fan until the introduction of cable TV and powered subs, both of which created multiple long ground pathways that were pretty much poster children of what not to do where noise is concerned. But by then it was too late to go to balanced connections, rendering everything connected with RCA jacks and plugs obsolete.

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post #22 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Should I buy a direct box... something like this? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SDirect/
that will increase the signal and turn it into a balanced signal to feed into my amp...

That seems to be the solution. Can anyone find one that has a rca input?
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post #23 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 05:12 PM
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I just noticed you have the Denon 2312 which is the same receiver I have. It can output enough voltage for my ep4000. I'm using a cable I built myself to go from rca to xlr. The lfe output measures 1.4v at 0db and the sub trim also at 0db.
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post #24 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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so maybe my only problem is i need more and bigger subs. Ha! Good thing I am wiring my room up for 2. I still may buy a ported box to get a bit more boom out of them. Since I am in the DIY section, wheres the best place to find a dual 10'' enclosure thats ported...
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post #25 of 65 Old 04-23-2013, 11:31 PM
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I still may buy a ported box to get a bit more boom out of them

Pre-made ported box?? Tuned to what??

I think let's put things in real and actionable perspective. What do you want? Extension, SQ, SPL, and size constraints... what is the target usage i.e. movies, music? If hybrid use, what percentage goes to movies and what to music?

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post #26 of 65 Old 04-24-2013, 01:26 AM
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I don't know of anyone selling a dual 10" ported enclosure. You could ask one of your local cabinet makers or car audio shops to custom build one for you but it might cost you a pretty penny.

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post #27 of 65 Old 04-24-2013, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
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90% movies and games 10% music

There are a ton of car boxes on amazon, but I'm not sure it's worth making a change. I'm going to get my room finished, then I can make some more decisions on subs
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post #28 of 65 Old 04-24-2013, 04:53 AM
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If you look at the WinISD sims posted by Mrkazador up in the posts, you can use your current subs for a ported box tuned to 25Hz and that's close to the resonant frequency of these drivers. I don't know if that simulation is with 2 drivers or one. If it is one driver, then you can make another identical box using other driver and add 4-6 dB of extra output. You will get enough SPL down to 20Hz depending on where you place the subs in your room. It will serve your movies/gaming and music needs considerably and very cost effectively.

DIY isn't that difficult and anybody can learn unless of course you don't want to get your hands dirty wink.gif

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post #29 of 65 Old 04-24-2013, 05:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I've done most of my basement construction project myself... So I think I can handle it. I need to figure out how to build a box if I go that route. I can get a ported box for $50 on amazon... But I'm sure it won't be perfect
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post #30 of 65 Old 04-24-2013, 05:31 AM
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I can get a ported box for $50 on amazon

The problem is you don't know what the tuning frequency of those boxes are. Also, they are not braced at all. With your woodworking skills, you can make a custom box within a day max. Movie sound is poles apart compared to 2-channel stereo sound of car audio. A misaligned ported box in a car is very forgiving coz of cabin gain but extremely unforgiving in an HT setup.

Very rarely you hear a song that digs down to mid 30hz region in car audio. Whereas, movies have tons of subsonic content. At 20Hz, the wavelength grows to as long as 17 meters. A sub box aimed for movies that is not well braced will resonate badly when exposed to ultra low bass frequencies yeilding ugly response.

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