Help with LMS Ultra 5400 Enclosure with "practical" LFE Extension - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 55 Old 04-29-2013, 11:33 PM
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Personally I would skip ported or a PR set-up for the LMS Ultra, this driver's best application is in a small sealed enclosure with a bunch of power. The exception may be the Gjallarhorn‏ but that is an entirely different beast then what is being discussed here but may be bested suited for your application.

The port length on the TC website has to do with port velocity, you don't want it to sing it's own tune. With the dimensions of the ports TC recommends you are right at about 25 m/s peak at 10hz with a 10 hpf and 2500 watts. It looks good though, +3db at 20hz and +6 at 10hz with an spl advantage until 40hz over a 4cuft sealed enclosure with the same power. Your going to get closer though with some added boost down low for the sealed.

I looked at the PR option when I built my LMS Ultra's but at close to $600 for the pair I figured I might as well get a second LMS instead which dominates the PR enclosure if you can feed it double the power.

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #32 of 55 Old 04-29-2013, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmm... so figure a one-way limit of 38.1mm for the LMS then.

According to what I've been reading, port compression begins to take affect at 10 m/s, becomes noticeable at 17 m/s, and becomes a real hindrance after 26 m/s. When using the passive's one way excursion for xmax as an equal comparison to port compression, it's clear the PR enclosure saves a ton of space, over 50%.

I'm going with an 8.2 ft3 enclosure and two mms-maxed PRs powered by the EP4000 with about 1900W RMS and 2500W max into 4 ohm bridged, I believe. That'd get 13.78 Hz tuning, 116dB@16 Hz, and 117dB@20Hz. This should get the audible range right up there with two sealed LMS's.

If I need more SPL down the road, I can drop the mms and get the CV-5000 amp with 5000W max, for 17.24 Hz tuning and 121dB@20Hz, at least on paper so to speak.

The wood's already been cut and having the holes CNC cut tomorrow.

EDIT: Thanks mjaudio. I'm getting the PRs for a buck each. Two sealed would clearly have tons more SPL in the upper frequencies, but that range would all get EQ'd down for flat in-room response. The real trade off for the bass reflex is losing tons below the tuning frequency, <12 Hz region in this case, but I'm ok with that. Plus I'll use half the power of two sealed.. Uh scratch that, I'll be consuming less than 1/4 the power because it would take more than the difference in power to cool the additional heat in the room.

The PRs are allowing me to tune super low with a large enclosure which drops delay well below the sealed alignment so transient response should be better, not that it would be at all noticeable in these frequencies with the sealed LMS being so good as it is. I could be wrong and I'd just be out some wood and half the cost of the PRs after selling them.

A little OT but I'm also excited to be getting 3 Hypex nCore NC400s for my LCR now that my 7 channel amp gave out one of it's channels recently.
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post #33 of 55 Old 04-29-2013, 11:57 PM
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Let us know how it goes.
Don't forget to take pictures either!wink.gif
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post #34 of 55 Old 04-30-2013, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Sure thing!
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post #35 of 55 Old 04-30-2013, 09:29 AM
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The PR's for a buck each eek.gif I want to shop were you shop biggrin.gif

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #36 of 55 Old 04-30-2013, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep, got the LMS for only $8.50 cool.gif
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post #37 of 55 Old 05-01-2013, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Neverbicker View Post

Yep, got the LMS for only $8.50 cool.gif




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post #38 of 55 Old 05-01-2013, 08:48 PM
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Buck is street for $100.
He was trying to give a hint with his next post of $8.50 which is actually $850.

At least that's my theory.
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post #39 of 55 Old 05-02-2013, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
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I also found a post that the port specs on the enclosures listed on the TC website are way off. I gotta say for this caliber of driver, TC should have gotten these two specs right before publishing.


It's four 4" ports not a 4"x4" port. I'll get that changed, I can see why that is confusing.

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post #40 of 55 Old 05-02-2013, 01:34 AM
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It's four 4" ports not a 4"x4" port. I'll get that changed, I can see why that is confusing.

Ooh, wow. I didn't know you were still around Kyle.

TC Sounds should bring back the 15" ultra. The market is wide open for a king of the hill 15" woofer.
I think everyone agrees the LMS 5400 takes the crown for the 18".

There are some people who would prefer dual 15" sealed than a single 18" driver.
Current TC drivers for 15" are good, but we need something with lower Le. Why were the old drivers discontinued, anyway?
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post #41 of 55 Old 05-02-2013, 09:06 AM
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I have seen Thilo answer the question about the 15" LMS Ultra before. At that time it was explained that the 18" would be the only LMS Ultra since they introduced the LMS-R line which includes 12 and 15" models. A pair of LMS-R 15's performs better than a single LMS Ultra in sims and per a conversation with Thilo he confirmed it. Not sure if anyone has ever compared a dual LMS-R 15" to a single 18" in room though on any of the various forums. I thought about doing just that but the 15's have been out of stock for awhile and PE shows it will be back at the beginning of June.

Any info you can share on the LMS-R vs LMS Kyle?

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post #42 of 55 Old 05-02-2013, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I just compared the Dual LMS-R 15" against the single LMS Ultra 18". The dual 15" has a some more SPL capability in the lower frequencies I need, but it needs a 50% larger box. Above 30 Hz the dual 15s takes off like a rocket but I'd have to EQ that out for flat response anyhow. The LMS is great for getting down low in the smallest box. Essentially dual LMS-R 15s is like one and a half LMS Ultra 18s. Quite a deal. However, the LMS Ultra group delay is quite a bit lower than the LMS-R 15s, so it should have better transients. I think for SQ and low end extension in a small box, the Ultra can't be beat.

I just used a circle jig with a router for the holes and they turned out perfect.

The inner dimensions are 20x20x40". The square lengths is the exact opposite from ideal against internal resonance, so I'm making the internal bracing contain baffles at various angles to block any parallel wall surfaces.

The top drawing is the view from the top (when the box is laying flat), and the bottom drawing is the view from the side.

The yellow is the horizontal bracing, orange is vertical bracing, and red is horizontal length-wise bracing...

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post #43 of 55 Old 05-02-2013, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Neverbicker View Post

I just compared the Dual LMS-R 15" against the single LMS Ultra 18". The dual 15" has a some more SPL capability in the lower frequencies I need, but it needs a 50% larger box. Above 30 Hz the dual 15s takes off like a rocket but I'd have to EQ that out for flat response anyhow. The LMS is great for getting down low in the smallest box. Essentially dual LMS-R 15s is like one and a half LMS Ultra 18s. Quite a deal. However, the LMS Ultra group delay is quite a bit lower than the LMS-R 15s, so it should have better transients.

It should have but does it in actual use?

If box size is not a concern which do you prefer?

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post #44 of 55 Old 05-02-2013, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

I have seen Thilo answer the question about the 15" LMS Ultra before. At that time it was explained that the 18" would be the only LMS Ultra since they introduced the LMS-R line which includes 12 and 15" models. A pair of LMS-R 15's performs better than a single LMS Ultra in sims and per a conversation with Thilo he confirmed it. Not sure if anyone has ever compared a dual LMS-R 15" to a single 18" in room though on any of the various forums. I thought about doing just that but the 15's have been out of stock for awhile and PE shows it will be back at the beginning of June.

Any info you can share on the LMS-R vs LMS Kyle?

Hey Mike!
Only thing I worry about on the LMS-R is the high Le. I'd personally want smaller woofers to play more accurately up top, between 80 and 120Hz. I'm not sure how the Le effects this.
Has anyone compared the old 15" Ultra to the LMS-R?

I have a dumb question. The listed Le is per voice coil? Does that mean when wiring them in series, the Le is doubled?
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post #45 of 55 Old 05-02-2013, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

It should have but does it in actual use?

If box size is not a concern which do you prefer?

It's a trade off. If I were to do it again, I'd stick with the Ultra...

If open baffle is noticeably more articulate than any ported or sealed, then anything that will get closer to that should make a difference. At best, the LMR-Rs have 25% more delay than the Ultra at 50 Hz. That's about half the difference to open baffle, so this difference depends upon how sensitive the listener is to the difference between open baffle and ported, a really good ported though.

Dual LMS-Rs and an Ultra both put out the same SPL in the lower frequencies "for a give box size", the duals maybe have almost another dB. You're getting 50% more low end SPL capability with the duals for the same money, they just need 50% large boxes. The upper end SPL of the duals will stomp on the single Ultra, but that doesn't matter when you're tying to get flat. The extra cost of the Ultra gets faster transients, but another consideration is distortion. The Ultra has to travel more to produce the same SPL as two 15s. So at low to moderate listening levels, the Ultra should sound better, but the 15s should start to catch up toward peak SPL. This is speculative. Keep in mind that the Ultra remains linear through alost all of its full excursion.

Upper frequency accuracy is supposed to be a huge plus for the Ultra. At 90 Hz the dual 15s approach the delay the Ultra. At 200 Hz, the duals actually have 8% less delay. I'm crossing over at 80 Hz or less BTW.
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post #46 of 55 Old 05-02-2013, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

Hey Mike!
Only thing I worry about on the LMS-R is the high Le. I'd personally want smaller woofers to play more accurately up top, between 80 and 120Hz. I'm not sure how the Le effects this.
Has anyone compared the old 15" Ultra to the LMS-R?

I have a dumb question. The listed Le is per voice coil? Does that mean when wiring them in series, the Le is doubled?

Hey Bro!

How are the twins treating you?

The Ultra has an Le of about 2 and the LMS-R has a Le of about 3, not a huge difference to me, not like it's an Axis at about 6.

I am pretty sure the TSP's are with the coils wired in series. I have never really given it much thought if the Le changes with different wiring, not something that I have ever seen asked before but I don't think it changes much if at all.

I do think the LMS Ultra's are just cooler though and a proven killer sub, I miss em wink.gif

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post #47 of 55 Old 05-02-2013, 06:21 PM
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Thanks for the reply Mr. Neverbicker.

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #48 of 55 Old 05-02-2013, 07:48 PM
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Hey Bro!

How are the twins treating you?

The Ultra has an Le of about 2 and the LMS-R has a Le of about 3, not a huge difference to me, not like it's an Axis at about 6.

I am pretty sure the TSP's are with the coils wired in series. I have never really given it much thought if the Le changes with different wiring, not something that I have ever seen asked before but I don't think it changes much if at all.

I do think the LMS Ultra's are just cooler though and a proven killer sub, I miss em wink.gif

The twins are great. Shame I don't have time to really watch many movies.
I still don't have enough amp to power them sufficiently, but that's only because I need to get 20A lines installed first and I believe I have some electrical issues at my house I should probably fix.
I have a hunch something is wrong with my grounding.

Eventually, something like Edogg's setup would be nice. tongue.gif
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post #49 of 55 Old 05-08-2013, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I slightly deviated from the bracing schematic. Now there's no parallel walls. The center vertical bracing baffles are randomly angled to deflect parallel walls in both horizontal directions. The bottom has randomly angled baffles to deflect the top. The top, corners and a few other surfaces will have 2" rockwool. Wall bracing is 2" wide 3/4" thick, center bracing baffles are 3/4" thick.

Front (LMS on left, Passives on right)


Rear (Passive)


Lots of screws.. (front and back outer panels not bonded yet)
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post #50 of 55 Old 05-09-2013, 09:48 AM
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Looking good! smile.gif

That workshop looks massive, I am jealous tongue.gif lol
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post #51 of 55 Old 07-08-2013, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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It's been a while but I've been enjoying this. I've completed the build and it turned out to be more than enough. The output below 25 Hz ridiculous. My room is 2600 cubic feet and when I crank it up, it could literally rip the house apart. Doors and windows don't just rattle, they bang violently, the drywall bangs against the framing, and it's too much pressure on the ears. The neighbors say it shakes their house and there's an empty lot between us.

My goal with this was not for SPL but for SQ and it sounds incredible. I used WinISD Pro to tune down to 14 Hz with a large enclosure to keep group delay as low as possible for fastest transient response. After the build, the actual tuning measures around 13-14 Hz.

I used REW with a calibrated mic to get a flat in-room response with the Behringer FBQ2496. At the same time I also upgraded my LCR amps to the new Ncore NC400's crossed over at 65 Hz. I had a get-together here over the weekend and everyone was completely blown away by how musical and alive it sounds. A few listeners had been into high end all their life and say they never heard anything sound nearly this good. Regarding the NC400 amps, one of the listeners over the weekend plans to sell his favorite $8500 tube amps for these after hearing them.

The home theater has been several years in the making and I'm glad it's finally done and I can just enjoy it. I haven't yet completed the piano black finish on the sub, I did 5 coats of sanding sealer by brush and will do the finishing work next year.

Some things worth mentioning about the build...

Home Depot/Lowes wood putty is not good, it's grainy, very difficult to apply smoothly, and contracts when drying. Rockler's Wunderfil Wood Filler works great. It's easy to work with to fill in the screw holes and low spots, and it says it's only unsafe in California.

A big lesson for me was not to be at all concerned about getting a smooth finish in the wood before applying the sanding sealer. Before applying sanding sealer, I had got it entirely smooth down to 400 grit only to have it become bumpy again after it absorbed water vapor from the air. All that sanding on the bare wood was a complete waste of time.

Subwoofer room placement matters. I spent a day moving the sub around the room while measuring LF sweeps, and got the smoothest in-room response away from the walls and furniture. It seems to need several feet of breathing room all around it in order to do its thing. I ended up placing it about 2.5 feet behind the couch with the passive facing the couch and with the driver and other passive facing away from the couch toward the rear wall about 3.5 feet away (a total of 8 feet behind the couch).

The room is also heavily acoustic treated. The primary reflection points are all covered 2" thick and the entire rear wall is a bass trap.

A little OT... the screen is 150" with Infocus SP8602 projector fed via HTPC. I had been previously using PowerDVD and TMT, but recently tried MPC-HC and the picture was noticeably better with Bluray content. I then used KCP - Kawaii Codec Pack and picture was even better yet and with perfectly smooth playback. I also applied an edge sharpening filter. It's just enough to offset the Bluray compression on the large screen. I've tried so many combinations of solutions and this is the best for me. The sharpness of the picture and the detail in the sound make for quite an experience. As far as sound, the two most impactful thing for me were acoustic treatment and EQ-ing to a flat in-room response. These two things take the sound "out of the room" and into the movie producer's world. I'll never waste the experience of a good movie in a commercial theater again.
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post #52 of 55 Old 07-08-2013, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Neverbicker View Post

It's been a while but I've been enjoying this. I've completed the build and it turned out to be more than enough. The output below 25 Hz ridiculous. My room is 2600 cubic feet and when I crank it up, it could literally rip the house apart. Doors and windows don't just rattle, they bang violently, the drywall bangs against the framing, and it's too much pressure on the ears.

So you are going to build 4 of them now, right? hehe biggrin.gif
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post #53 of 55 Old 07-08-2013, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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lol.. things generally never meet my expectations, so it's nice to have them exceeded for once. Having LFE really brings out the slam.. not something you just hear, but something you experience, scares the crap out of you. About 40 people listened over the weekend and most asked if there was something installed to do this other than just a subwoofer. Thanks for helping me realize this in the planning stages.
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post #54 of 55 Old 07-11-2013, 02:02 PM
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I may have missed it, but what passives did you use, and what weight?

I also missed the pics of the finished piece wink.gif
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post #55 of 55 Old 07-16-2013, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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The passives are by AE Speakers. They don't have as much travel as advertised but they have great compliance. I got the 1600g mms version and added 900 grams each. 2500 total is the max recommendation by AE. I feel as though I would have been just fine with less because as it is they don't move with audible sounds, just with LFE. PSI Audio would also be a great choice for passives. They have more travel but that's off-set by having less compliance, so they model pretty much the same in the end.

I haven't completed the piano black finish, it's treated with sanding sealer at this point because I tested it and enjoy listening too much to do more work on it for now.

The enclosure is pretty much rock solid, around 300 lbs with the driver and passives. It sounds solid like a tree when knocking on it.

Call be strange but I like placing my ear right against it when it's booming. The sound through the cabinet is very quiet, clean and open.. like hearing a concert playing far off in the distance. There's no internal resonances. I hear vibrations and significant echoing in my commercial sub, and my DIY sub just sounds very expensive. I know it's a strange way to describe it, but that's just the impression I get.

I've bumped the crossover up to 80 Hz and prefer it there now. I get a better blend of bass fill into the mid bass, but still without directional sound whatsoever. It's located behind the couch and the sounds can not be pin-pointed as long as sub is a few feet behind the couch. During movies, I notice that deep bass sounds are accompanied with other minute frequencies that cue in where the sound is coming from. It sounds like it's coming from the fronts or surrounds depending on the location of the accompanying frequencies in those speakers. Those accompanying frequencies make the bass seem as though it's moving around the environment on command. For instance, there's a deep bass tune mid way through the movie Dolan's Cadillac (movie sucks) where the bass sounds like it's circling around the environment as the sound editors intended even though bass is coming from just one location. It's noticeable enough that I've gotten comments from people that were confused by how the bass sounds like it's moving around when they know it's not.

I may do the piano finish and post pics later in the season.
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