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post #61 of 72 Old 06-12-2013, 08:07 PM
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I've been perusing this thread from the beginning and for the life of me cannot understand why no one has referenced Hawthorne Audio and their magnificent purpose-built 10" and 15" drivers and associated electronics for OB audio, which can be had on a DIY basis or supplied with baffles built by them. Darrel Hawthorne is probably one of the field's great innovators and his working relationship with Eminence Corp has produced the industry's best OB drivers. If you want bass, HA has that too, in the form of low-frequency bi-amped "augmented" drivers, called Augies, although from my own experience the resonant frequency of it's full-range concentric drivers is sufficient to satisfy all but the most demanding bass freaks in most listening rooms. As an added plus, they have a terrific bunch of people on their forums, as well as a "hall of fame" thread showing some of the speakers built by users of their equipment. Go here: http://hawthorneaudio.us
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post #62 of 72 Old 06-12-2013, 08:36 PM
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WMC1, I think Hawthorne has placed themselves in a very difficult position amongst technical groups like this one by choosing not to provide any measurements. I understand their reasoning for not doing so, but still. One must decide to try Hawthorne based almost exclusively on the rapturous endorsements by people on their forums, and that's a tough sell for this crowd. For folks of a more "subjectivist" (for lack of a better term) leaning, maybe less of an issue.
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post #63 of 72 Old 06-13-2013, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

WMC1, I think Hawthorne has placed themselves in a very difficult position amongst technical groups like this one by choosing not to provide any measurements.
Realistically, they can't, since the room is even more responsible for the result than with other speaker alignments. Half-space anechoic with OB would be irrelevant.

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post #64 of 72 Old 06-13-2013, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Realistically, they can't, since the room is even more responsible for the result than with other speaker alignments. Half-space anechoic with OB would be irrelevant.
Yep, that's what I was referring to when I said I understand their reasons for not doing so. Still makes them a tough sell.
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post #65 of 72 Old 06-13-2013, 10:05 AM
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Yes, I suppose we don't really have an objective measure for "spaciousness," "presence," or even "sound stage," since these are by definition psychological (perceptual) terms. In such cases, it is only reasonable to listen for one's self and judge whether other's "rapturous endorsements" are consistent with one's own level of listening pleasure.
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post #66 of 72 Old 06-13-2013, 10:25 AM
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"spaciousness" is caused by late reflections. ob are good in this respect if you can move them far enough out into the room. this is why some speakers have the rear facing additional tweeter.

"sound stage" is caused by good power response from the speakers.

"presence" is usually related to frequency response in the mid-bass region. if there is a hole there, speakers will lack presense.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #67 of 72 Old 06-13-2013, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WMC1 View Post

Yes, I suppose we don't really have an objective measure for "spaciousness," "presence," or even "sound stage," since these are by definition psychological (perceptual) terms. In such cases, it is only reasonable to listen for one's self and judge whether other's "rapturous endorsements" are consistent with one's own level of listening pleasure.
And that's the issue with OB. Those aforementioned counter-culture types who view OB as a reasonable alternative to the mainstream don't realize that OBs actually require far more work to get right than those mainstream designs. If OB worked all that well you'd find them in recording studios and Foley stages, raw drivers sitting on the package shelf under the rear windows of cars would sound good, and you wouldn't have to resort to what look more like Rube Goldberg contraptions than speakers.

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post #68 of 72 Old 06-13-2013, 03:10 PM
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Bill, it isn't all that hard to move OB speakers around to find their optimal position, and I simply don't know what "Rube Goldberg" contraptions you might be referring to with regard to their design. Most of the best performers are simply mounted on a modest panel and placed 3-4 feet from the nearest reflective/dissipative/absorbant surfaces, sometimes at an angle (toed in). They are not commonly found in studios and Foley stages because those locations are used to record/produce sound(s) that are different from job to job (film to film, for example, or even shot to shot within a film.), and the idea is to insulate the recording as much as possible from external auditory influences--not because OB speakers are inherently inferior to sealed/ported boxes. In fact, the whole idea of "inherent" is thrown into some confusion when OB speakers discussed, because in an important sense the room is the speaker. As for the "counter-culture" comments, to me they are as silly as calling those who like vacuum tube-based equipment "counter-culture types." My initial comments were aimed at the first inquirer of this thread who was asking some general questions about OB, and at the respondents, who gave a variety of answers referring to different products without mentioning what I believe to be one of the best available. To anyone who likes the OB sound and has a listening space suitable to it, I should think that they would be well-served to audition the Hawthorne Audio products. Just sayin.'
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post #69 of 72 Old 06-13-2013, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by WMC1 View Post

I simply don't know what "Rube Goldberg" contraptions you might be referring to with regard to their design.




All that's missing is the mousetrap. rolleyes.gif

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post #70 of 72 Old 06-13-2013, 06:20 PM
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Haha, I thought it was a kid's jungle gym!
The guy obviously has over-thought the issue.
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post #71 of 72 Old 06-15-2013, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input gentlemen. I went ahead and bought some inexpensive driver to build a well estblished, existing design. I will definitely report back with my impressions. I can also take some measurements of them vs. my "traditional" style speakers. The journey is more fun than the destination.....
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post #72 of 72 Old 06-15-2013, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice 
Realistically, they can't, since the room is even more responsible for the result than with other speaker alignments.

How so? As OB has a higher direct/indirect ratio at typical listening positions in an average room,.and excite fewer room modes, I'm failing to see the reasoning behind such a statement.

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