Ep4000 bridged mode question - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
NickThatStands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
How can i find out how many volts the 809 receiver puts out? Im struggling to find it online so far..
NickThatStands is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
NickThatStands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
hmmm, it seems the 809 preouts are supposed to output about 4v but according to a forum conversation with an onkyo rep, they put out about 1v.. wouldnt that mean i would have to have the gain way up on the amp in order to get full power out of the amp? This is going off of what some said about the gain only being used to match the amp to the receiver.. if this is true, then i should need my gain way up to get full power, or as close as possible, from 1volt.. right?

Then i read elsewhere that all of that is nonsense, and the gain IS just like a volume meter.. Dont know what to believe i guess. I do know that turning that gain knob definitly plays a factor in whether or not the amp is clipping. and the sub definitely does work harder when the gain is up, and not as much when the gain is down. Damn, wish one of you audiophile pros lived in central florida, to get me sorted out.
NickThatStands is offline  
post #33 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 08:30 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,387
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 763 Post(s)
Liked: 1178
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickThatStands View Post

How can i find out how many volts the 809 receiver puts out? Im struggling to find it online so far..

It all depends.

It all depends on:

(1) Input signal
(2) Level controls settings for individual speakers
(3) Volume control setting
(4) Gain structure of the AVR.

From the User guide:

Input Sensitivity and Impedance (Unbalance)
200 mV/47 kΩ (LINE)

Rated RCA Output Level and Impedance
200 mV/470 Ω (PRE OUT)

Maximum RCA Output Level and Impedance
4.6 V/470 Ω (PRE OUT)

The gain structure of the AVR appears to be unity gain from line inputs to preamp outputs. This would presumably be obtained with all speaker and main level control set to maximum or zero dB if that is different from maximum.

The gain structure from digital inputs appears to be undisclosed, but one might presume that digital FS creates the same output as 200 mV RMS applied to any of the analog line inputs.

Bottom line is that the preamp outputs of this AVR may not be a good match for use with many power amplifiers. Not enough voltage.
arnyk is offline  
post #34 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
NickThatStands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
so i bought one onkyo receiver and am stuck with it now, because it didnt have pre-outs.. Now i bought the onkyo809, ONLY for the reason to have the pre-outs, and you are telling me that basically the receiver is no good either?

Ive got to say, im on the verge of being a little bit pissed. I let people talk me into DIY over internet direct, thinking "bang for the buck", but im starting to wonder..

To be honest, most of what you wrote, i dont totally understand. But from what im reading elsewhere (so much conflicting information), the receiver sending a voltage that low, would mean i would need the gain way up on the amp.. I have it less than noon right now.. any higher with music, and it clips at volumes that i listened to before installing this sub/amp.

I dont know man.. Im a bit aggrivated. I dont plan on switching receivers. and to be honest im about tapped out on $$$. ill be getting the second sub, as it was in my original budget, but this is starting to get more and more pricey to acheive questionable results.

Thanks for your input. Again, it would be nice to have someone thats into this stuff close by, with meters, and more (and consistant) knowledge then me, to get me along the right track. Unfortunately, its not really something any of my close friends are into. Half of them think im crazy for how much i am into my audio.
NickThatStands is offline  
post #35 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
NickThatStands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
One other thing i will mention that doesnt quite add up to what you are saying.. I am having these issues with the amp for the sub.. I also have a CV1800 running the front left and right. It works perfect. I have the gain all the way up, and ive never touched it. I can max out the volume on the receiver and that amp doesnt clip, with the exception of a few songs that play louder than others.
NickThatStands is offline  
post #36 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 09:19 AM
Member
 
Dezmond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: WNY
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Have you messed with the subwoofer distance settings ? Set it for a farther distance and maybe it will increase the signal voltage. The cv1800 has a 33db gain and the behringer is 34db, so they are pretty close in that regard. I would try the cv amp on the sub and see if it hits any harder,maybe your behringer is buggy,and this would rule that out.
Dezmond is offline  
post #37 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
NickThatStands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
yeah, i know that people have tested the ep4000 and it puts out 650 watts at 4ohms, and the CV is rated for 600 at 4ohms (i cant seem to find where anyone has actually tested this). But i figure ill try it out when i get home. If it really sounds better, then maybe ive got a faulty amp. thatll suck, as ive had the amp for a while now, brand new, just sitting, waiting on the sub to come in. Doubt i can return it.. will have to look into that.
NickThatStands is offline  
post #38 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 10:22 AM
Senior Member
 
benunc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
I run my Dayton 18s and ep4000 from an onkyo 818 which should be similar to your 809. I have gain maxed. Never seen the red clip lights and it gets louder than I can listen.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
benunc is offline  
post #39 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 10:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sibuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Western NY
Posts: 2,251
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 266 Post(s)
Liked: 343
Nick, you are using RCA to TRS adapters correct? you could try going to the RCA-XLR ones to see if it makes any difference
Sibuna is offline  
post #40 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 10:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bhazard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NY
Posts: 2,418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by benunc View Post

I run my Dayton 18s and ep4000 from an onkyo 818 which should be similar to your 809. I have gain maxed. Never seen the red clip lights and it gets louder than I can listen.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

That's a good test. Set the gain to max on the amp, and see what Audyssey puts the sub level at. See how it sounds that way. I don't think your amp is faulty, just gotta figure out where in the chain the problem lies.

If it is the preout voltage being the issue, a minidsp can fix it.
bhazard is offline  
post #41 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 12:01 PM
Senior Member
 
bradthebold88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 421
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 26
If he is clipping the amp, then there is no problem with input voltage is there? The only reason for the amp to clip is because it's outputting full power. If the input voltage wasn't high enough, he wouldn't be able to clip the amp, would he?

Living room: Definitive BP2000TL, CLR3000, BPVX, Quad SI 18" subs
Bedroom: Definitive BP30, CLR2000 Also have had: BP7000SC, BP8B, BP10B, BPX, Dayton 15" HF subs, Rythmik F15
bradthebold88 is offline  
post #42 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 01:08 PM
Member
 
andy497's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Couple of things:

First, you need to clarify clipping the input voltage to the amp versus amp output clipping. In the good news dept., the Onkyo 809 has plenty of pre-out voltage. I have that setup (809 + ep4000, but different subs), and the two match up just fine (rca out from avr into 1/4 inch amp left input works fine as well). I think Josh Ricci has tested the 809 in a thread here, and the output voltage can actually go alarmingly high. (search for that thread). When running my 809 into a dsp1124p, I can made the input signal meter clip (or at least hit the red light, did not actually measure with a voltmeter) with subwoofer output at -10 on the right material. (Skyfall train crash scene at about 0 master volume will do it).

Second, if you're running the ep4000 into a 4-ohm bridged load, I think you should have no problem hitting/exceeding xmax on that woofer. That is a lot of peak watts, assuming your amp is working correctly. Can you watch the sub and see how much excursion you're getting? It's easier if you put a dot of tape or something on the cone (I have a dot of white-out on mine). You need some material with real <20 hz content. I was surprised when setting up my system how hard that can be to find. Some dubstep/etc that I thought would rock had very little content below 40 hz. It gets loud of course, but you don't see the subs move much with that.

Third, "reference" is probably not what you think it is. If you calibrate to reference with audyssey, that means reference when at 0 master volume (pretty darn loud). The first thing people usually say is wow the bass is incredibly quiet under normal circumstances. If you're listening to music at -20 (I think that would be 64 on your onkyo), you're going to basically hear no bass. Most folks calibrate but then run the subs hot, either by turning up gains or upping the pre-outs. (see "house curve")


Re: the ep4000, the setup diagram produces no end of confusion. Is your right gain knob turned all the way down? (should be). Are your speaker wires on the center two poles on the back? (should be). Is your sub in/out of phase with your mains?
andy497 is offline  
post #43 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 01:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mrkazador's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,911
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 272

A SPL meter would really help in this situation to see what kind of SPL you are getting before the clip light turns on.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickThatStands View Post

How can i find out how many volts the 809 receiver puts out? Im struggling to find it online so far..

 

This is not perfect but will give you an idea... Disconnect ALL speakers.

Set sub trim to 0db and Audyssey disabled.

Play a sine wave at 60hz through the receiver and set the master volume at 0. MAKE SURE ALL SPEAKERS ARE DISCONNECTED!

Use a multimeter set at ac voltage and measure the sub output.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickThatStands View Post


Ive got to say, im on the verge of being a little bit pissed. I let people talk me into DIY over internet direct, thinking "bang for the buck", but im starting to wonder..

 

With DIY you have to rely on yourself to do the troubleshooting if something is not working right. For some people that can be a challenge because they don't understand all the little details about the project or have the correct tools.

Mrkazador is online now  
post #44 of 46 Old 05-01-2013, 08:52 PM
Member
 
Philip Frederick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Nick... What type of 1/4 adapter are you using, mono (one ring) or stereo (two rings)? You should be using a mono adapter... If you are using a stereo adapter, maybe that could be causing the problem?

System Info:
Display - Panasonic TC-P55VT50
Receiver - Onkyo TX-NR809
Blu-Ray Player - Pioneer BDP-320
Front - Pioneer SP-FS51LR (with modified pedestal bases)
Center - Pioneer SP-C21
Surround & Surround Back - Pioneer SP-SS41LR (the 'SS' is for custom boxes)
Subwoofer - Eclipse 88100DVC (x2),...
Philip Frederick is offline  
post #45 of 46 Old 05-02-2013, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
NickThatStands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
not sure if they are stereo or mono. I'll check when I get home. Also, i'm not running bridged. I changed that back after talking to several others. I think I simply listen to music at ridiculously loud levels. After a little more tweeking, i'm a little happier, and I think i'm getting it suited for me. I've got it to where the gain is at 10 o'clock, and it doesn't clip till around 78 volume. I think the issue is this.. All channel stereo sends way more bass to the sub, causing the amp to work too hard. That's how I listen to music. For movies, I simply crank the sub up an extra 8DB, and it seems like i've found the safe zone, while also getting desirable results. And I feel that when I get the second driver, as long as I have no unforseen issues, I should be happy. I really appreciate all the input. It's helpful. Sorry for my frustration smile.gif this is a big investment for me, so I just want it right.
NickThatStands is offline  
post #46 of 46 Old 05-02-2013, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
NickThatStands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Damn. That took forever to type on my phone. They put up a firewall at the office. No more avs during the work day frown.gif
NickThatStands is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Tags
Behringer Europower Ep4000 Professional Amplifier
Gear in this thread - Ep4000 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off