Is tc sounds what im looking for or not? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 04-30-2013, 11:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Well for the past few month's i have been looking into building me a couple of 15" sub's to place in my "room". Was first thinking of buying a TC Sounds LMS-Ultra 18" but have been thinking that i

would want to have enough capability so i can get that low 14-16 Hz at 120 or so. not to familiar with building enclosures but have a hell of a drive when it comes to perfection in my line of work so long

story short, I have high expectation's of myself. Room layout is 14' X 14' and 8' ceiling's but it has a closet that's 11' x 2'.


Anyway i got a MTX sw1515. i guess its OK for someone that doesn't know any better but i do. I think!cool.gif Talking about 2 TC Sounds LMS-R 15" and 1 Crown XLS 2500 DriveCore Series Power

Amplifier with a Behringer FBQ2496 Feedback Destroyer Pro. Not sure about box size. 6 cubes may do it? And don't care to be using this amount of output for this little room but it's a project for a new

place and better yet a reason for all the madness. What's some ideas do you guys have? I guess i'm lost guy's.Been working on some plan's and this is all i got so far. 26"x26"x28" but the tune is at

18.9Hz as far as Bass Box Pro 6. That's with one 14.58" X 4.05" port. 18.9Hz F3? That's it?rolleyes.gif I have to be doing something wrong here. Any help would be nice to get this project on the go.
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post #2 of 34 Old 05-01-2013, 01:43 AM
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My room is damn near identical to yours.

Started out with a Definitive Technology Supercube Reference.

Upgraded to a pair of LMS-U's in a sealed application. I actually sold my LMS-U's before I bought my measuring equipment, so I can't tell you if I was close to 120db at 14Hz. I'll leave your specific question to other winISD gurus as I've always been a sealed kind-o-guy.

The LMS-R is a beast, but the recent 18" offerings from Dayton and SI are cheaper and will give you similar output. I understand if you are stuck on going ported and concerned about box size though.

You'd be surprised how many sealed 18's you could fit in your space.

biggrin.gif

 

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post #3 of 34 Old 05-01-2013, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

My room is damn near identical to yours.

Started out with a Definitive Technology Supercube Reference.

Upgraded to a pair of LMS-U's in a sealed application. I actually sold my LMS-U's before I bought my measuring equipment, so I can't tell you if I was close to 120db at 14Hz. I'll leave your specific question to other winISD gurus as I've always been a sealed kind-o-guy.

The LMS-R is a beast, but the recent 18" offerings from Dayton and SI are cheaper and will give you similar output. I understand if you are stuck on going ported and concerned about box size though.

You'd be surprised how many sealed 18's you could fit in your space.

biggrin.gif

Hey Popalock, how did you like that Supercube Reference from Def Tech? I have a buddy that has a pair of them, along with the older Def Tech BP-2000's as his mains. He is thinking about selling both of his Supercube Reference subs in favor of a pair of Dayton UM15's. Do you think that would be a lateral move for him?
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post #4 of 34 Old 05-01-2013, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Hey Popalock, how did you like that Supercube Reference from Def Tech? I have a buddy that has a pair of them, along with the older Def Tech BP-2000's as his mains. He is thinking about selling both of his Supercube Reference subs in favor of a pair of Dayton UM15's. Do you think that would be a lateral move for him?

Read this post...

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434901/northeast-october-20th-gtg-results-thread/0_100#post_22512892

The Supercube Reference is reviewed near the bottom of that post... Look how it stacks up against EVERYTHING else tested.

Yes, it was an eye opener for me as well...

 

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post #5 of 34 Old 05-01-2013, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Hey Popalock, how did you like that Supercube Reference from Def Tech? I have a buddy that has a pair of them, along with the older Def Tech BP-2000's as his mains. He is thinking about selling both of his Supercube Reference subs in favor of a pair of Dayton UM15's. Do you think that would be a lateral move for him?

I have SCRef and it is a plain rubbish for HT. $1900 wasted and went down the drain. The SCRef box is highly unstable coz of no internal bracing and large cut outs of PR and 14" active driver, which offers nothing but resonance. Drops like a brick around 30Hz. Even my alpine DIY crushes it like a worm

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post #6 of 34 Old 05-01-2013, 10:47 AM
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With you being in Hawaii, it sound like NOTHING is going to be cheap to get shipped to you. Let us know what you decide on.

Oh, one other thing to consider. I'm under the impression that TC is going to be refreshing their models soon. It would suck to get a pair of LMS-R's now, only see an updated (more capable) version available in the next few months.

Edited out the thread hijack!

 

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post #7 of 34 Old 05-01-2013, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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OK guys back to the subject please? Is that to harsh?
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post #8 of 34 Old 05-01-2013, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ht-core View Post

OK guys back to the subject please? Is that to harsh?

If you want a forum that runs in a straight course, this one aint it. wink.gif

I have yet to see a thread that hasn't been derailed by the third post. biggrin.gif


That being said, I'd agree with PL on the Dayton/SI route. Worth looking into. They take less power, cost less, and perform pretty admirably. If you're worried about shipping, I'll be heading to Hawaii in October. Think I could get them to pass as carry on? biggrin.gif

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post #9 of 34 Old 05-01-2013, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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No biggie for me but just thought you guys would have taken it a little more serious then the recent reply's. while you guys are sitting happy at home listening you your nice setup and continent with your self's. i on the other hand am not. with a 15" that might as well be a mid bass driver and not much more... Just sick of it. no smile on my face. Just plain sick of it!mad.gif
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post #10 of 34 Old 05-01-2013, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ht-core View Post

No biggie for me but just thought you guys would have taken it a little more serious then the recent reply's. while you guys are sitting happy at home listening you your nice setup and continent with your self's. i on the other hand am not. with a 15" that might as well be a mid bass driver and not much more... Just sick of it. no smile on my face. Just plain sick of it!mad.gif

No worries ..... you are headed for bone jarring bass nirvana may it be TC sounds driver or dayton. The later will get the job done very cost effectively. I'm not a big fan of sealed subs. So, would suggest to look into ported designs IF size is not the issue. Happy building.

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post #11 of 34 Old 05-01-2013, 11:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I would like clean,deep,articulate bass. I guess it's the all time quest for perfection. just seeing if flat response to 16 Hz is possible without a 900lb gorilla in the corner of the room.
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post #12 of 34 Old 05-01-2013, 11:22 PM
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If you are looking for perfection, then I would (and am) be going the LMS Ultra. I have assembled mine yet, but I do own two of the Pro 5100s, and I am very happy with the sound quality of those.

If you want to get down to the frequencies you are talking, with the SPL you want, I am not so sure you can do it without the "gorilla" size cabinet. Sealed will always be a size over frequency compromise.

I will be aiming for something in the region of 500 liters for mine, when construction starts shortly.

Edit:

I should add the caveat without the right size port to go with it (and it is big), you might be better off going sealed or PR.
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post #13 of 34 Old 05-02-2013, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ht-core View Post

Well for the past few month's i have been looking into building me a couple of 15" sub's to place in my "room". Was first thinking of buying a TC Sounds LMS-Ultra 18" but have been thinking that i would want to have enough capability so i can get that low 14-16 Hz at 120 or so not to familiar with building enclosures but have a hell of a drive when it comes to perfection in my line of work so long story short, I have high expectations of myself. Room layout is 14' X 14' and 8' ceiling's but it has a closet that's 11' x 2'.

Ok, let's do some simplistic math really quick.

You've stated your goal of 120db at 14-16Hz.

I'm assuming you've paid Data-Bass a visit and have seen the ground plane measurements for the various systems that have been tested. I'm going to break this out with the general assumption that you can expect add 6db on top of the ground plane measurements for room gain. I'm also going to use the general rule of thumb that when you double the displacement you gain +3db and when you double the amplification you add +3db.

On to the math.

LMS-U Sealed alignment CEA Max burst @ 16Hz
1 LMS-U = 104db + 6db room gain = 110db
2 LMS-U + double power + room gain = 116db
4 LMS-U + double power + room gain = 122db

Adjust down a few db for results @ 14Hz and that would get you close to your 120db goal. Of course this is a very simplistic breakdown of the results one could expect, but should give a good ball park.

With that said, those results are indeed for the LMS-U, NOT the LMS-R. The only way I see LMS-R's getting you to your stated goals would be in an LLT or if you horn loaded them like the LMS-R loaded DTS-10 kit tested on data-bass. I hear that's a very large box though. I will defer to others with more experience on ported designs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

No worries ..... you are headed for bone jarring bass nirvana may it be TC sounds driver or dayton. The later will get the job done very cost effectively. I'm not a big fan of sealed subs. So, would suggest to look into ported designs IF size is not the issue. Happy building.

I think you might find this to be an interesting read:

KC Blind Subwoofer Shootout

The goal of this shootout was to see if people could actually distinguish the difference between sealed, ported and horn loaded subs. Very very good read for individuals with a particular design bias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ht-core View Post

I would like clean,deep,articulate bass. I guess it's the all time quest for perfection. just seeing if flat response to 16 Hz is possible without a 900lb gorilla in the corner of the room.

Again, I had dual sealed LMS-U's in a similar sized space (which was open to the rest of the basement) and it sounded phenomenal. If you don't want a 900lb gorilla (LLT) in your space, I am anticipating it would take more subs to reach your goal 120db @ 14-16Hz goal.
MemX likes this.

 

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post #14 of 34 Old 05-02-2013, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I was thinking the same thing about the new model's that may be coming out. They still have not released there "new" prefabricated sub's yet. just don't want it to be

like the audio pulse deal where there was better quality then, there is now from what i have seen. Not personally, but word of mouth. i think that 1 18" would be a nice choice.I

did always want a 18" or two. shipping not a problem. im used to paying up the ass for this kind of stuff. i think it was $60 shipping for the tc epic 10" that I have in the same

box it came in for months now and never built anything for it yet. working on that with a friend and he will review my dimensions before the build. still looks like i don't know

what i'm doing. Capture.PNG 228k .PNG file
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post #15 of 34 Old 05-03-2013, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I think you might find this to be an interesting read:

KC Blind Subwoofer Shootout

The goal of this shootout was to see if people could actually distinguish the difference between sealed, ported and horn loaded subs. Very very good read for individuals with a particular design bias.
Thanks very much for this link, that's an interesting shootout test!

Puts to bed the thoughts that certain designs always exhibit certain characteristics smile.gif
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post #16 of 34 Old 05-04-2013, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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anyone get a chance to check out that audio graph that i put there on my last post?
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post #17 of 34 Old 05-04-2013, 09:12 PM
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based on the size and construction of your room, you will get some boost in the lower frequencies from pressure vessel gain. in a typical home room that starts to kick in around 25-30hz or so. no need to try to get it perfectly flat in the model unless you will be running your sub in a commercial theater sized room.

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post #18 of 34 Old 05-06-2013, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Well you guy's twisted my arm on this one. It looks like its going to be a LMS-Ultra.
just ordered a Behringer FBQ2496 Feedback Destroyer Pro, Monster HDP 1800 8-Outlet Power Center with Stage 2 Clean Power and a few things for a av rack.
what kind of amp should i be looking for? I remember something I seen about a db increase of 3 db's or so? I'm not rich but what's my choices?
I was looking at some review's about clone amp's but was looking at the Crown XLS 2500 DriveCore Series Power Amplifier.
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post #19 of 34 Old 05-07-2013, 10:26 AM
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One bridged XLS2500 into 4 should be enough to get some decent excursion out of the Ultra. At least in theory, I've never used the DriveCore before.
I wait measurements. biggrin.gif
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post #20 of 34 Old 05-08-2013, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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What would be a good amp for under $2000 that would do a killer job?
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post #21 of 34 Old 05-08-2013, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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ok just seen this thread and it threw me off a bit.
The LMS reaches xmax at 5hz in a 2.5cu ft box and 4000w (actual reactive peak is ~3500w).
The Pi18 reaches xmax at 5hz in a 3 cu ft box with 2400w (actual reactive peak is ~2200w).
The Q18 reaches xmax at 5hz in a 4 cu ft box with 2000w (actual reactive peak is ~1800w)

was just looking at options. i would like the smaller box but the rms and power that it can handle per box size throws me off.

any good threads you guys could point out. thanks!
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post #22 of 34 Old 05-08-2013, 11:00 PM
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"was just looking at options. i would like the smaller box but the rms and power that it can handle per box size throws me off."

what is throwing you off?

small enclosures have more air spring resistance than large enclosures so more power is required to get the driver to overcome the resistance.

that can be used as a protective measure if done right.

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post #23 of 34 Old 05-08-2013, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
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What would be a good amp for under $2000 that would do a killer job?

Cerwin Vega CV5000
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post #24 of 34 Old 05-09-2013, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Cerwin Vega CV-5000, It's got good reviews so far. I'm a little way's away from $800, so it gives me time to get used to the Behringer FBQ2496 Feedback Destroyer Pro I got

coming in the next few days. Well that and a TC Sounds LMS-Ultra 5400 at $1182.33 shipped rolleyes.gif
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post #25 of 34 Old 05-09-2013, 10:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry LDT02, did not see the message some how. I understand what you mean. I got some time to get a good box setup figured out. Reading some spec's on the FBQ-2496 eq. Parametric to only 20 Hz+ ,damn I feel ripped off. I guess it's my bad for not looking at freq spec's"10Hz-44Khz and knowing that there not freq response in parametric range for 10 Hz. "20Hz-20Khz. SOB! mad.gif I hate when this happens. Would anyone think that I would be able to hear the difference compared to a flat room response to 14-15Hz. Is the human ear still only hearing 20Hz-20Khz? please bare with me on this one guys. It's my first Real Subwoofer Build. I know there is still a lot to learn in this field for me. Anyone think ill hear a difference with my http://www.mtx.com/_mtx+residential+mtx+audio+sw1515+15+powered+subwoofer_no-sw1515_626/b ? Thanks guy's! I appreciate all your help!
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post #26 of 34 Old 05-09-2013, 11:09 PM
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"20Hz-20Khz. SOB!"

again, you probably won't need eq centers below 20hz because of room gain. don't worry about it.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #27 of 34 Old 05-10-2013, 12:50 AM
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Here's Nicki Minaj thumpin' on the Ultra's. The best thing about the Ultra is it's lack of distortion.
Four of these subs is more than what most people would be willing to tolerate, but we aren't most-people now are we? LOL biggrin.gif



The Ultra is gonna murder the MTX SW1515. Whole nother LEVEL. wink.gif
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post #28 of 34 Old 05-10-2013, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't wait for a new upgrade. It's going to open a new world for me. Just got the rack in. 12u and for $85 shipped I could not resist. I told my dad about that CV-5000 and the first thing out his mouth was 40 amps. I don't think he knows what's about to happen. eek.gif It's so funny to me. biggrin.gif like the calm before the storm... tongue.gif
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post #29 of 34 Old 05-10-2013, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
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This is what I got with a 26x26x28 and a 22x22x24
Any ideas of a better box?
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post #30 of 34 Old 05-11-2013, 02:11 AM
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how about a form factor like the guy on the right?

that is a jtr captivator btw, quite similar to what you want i believe. yours would be tuned slightly lower. for what you describe, a 15hz tuning would be good.

it would be close, but i think that driver in 7 cubic feet tuned to 15hz could take the full 5000 watts, but i'm not sure.


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