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Martycool007's Avatar Martycool007
08:30 AM Liked: 174
post #91 of 129
05-04-2013 | Posts: 3,692
Joined: Jun 2011
Although I do not have very much experience with different pro-amps, I absolutely love me Behringer EP1,500's that I use to power my LCR's. I keep one in stereo for my Left and Right speakers, and the other one I use to power my center channel speaker. I have personally owned both Onkyo amps, Sony amps, and some lower powered NAD amps and I honestly like my Behringers more. I have tried doing a level matched comparison between these different amps, but, to be up front and honest, I am not sure if I did the level matching correctly.....anyway, good discussion.....!
Dezmond's Avatar Dezmond
09:57 AM Liked: 12
post #92 of 129
05-04-2013 | Posts: 168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

You miss my point, a tube amp is a simple way of getting something that distorts differently than a normal SS amp therefore you can easily tell(hopefully) if the way an amp distorts really has an impact on the sound of a speaker for better or worse.

I read somewhere that a SS amp can be designed to distort similarly to a tube...

Also, i found in my research that the even harmonic distortion is considered to be more pleasing to our brains and therefore a tube amp clipping will sound better than a SS amp clipping as they tend to clip with odd order harmonics....

The op asked about "pro" amps, why not float your tube fanboy boat elswhere.
JohnDean's Avatar JohnDean
11:29 AM Liked: 62
post #93 of 129
05-04-2013 | Posts: 568
Joined: Jul 2012
If I can ever stay home from work travel long enough to finish my subs, SEOS and a couple Crown XLS Drivecores are in line next for me. That's unless I can get some first hand experience against it with a SEOS design.
MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater
01:57 PM Liked: 543
post #94 of 129
05-04-2013 | Posts: 14,900
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speakers will have much more distortion than any amp so you can not tell the difference by distortion.
LTD02's Avatar LTD02
09:37 PM Liked: 1220
post #95 of 129
05-04-2013 | Posts: 16,994
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there are different types of distortion. crossover distortion could be one difference that is distortion-based and is audible through speakers.
arnyk's Avatar arnyk
05:46 AM Liked: 1205
post #96 of 129
05-05-2013 | Posts: 14,530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

there are different types of distortion. crossover distortion could be one difference that is distortion-based and is audible through speakers.

It is very unlikely that you will find a good modern power amp with audible crossover distortion.

I suspect that aside from differences due to badly run listening tests or expectation, amplifier source impedance is the most commonly heard difference because it affects all listening levels.

I suspect that there are a lot of people who only ever use a tiny fraction of the amplifier power that they have in their systems.
A9X-308's Avatar A9X-308
05:41 PM Liked: 130
post #97 of 129
05-05-2013 | Posts: 5,539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Tubed amps are often built using push-pull circuitry and push-pull circuits inherently cancel out even order nonlinear distortion. So much for any rule connecting even order distortion to tubes!
With all due respect Arny, because tubes seldom closely match in transfer function, the even order distortion in a PP amp seldom cancels more than 20dB or so. Having built and measured at least a hundred the following spectrum is not atypical. Oops, can't link directly, but it's the last pic on the page and the schematic is two above. I've built this actual amp, as well as the PP2C and my results were not dissimilar.
DS-21's Avatar DS-21
06:49 AM Liked: 270
post #98 of 129
05-06-2013 | Posts: 3,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

IPR1600 gets some pretty good reviews for full range. Check out the review in the amplifier measurements thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zora View Post

Carvin's new DCM-X series seems interesting.

I've used Carvin's, *** Crest Prolite, and others for HT/Stereo speakers and can say that I really can't tell the difference between them and my "audiophile" amps.

Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

***But, if I were dabbling into the pro amp market these days, with an eye on dsp, I'd look seriously into what Crest is offering. Their new pro-lite series (whatever it's called) looks like the goods. Yeah, it's not US built like their good stuff, but their cred is solid, and if it says Crest, I'd bet it would pass the test. The real question would be their -3dB point.

The Peavey IPR/Crest ProLite would not be my first choice for driving mains. The reason is their highish output (source) impedance. I really like the ProLite 2.0 as a sub amp, though: much better looking than the IPR, no insane blue lasershow, more sturdy feel, quieter fan even stock (replacing it with a Noctua or similar is still a worthwhile endeavor if the amp is in the listening room), not significantly more expensive.

Then again, for people who want that "tube sound" coloration the IPR/ProLite may be ideal, because "tube sound" is mostly due to the output impedance. Only unlike a tube amp the ProLite is cheap, efficient, and doesn't require fiddling with biases, etc.

Then again, with the DSP version (which I've not tried) presumably one could take a listening-position measurement with an AB amp, take a listening-position measurement with the ProLite DSP, and apply filters to compensate for the source impedance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Why so much amp to run your mains? Seems a tad rediculous. Couldn't you get by with a couple hundred watts? Maybe something non-PA with unbalanced inputs, low noise floor, no fan, 12V trigger, etc. Would probably perform better.

Agreed. Also, especially in the context of multichannel music or HT systems, a stack of pro-amps generally takes up lots of space. A 5-7 channel "home" amp is usually more compact. There are exceptions, such as the 1-RU, 8-channel Crown CT8150 (also offered in a Lexicon variant, for about the same price), and the 2-RU, 8-channel amps from Ashly and ElectroVoice. (The LexiCrown and EV also have 12V triggers onboard.)

That said, the amp that has intrigued me for a while as a mains amp is the Ashly PEMA8250.

Yes, it's expensive. But it's an 8-channel Class D amp, and even if the source impedance of the Class D modules is ordinarily unacceptable, it has a DSP to fix any FR problems caused by high source impedance. Also has both RCA and balanced inputs, US made, and their logo looks a lot like Citroën's. smile.gif

The main reasons I haven't bought one are no 12V trigger, and nonremoveable rack ears. As it were, having to bend the one of the inner rack-ears on my new multikilobuck ElectroVoice CPS8.5 sub amp* to fit it my audio cabinet - bays, sadly, don't fit a standard 19" rack component) was harrowing enough.

*No, haven't yet tried the EV with mains. Do plan at some point to do listening-position measurements comparing a number of Class D amps I have on hand (the ProLite and CPS 8.5, an old Panny XR55, a Hypex UCD-based amp, and one whose chipset is unknown to me) to a class AB amp of known flawless performance (ATI AT2007).
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I just hooked up one of Jonathan's amps he let me borrow, the Crown xls 802. I've been listening for the last 30 minutes or so every once in awhile cranking it up pretty loud. I swear I can tell a difference but I'm not going to believe myself until I can do it blind.

There is some hiss which is very noticeable from a couple feet from the speakers. From my LP you can just barely hear the hiss if you have no signal and you are really listening for it. Still... I think that would bug me over time. The hiss is the same volume no matter what the master volume is set at.

Self-noise is definitely one area where otherwise competently-designed amps differ.
stormwind13's Avatar stormwind13
07:23 AM Liked: 69
post #99 of 129
05-06-2013 | Posts: 909
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if you want tube sound, a lot of carver amps emulate it.
DS-21's Avatar DS-21
06:17 AM Liked: 270
post #100 of 129
05-07-2013 | Posts: 3,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

if you want tube sound, a lot of carver amps emulate it.

Basically, by adding a resistor at the end to get the source impedance up high.

"Tube sound" is mostly "FR manipulation caused by the amp's output impedance."
nater1's Avatar nater1
09:34 AM Liked: 16
post #101 of 129
05-07-2013 | Posts: 106
Joined: Dec 2012
Any thoughts on using the crown xti 2002 for my mains? I can get a pretty decent deal on them. It's that or the xls drivecores...
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83
06:41 PM Liked: 452
post #102 of 129
05-10-2013 | Posts: 3,634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nater1 View Post

Any thoughts on using the crown xti 2002 for my mains? I can get a pretty decent deal on them. It's that or the xls drivecores...

I'm sure that would work quite well. They are a bit pricey even including the DSP but seem like solid amps if you don't need the <20hz which would be fine for mains.

BTW who has the best deals on new crown amps?

First test amp in the house - Crown XLS2000. biggrin.gif We just got home from vaca a few hours ago. I had to power up the amp real quick to make sure it's cool - testing to follow tomorrow. biggrin.gif
autox320's Avatar autox320
09:10 PM Liked: 38
post #103 of 129
05-10-2013 | Posts: 483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I'm sure that would work quite well. They are a bit pricey even including the DSP but seem like solid amps if you don't need the <20hz which would be fine for mains.

BTW who has the best deals on new crown amps?

First test amp in the house - Crown XLS2000. biggrin.gif We just got home from vaca a few hours ago. I had to power up the amp real quick to make sure it's cool - testing to follow tomorrow. biggrin.gif

So when's the dance club grand opening biggrin.gif . I get that comment a few times at home the way some people view things.
SXRDork's Avatar SXRDork
09:52 PM Liked: 28
post #104 of 129
05-10-2013 | Posts: 123
Joined: Feb 2007
PE is running specials on all Crowns ATM. Other than that, I have not seen any deals online. I've been searching for good deals on used Drivecores on CL.
stormwind13's Avatar stormwind13
11:11 PM Liked: 69
post #105 of 129
05-10-2013 | Posts: 909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SXRDork View Post

PE is running specials on all Crowns ATM. Other than that, I have not seen any deals online. I've been searching for good deals on used Drivecores on CL.

a couple years ago I got my xls-1500 for 150 bucks at a pawn shop. I've been pretty consistent at searching for deals on them used and I've yet to find one close to that price.
nater1's Avatar nater1
05:29 AM Liked: 16
post #106 of 129
05-11-2013 | Posts: 106
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I have heard that unique squared on eBay will accept lower offers if you place offers on the Amps they have up.
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83
05:41 AM Liked: 452
post #107 of 129
05-11-2013 | Posts: 3,634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

So when's the dance club grand opening biggrin.gif . I get that comment a few times at home the way some people view things.

Haha, let's just say some other member of the household might not be too pleased with the testing going down today. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by nater1 View Post

I have heard that unique squared on eBay will accept lower offers if you place offers on the Amps they have up.

Oh yeah - I've purchased from those guys before and they're great to work with. You can also place offers directly off their website which I've had better luck with. With this crown though, I haven't gotten too far with the offers just yet. I'm best off waiting on something slightly used or open box for the next couple of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

a couple years ago I got my xls-1500 for 150 bucks at a pawn shop. I've been pretty consistent at searching for deals on them used and I've yet to find one close to that price.

Now that's the kind of deal I'm looking for. biggrin.gif I've been scouring CL and ebay daily and will continue to do so. I'd even given thought to running one amp bridged for each L/C/R channel. If I can find more of these 2000's cheap enough I'll give it a try.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SXRDork View Post

PE is running specials on all Crowns ATM. Other than that, I have not seen any deals online. I've been searching for good deals on used Drivecores on CL.

Cool, didn't notice they were running a special. 10% off is decent but at the moment Guitar Center (through musicians friend) has 15% off on everything over 299. Since I'll likely be swapping the gear in the next few months knowing me I'm best off finding some used stuff or open box. I got a great deal on the current XLS2000 open box. tongue.gif
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83
06:39 PM Liked: 452
post #108 of 129
05-11-2013 | Posts: 3,634
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Spent some time playing with and listening to the drivecore (XLS 2000) powering my L and R Yorkville U215's today. I really really like this amp. The noise floor is extremely low and there is no hiss even with the gain/attenuators cranked up. As others have noted the fan noise is non existant. I went through the tracks from the April GTG again today. This thing simply doesn't let up! Loud and extremely clean far beyond crazy levels. A significant improvement over the receiver at volumes over reference. I'd like to give it a try with my SEOS 15's as well. Highly reccomended. Although not needed or neccessary, I'd like to find another matching used or open box amp for my center and possibly surrounds as well. Looking forward to adding this guy to the list of amps to compare when we get together one of these days.
autox320's Avatar autox320
09:49 PM Liked: 38
post #109 of 129
05-11-2013 | Posts: 483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Spent some time playing with and listening to the drivecore (XLS 2000) powering my L and R Yorkville U215's today. I really really like this amp. The noise floor is extremely low and there is no hiss even with the gain/attenuators cranked up. As others have noted the fan noise is non existant. I went through the tracks from the April GTG again today. This thing simply doesn't let up! Loud and extremely clean far beyond crazy levels. A significant improvement over the receiver at volumes over reference. I'd like to give it a try with my SEOS 15's as well. Highly reccomended. Although not needed or neccessary, I'd like to find another matching used or open box amp for my center and possibly surrounds as well. Looking forward to adding this guy to the list of amps to compare when we get together one of these days.

Hey Gorilla one thing I've been curious on the xls is the input to the power supply. I'm an old school crown fan but that was in the 90s. If you don't mind popping the hood you'll see what I mean. It has to be an ingenious plastic plug making the ground prong go to the case somehow. Was going to purchase a xls1000 during a sale for the garage just to check out the input in person.

I'm sure they scream and quiet but this intrigues me rolleyes.gif I see hot and neutral only. biggrin.gif Would you mind pop the plastic and take a pic?


Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83
09:03 AM Liked: 452
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I've got the amp tucked away in my rack for now but I'm planning on picking up another one to try with my center channel. When I get my hands on it I will snap some pics for you before it's installled. cool.gif
MoFinWiley's Avatar MoFinWiley
10:15 AM Liked: 12
post #111 of 129
05-12-2013 | Posts: 179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

Hey Gorilla one thing I've been curious on the xls is the input to the power supply. I'm an old school crown fan but that was in the 90s. If you don't mind popping the hood you'll see what I mean. It has to be an ingenious plastic plug making the ground prong go to the case somehow. Was going to purchase a xls1000 during a sale for the garage just to check out the input in person.

I'm sure they scream and quiet but this intrigues me rolleyes.gif I see hot and neutral only. biggrin.gif Would you mind pop the plastic and take a pic?


Just judging by the pic, the ground pin of the AC connector is most likely a thru-hole and is soldered to the PCB. You can see the trace that runs straight to the chassis screw
autox320's Avatar autox320
11:45 AM Liked: 38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoFinWiley View Post

Just judging by the pic, the ground pin of the AC connector is most likely a thru-hole and is soldered to the PCB. You can see the trace that runs straight to the chassis screw

I saw the trace, and you are probably exactly right. But never hurts to see with naked eye. I highly doubt the pin goes nowhere, but I've seen weirder things cool.gif
t6902wf's Avatar t6902wf
07:34 AM Liked: 12
post #113 of 129
05-14-2013 | Posts: 1,671
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I am running three Outlaw 200 watt monoblocks across the front and couldn't be happier.
http://outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html

Added bonus
No fan and they run themselves on and off.
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

I saw the trace, and you are probably exactly right. But never hurts to see with naked eye. I highly doubt the pin goes nowhere, but I've seen weirder things cool.gif

I did experiment with adding/removing a cheater plug this past weekend. There was a very slight hum with the gain on full tilt when listening to the speaker up close. This was no longer audible with the cheater plug installed so I would suspect the ground is going somewhere on the board. smile.gif
stormwind13's Avatar stormwind13
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The crown amps will pick up a hum through hdmi, I had to be very careful on my cable routing to avoid that issue.
autox320's Avatar autox320
09:03 AM Liked: 38
post #116 of 129
05-14-2013 | Posts: 483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I did experiment with adding/removing a cheater plug this past weekend. There was a very slight hum with the gain on full tilt when listening to the speaker up close. This was no longer audible with the cheater plug installed so I would suspect the ground is going somewhere on the board. smile.gif

Thanks! Yeah I'd say so. I have to put my ear in the tweeter horn to hear hum. It's only real noticeable if I remove my ground I made on the back of the receiver cool.gif

Awaiting the results of the pro amp GTG thread with Carp. Should be fun to read. I wish an epx4k would enter. But the epx "sound" barely much different than the ep series. Maybe a little more up top freq range, but A B comparo the epx are a tad more "liveliness" in my testing.
bhazard's Avatar bhazard
09:23 AM Liked: 38
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05-14-2013 | Posts: 2,419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

Thanks! Yeah I'd say so. I have to put my ear in the tweeter horn to hear hum. It's only real noticeable if I remove my ground I made on the back of the receiver cool.gif

Awaiting the results of the pro amp GTG thread with Carp. Should be fun to read. I wish an epx4k would enter. But the epx "sound" barely much different than the ep series. Maybe a little more up top freq range, but A B comparo the epx are a tad more "liveliness" in my testing.

The EPX2000 at $199 back in Jan would have been an awesome value 300w+ at 8ohm amp for mains. I like my XPA-5 though. If I didn't already have the Emotiva, I'd run my mains off a good pro amp now to save some $$ after seeing all of this.

Looks like all the EPX line is discontinued as well.
autox320's Avatar autox320
10:05 AM Liked: 38
post #118 of 129
05-14-2013 | Posts: 483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

The EPX2000 at $199 back in Jan would have been an awesome value 300w+ at 8ohm amp for mains. I like my XPA-5 though. If I didn't already have the Emotiva, I'd run my mains off a good pro amp now to save some $$ after seeing all of this.

Looks like all the EPX line is discontinued as well.

Yeah I bought the epx in hopes to beat the new lines. Before all the newer dsp only (or worse for home use the new lines like behringers eurocom). Keep it simple. Not a fan of always having to pull out my laptop. Everything is ip these days and yes i'm in the line of work that deals with IT everyday. It's love hate.

EPX is a great deal and hope to pickup one more epx4000 if they start to discontinue carrying it. EPX is a clone of QSC CX-702 and DCA 2422
popalock's Avatar popalock
03:17 AM Liked: 995
post #119 of 129
05-21-2013 | Posts: 4,120
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Awwwww yeah. Remember Pyle from the Car Audio days...

http://www.sears.com/pyle-pt8000ch-rack-mount-8000-watt-8/p-SPM7246381608?prdNo=48

Looks like we can pick it up from AVS for like $299ish...

http://www.avsforum.com/products/pyle-pt8000ch-rack-mount-8000-watt-8-channel-stereo-mono-amplifier

I saw mention of some "other than pro" amps earlier on, so I thought I'd post it up for the hell of it. Might be worth a look for those of us on the "power is power" bandwagon...
Gorilla83's Avatar Gorilla83
05:36 AM Liked: 452
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05-21-2013 | Posts: 3,634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Awwwww yeah. Remember Pyle from the Car Audio days...

http://www.sears.com/pyle-pt8000ch-rack-mount-8000-watt-8/p-SPM7246381608?prdNo=48

Looks like we can pick it up from AVS for like $299ish...

http://www.avsforum.com/products/pyle-pt8000ch-rack-mount-8000-watt-8-channel-stereo-mono-amplifier

I saw mention of some "other than pro" amps earlier on, so I thought I'd post it up for the hell of it. Might be worth a look for those of us on the "power is power" bandwagon...

Well it's certainly cheap enough. It kind of sucks they don't list 'real' / RMS specs anywhere for the amp. The reviews on amazon are mixed, but they have it for 259.

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