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post #271 of 314 Old 05-31-2013, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"They felt thin, cold, clinical; where the Axioms were more full sounding and warmer."

that is almost certainly a frequency response matter. the crossover is shooting for a 4th order acoustic cross. it applies a 4th order electronic to the sub and 2nd order to the mains. it is expecting that the mains have a natural 2nd order rolloff at the crossover point. the axioms do not. as a result, there was a lot more energy in the upper bass with the axioms than with the td15ms.

Leave it to you to come up with some scientific explanation for what's going on. biggrin.gif
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i have no idea what algorithm audyssey is applying. in my estimation, since you have some skills and measuring gear, you'd be better off with it turned off and manually eq'ing in a smooth frequency resonse with an overall down-sloping tilt.

This certainly might be an option.
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"I've never been a firm believer in things sounding better after break in"

it can take time for your ears to adjust to a new sound. that is probably the more significant part of "break in"

This I can relate to. Going from a distortion producing sub to one without took some time to get used to. Now when I hear cheap subs I cringe.
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What a difference that screen makes. Don't let the OCD detract from what you did, it looks great! What is the first movie going to be?

I won't. It's only an 1/8" difference, but it's enough that I know it's there even if I can't see it. cool.gif
I've been racking my brain trying to think of a good opening movie. I'm certainly open to suggestions. smile.gif
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Theater looks great, would love to hear the SEOS with those subs!

Me too, lol. Can't wait for the first movie.

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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Forgot to ask - what crossover point are you running? That can make an enormous difference as well - each setup I've had has drastically favored different points. My Fusion-15's sounded (and measured) best crossed over from 60-80hz. My yorkvilles sound really great crossed at 120hz - this allowed me to best achieve integration and the smoothest FR.

I agree the screen and whole room look great. smile.gif

I've tried 80, 100, 110 and didn't notice a huge difference. Integration was a little different but that's about it.
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Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

What a beautiful room. All that labor, time, and money was spent well.
My sentiments exactly. I don't know if the CD or driver opened up for the better after 20-30 hours, but it is definitely noticeable.

BT, I don't think I've seen your build thread.

I really didn't bother with a build thread this go around. There are more than enough already out there. smile.gif
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Really nice job on everything Travis, the room does look awesome!

Thank you sir.
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Amazing job! Be proud.

Thanks.

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post #272 of 314 Old 05-31-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Trouble like this is always where a mic and measurement software comes in handy, a quick sweep should point out if there are any obvious problems that can be quickly corrected like an incorrectly wired driver.

This should be part of the finishing process before you fire up anything for a listen, and is the most often skimmed over part. Don't judge the sound of a design or execution until you know if you are actually listening to the intended design. wink.gif #speaknfrmexperience

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post #273 of 314 Old 05-31-2013, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

This should be part of the finishing process before you fire up anything for a listen, and is the most often skimmed over part. Don't judge the sound of a design or execution until you know if you are actually listening to the intended design. wink.gif #speaknfrmexperience

Words to live by. smile.gif

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post #274 of 314 Old 06-12-2013, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I finally got REW up and running. These measurements were taken from the MLP. First set is 1/6 smoothing with Audyssey off and the second with Audyssey on. The part I find really intriguing is the fact that I don't really see much difference in the pre vs post Audyssey measurements. The green and purple is the center, which as you can see has quite a spike over the left and right. Obviously there is a bit of work to do. I might try measuring dead center and see how they come out. The L and R should be closer together, but better than I thought with minimal treatments. It sucks I have no selfish seat. These things throw an awesome image, but it collapses pretty quickly. I find myself sitting on the floor in front of the seats to maintain the imaging. In the left or right seat and everything falls apart. frown.gif Obviously with multi channel it's not as noticeable.




I will say I'm never been a magic amp type of person; but after adding the Outlaw into my system, the harshness decreased by quite a bit. I also have quite a bit of work to do on the subs. I have a noticeable hole at 30 hz at the MLP. I'd love to boost that, but unfortunately the back row happens to have a major spike at 30 hz. I might have to break down and do some major bass trapping on the back wall.

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post #275 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 11:36 AM
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i wonder if the harshness was actually clipping or distortion?

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post #276 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 12:16 PM
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You might need a better amp. as well as an upgrade on all upstream gear. The SEOS kits have very high quality sound with superb detail that will bring out the flaws in a consumer receiver. The defects that you might not notice in regular quality speakers will manifest in the more sensitive and detailed SEOS rigs. I'm sure that your system will sound better with this amp.biggrin.gif $$$ http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108&Itemid=210
Look on the used market for high end amps, preamps and dacs at bargain prices.
However, since this is a home theater system, maybe a receiver upgrade will be good enough.
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post #277 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 12:57 PM
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It looks like audyssey boosted above 3k ~5-8db at places, could that be causing it to sound harsher with it on?

I have wondered if there are any tricks for this such as if acoustic transparent screen knocks down treble if you should run audyssey before screen up. And another is aiming controlled directivity speakers at mlp before running audyssey and then tow in after since off axis will have treble rolled off a bit? I think it would be a nice option for audyssey to be disabled above ~ 300hz as to not affect speaker above the modal range

Room and front stage look really nice by the way. cool.gif
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post #278 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 01:07 PM
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Something is amiss. You should be in audio bliss by this point, especially compared to the Axioms.
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post #279 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 01:13 PM
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Audyssey made it worse!
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post #280 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

It looks like audyssey boosted above 3k ~5-8db at places, could that be causing it to sound harsher with it on?

I have wondered if there are any tricks for this such as if acoustic transparent screen knocks down treble if you should run audyssey before screen up. And another is aiming controlled directivity speakers at mlp before running audyssey and then tow in after since off axis will have treble rolled off a bit? I think it would be a nice option for audyssey to be disabled above ~ 300hz as to not affect speaker above the modal range

Room and front stage look really nice by the way. cool.gif

I have an AT screen EN4K and Audyssey does not do that to my SEOS speakers. I used to have Center Stage XD (not with SEOS) and Audyssey did not do that to my JTR's either.

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post #281 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

i wonder if the harshness was actually clipping or distortion?

Definitely not. The 3009 is no slouch. Considering the fact that these weren't even close to being pushed I'd say it was something else.
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You might need a better amp. as well as an upgrade on all upstream gear. The SEOS kits have very high quality sound with superb detail that will bring out the flaws in a consumer receiver. The defects that you might not notice in regular quality speakers will manifest in the more sensitive and detailed SEOS rigs.
Look on the used market for high end amps, preamps and dacs at bargain prices.
However, since this is a home theater system, maybe a receiver upgrade will be good enough.

I feel I have a pretty "worthy" setup. I'm running an Oppo 103, Onkyo 3009, and Outlaw 7125. While none of these would be considered "audiophile" pieces, they are far from entry level gear. I agree that good speakers can make mediocre music sound poor. This was not a quick conclusion I made. I listened to numerous SACD/DVDA/redbook CD's that I was very familiar with, and they all sounded the same. This is coming from Axioms, which are definitely a very bright and revealing speaker as well.
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It looks like audyssey boosted above 3k ~5-8db at places, could that be causing it to sound harsher with it on?

I had the same thought initially, however they sounded pretty much similar before and after Audyssey.

I have wondered if there are any tricks for this such as if acoustic transparent screen knocks down treble if you should run audyssey before screen up. And another is aiming controlled directivity speakers at mlp before running audyssey and then tow in after since off axis will have treble rolled off a bit? I think it would be a nice option for audyssey to be disabled above ~ 300hz as to not affect speaker above the modal range

Room and front stage look really nice by the way. cool.gif

Thank you. I initially set them up before setting up the screen. I was hoping for the same thing. The screen made no noticeable difference in SQ. As mentioned earlier; the biggest noticeable change came from adding in the Outlaw and recalibrating. The upper harshness decreased by about 50%.
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Something is amiss. You should be in audio bliss by this point, especially compared to the Axioms.

Have you listened to M80's?

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post #282 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Audyssey made it worse!

In some areas I'd agree.

Would you recommend a different measurement angle. I'm running a UMM6. I'm using the 1/3band octave 90 degree calibration file. Should I try a 0 degree? What is the narrow band calibration file for?

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post #283 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Also keep in mind that I have Audyssey calibrating for multiple areas. The MLP might be affected negatively in some areas to improve the response in the back row of seating. You can't have your cake and eat it too. smile.gif

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post #284 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 03:26 PM
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The 0, 45, or 90d cal files won't make that much difference. You could try it, but it'll only affect the top two octaves.
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post #285 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 05:29 PM
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Hmm....

Nothing jumps out as wrong with those graphs taken at the MLP. I would still like to see one measured near field when you get the chance to pull one out from behind the screen. And while at it run a sweep with the woofer disconnected and then the tweeter disconnected just so I can verify the crossover is doing what it is supposed to. Something like the LRC notch to tame woofer breakup could be undone not that it is but it would not be easy to pick up on that with a fullrange FR measurement.

Have you tried listening with audessey turned off yet?
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post #286 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 05:54 PM
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eq should not be used above the schroeder frequency to try to fix room issues.

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post #287 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Hmm....

Nothing jumps out as wrong with those graphs taken at the MLP. I would still like to see one measured near field when you get the chance to pull one out from behind the screen. And while at it run a sweep with the woofer disconnected and then the tweeter disconnected just so I can verify the crossover is doing what it is supposed to. Something like the LRC notch to tame woofer breakup could be undone not that it is but it would not be easy to pick up on that with a fullrange FR measurement.

Have you tried listening with audessey turned off yet?

I have listened with Aud off; and I really didn't notice any difference. I'll drag these out into the room when I get some extra free time and feel like disassembling my screen wall. smile.gif

At the end of the day It really could just boil down to the difference between a dome and CD. I've spent so many years listening to domes, I might have to retrain myself. I am still a little baffled that the harshness improved after adding the Outlaw. I'd blame it on psychosomatics, but it wasn't a subtle difference.

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post #288 of 314 Old 06-13-2013, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I have an AT screen EN4K and Audyssey does not do that to my SEOS speakers. I used to have Center Stage XD (not with SEOS) and Audyssey did not do that to my JTR's either.

I should have put a question behind that sentence, "wondered if there are any tricks for this such as if acoustic transparent screen knocks down treble if you should run audyssey before screen up?" I should have looked up what he used for screen material as well. redface.gif

The audyssey boosting treble was reported by beastaudio as well and has me wondering whats going on.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1448642/ae-td12x-seos12-build/300#post_22957998
I didn't see him post the graphs after that but has me a bit worried as I have a receiver with xt32 I haven't put in my theater yet. Was your response flat before so audyssey didn't boost it or it just didn't change the treble?

I found these results on those screens you used and they look good for acoustic tranparency.

Center Stage XD - Treble was 2 db down at 20 kHz compared to the level at 2 kHz. The black backing added another 1 db loss at 20 kHz. The audio response effect was a relatively smooth loss from 3kHz to 20kHz.

Enlightor 4k - Treble was 2.5 db down at 20 kHz compared to the level at 2 kHz. The black backing added another 1 db loss at 20 kHz. The audio response effect was a relatively smooth loss from 3kHz to 20kHz.

http://www.accucalhd.com/documents/accucal_front_projection_screen_report.pdf

Sorry to derail but audyssey boosting treble 5 - 10db seems excessive to say the least. smile.gif


Getting used to new speakers, change to cd, outlaw amp, recalibration... whatever the cause if it sounds less harsh now and you are digging the speakers rock on!biggrin.gif
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post #289 of 314 Old 06-16-2013, 03:08 PM
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post #290 of 314 Old 07-05-2013, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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We'll I've been absolutely swamped with work and projects lately and haven't had much time at all to tweak with anything. I still need to look into some concerns with the issues discussed earlier, but I finally got a chance to pop in a worthy audio movie and finally open them up.

I watched Total Recall and all I can say is freaking WOW. I made it to about 10 under reference and it was all I cared to take, and they were just singing along with no hint of strain whatsoever. I am continually impressed with the SI's as well. The blend so effortlessly with the front stage and never call attention to themselves. Even running them a few db's hot, they never really stand out, and this is with a less than perfect FR. I'll probably end up continuing to use my QS8's as they keep up just fine and I'm really surprised, but they blend very nicely with the mains. I didn't notice any tonal shift with movies or SACD/DVDA's.

All in all, you'd be very hard pressed to find even close to this level of performance for the price of admission. I think I've invested about 5k into my mains, heights, and sub; and this was using top quality components which you could save some money on by shaving a bit here and there. That also included a pretty hefty bill for heights, which was way overkill. This doesn't include my tool bill, lol; but with Erich's flat packs, that really is an unnecessary expense as well. I'm really surprised more and more people aren't taking advantage of the top notch designs available today.

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post #291 of 314 Old 07-05-2013, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

We'll I've been absolutely swamped with work and projects lately and haven't had much time at all to tweak with anything. I still need to look into some concerns with the issues discussed earlier, but I finally got a chance to pop in a worthy audio movie and finally open them up.

I watched Total Recall and all I can say is freaking WOW. I made it to about 10 under reference and it was all I cared to take, and they were just singing along with no hint of strain whatsoever. I am continually impressed with the SI's as well. The blend so effortlessly with the front stage and never call attention to themselves. Even running them a few db's hot, they never really stand out, and this is with a less than perfect FR. I'll probably end up continuing to use my QS8's as they keep up just fine and I'm really surprised, but they blend very nicely with the mains. I didn't notice any tonal shift with movies or SACD/DVDA's.

All in all, you'd be very hard pressed to find even close to this level of performance for the price of admission. I think I've invested about 5k into my mains, heights, and sub; and this was using top quality components which you could save some money on by shaving a bit here and there. That also included a pretty hefty bill for heights, which was way overkill. This doesn't include my tool bill, lol; but with Erich's flat packs, that really is an unnecessary expense as well. I'm really surprised more and more people aren't taking advantage of the top notch designs available today.

Told ya smile.gif

In my case, there just wasn't a tower design or flat pack available for my desires, otherwise I would have gone with a Zephyr or Sentinel and a flat pack.

I think the AE woofers are just outstanding though. I forgot to turn on my subs today, and I didn't even notice for about a minute. This is just with 200w. If I gave these things 600-750w like it can handle, I'm sure I could hit 120db+ at my listening position with 20hz bass included with relative ease. The final cost of both speakers is less than 1/2 of 1 Noesis speaker. Incredible value.
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post #292 of 314 Old 07-05-2013, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Told ya smile.gif

I forgot to turn on my subs today, and I didn't even notice for about a minute. This is just with 200w.

Well based on my sealed "M" design; I definitely notice when the subs are off, lol. I'm throwing 175 at mine and that's pushing levels of insanity. If I hadn't thrown some less efficient heights at them, they really would have gotten scary loud. As is it, I don't think I'll see reference, ever for a while. biggrin.gif

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post #293 of 314 Old 07-06-2013, 04:27 AM
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BA. Are you saying the heights distort before reference? Not sure what you mean. You make it seem like not being able to go to reference is a good thing. Or are you saying you enjoy them most below reference?

I can push mine past reference and they still sound great. I just don't listen that loud because I don't want to hurt my hearing.

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post #294 of 314 Old 07-06-2013, 07:30 AM
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Bass Addict- I had a feeling that once you fired these up for a good movie that you would be much happier with their sound quality, as opposed to listening to music only! Also, I would love to know more about how they sound for movies?
Being that you are using the BMS-4550's, did you ever consider going with the Seos-15 as opposed to the Seos-12's? I would bet that their is not very much difference between the two, but I do b believe that there will be "some" difference.
I have been patiently awaiting the arrival of the Seos-15's and I plan on using them with the same BMS CD that you used. I already have one of the BMS-4550's and a single Radian 951Pb as well, and I plan on using a Seos-19 with the Radian.
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post #295 of 314 Old 07-06-2013, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

BA. Are you saying the heights distort before reference? Not sure what you mean. You make it seem like not being able to go to reference is a good thing. Or are you saying you enjoy them most below reference?

I can push mine past reference and they still sound great. I just don't listen that loud because I don't want to hurt my hearing.

I probably wasn't very clear. Matt had to pull down the upper frequencies to match the bass response on them. So efficiency suffered. I believe they are about 91 or so db's right now. So in effect, after calibration, the mains are matched to them which means I give up some efficiency there. I wasn't too bothered as my surrounds are also around 91db's. For someone with very large rooms though, the difference between 91 and 97 would be huge.

They will easily play to reference I'm sure, I just have no need to find out........ yet. smile.gif

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Bass Addict- I had a feeling that once you fired these up for a good movie that you would be much happier with their sound quality, as opposed to listening to music only! Also, I would love to know more about how they sound for movies?
Being that you are using the BMS-4550's, did you ever consider going with the Seos-15 as opposed to the Seos-12's? I would bet that their is not very much difference between the two, but I do b believe that there will be "some" difference.
I have been patiently awaiting the arrival of the Seos-15's and I plan on using them with the same BMS CD that you used. I already have one of the BMS-4550's and a single Radian 951Pb as well, and I plan on using a Seos-19 with the Radian.

Music is important to me, hence the concerns I have with them in certain areas. It also manifests during movie playback in vocals, but to a lesser extent. I did consider a SEOS15, but due to my time frame I chose to go with the 12 as they were currently available. I'm sure the 15 would allow you to take advantage of the 4550 more, and in the future I'll probably change out the 12 for a 15. As of right now, I'm content with it, and it gives me an upgrade path. smile.gif

My advice for someone looking to upgrade. I'd start with the subwoofer. I had a very capable sub to begin with, and this new setup is on a whole nother level. Return on investment for that was huge. The main build, while an improvement, was not nearly as drastic.

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post #296 of 314 Old 07-07-2013, 07:05 AM
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I probably wasn't very clear. Matt had to pull down the upper frequencies to match the bass response on them. So efficiency suffered. I believe they are about 91 or so db's right now. So in effect, after calibration, the mains are matched to them which means I give up some efficiency there. I wasn't too bothered as my surrounds are also around 91db's. For someone with very large rooms though, the difference between 91 and 97 would be huge.

They will easily play to reference I'm sure, I just have no need to find out........ yet. smile.gif
Music is important to me, hence the concerns I have with them in certain areas. It also manifests during movie playback in vocals, but to a lesser extent. I did consider a SEOS15, but due to my time frame I chose to go with the 12 as they were currently available. I'm sure the 15 would allow you to take advantage of the 4550 more, and in the future I'll probably change out the 12 for a 15. As of right now, I'm content with it, and it gives me an upgrade path. smile.gif

My advice for someone looking to upgrade. I'd start with the subwoofer. I had a very capable sub to begin with, and this new setup is on a whole nother level. Return on investment for that was huge. The main build, while an improvement, was not nearly as drastic.

You make a good point about upgrading the sub(s) before the LCR's as new/better sub(s) will most likely make a pretty huge difference compared to your mains. I had only a stock MFW-15 that has been powered by an EP4k for a long while now, and I recently purchased some Dayton UM-15's that I am using in duel sealed enclosures, and the difference between the UM-15's and the single MFW-15 has been huge!
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post #297 of 314 Old 07-12-2013, 06:21 PM
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BA -
I just went through your entire thread. What a ride. Really like your theater build, very impressive.

Sorry to hear your initial impression weren't what you hoped. I had the opposite experience with my Klipsch RB-75's. The odd thing is, I still haven't tuned Audessey for these speakers, they're still tuned to the klipsch speakers. Haven't had time do to with a house full of guests etc. I found even with the Klipsch tuning that they provided a much better listening experience, especially for music. I hear more detail.

Are they angled at all? Your room looks narrow and long.

Builds: Maelstrom 21 Ottoman Build, Dual Opposed MFW's x 2, Statements, SEOS-12/TD12M x 5. 
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post #298 of 314 Old 07-12-2013, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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BA -
I just went through your entire thread. What a ride. Really like your theater build, very impressive.

Thank you
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Are they angled at all? Your room looks narrow and long.

They are angled. Not as much as they probably should be, but I didn't want to go to crazy with them due to having 2 rows of seating. My only 2 complaints are the imaging (which can be blamed on my room more than anything, I just thought they would be better due to the waveguide design as opposed to my domes), and the weird harshness at certain frequencies. I really wish I could explain it, but someone would have to listen to them to hear what I'm hearing. It almost sounds like a blown driver to a small extent. Other than that I am really impressed with them, just not as much as I had anticipated; but I've already beat that horse, lol.

The room is definitely longer and narrow. Dimensions are app. 10' 8" x 24'. I have a large rock fireplace that starts in the basement and climbs up another 2 stories. Because of this, I was short on width.

This shot may give a better perspective of the narrow room.

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post #299 of 314 Old 07-13-2013, 05:23 AM
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I can under stand you feeling a little underwhelmed, as it takes a while to get used to having a compression driver in leu of a conventional tweeter, but, they definitely should not sound harsh at all. That part baffles me as I have always heard people say that these Seos speakers have absolutely none of the harshness that is typical for a CD & horn. Have you tried listening to one at a time to see if one of the CD's or diaphragms might be messed up?
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post #300 of 314 Old 07-13-2013, 09:09 AM
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BA -

One of the things that I found interesting and impressed me with these drivers is that I could hear mic changes much more clearly while watching some movies and television content. You can definitely tell when you have poorly programmed content. I think this is most noticeable when watching a news broadcast.

I also built Jim Holtz Statements and these two speakers are completely different. If you continue over time to be unimpressed or it's not the sound you were looking for I'd definitely consider the Statements or Finalists. If the Statements don't impress, then we'll have to put you out to pasture.

http://www.speakerdesignworks.com/Statements.html

http://www.speakerdesignworks.com/Finalists_1.html

I'll be building 5 or 6 Daniels and finishing up two more TD12M's, but will also build a pair of Finalists. But that's some time from now since I have a baby coming in Sept.

Builds: Maelstrom 21 Ottoman Build, Dual Opposed MFW's x 2, Statements, SEOS-12/TD12M x 5. 
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