TD15M - SEOS12 - BMS4550 / theater progress / Dual TD6M - SEOS12 - BMS4550 build. :D - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 314 Old 05-01-2013, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I finally got around to actually cutting some panels in between trying to get the theater finished up for a family get together end of this month.

Here are the details:

Cabs are 17.25" W x 36.5" H x 13" D (not including 2nd baffle). There will be an internal divider bringing the total height down to 31.5". I did this as I preferred a single tower as opposed to putting them on stands. This will also allow me a separate place to mount the xovers. Internal volume should come in at approximately 2.90 cubic feet. This isn't finalized and can be added to or removed depending on how I shift around the divider.

Power will be provided by some form of external amplification. I decided to go with 4 ohm at the last minute to match the dual TD6 height arrangement, so I'm pretty sure the 3009 won't love me if I push the volume when feeding a full wall of 4ohm speakers. I'm leaning towards either a used Parasound Halo or Outlaw Audio for sale. I feel either will provide enough juice to do the deed.

Xover will be provided by none other than Matt. I really can't express enough appreciation to that guy for answering endless questions and taking time out of his day to do the testing and building to make this build a reality. I also want to thank John, Jake, and Erich for being instrumental in the build, buys, and logistics for also making this come together. This is a great family here in the DIY forum.

Before getting on to the build, which isn't very exciting at the moment, lol, here is the current progress on the theater. I snagged Carps other SMS1 so I'm currently in the process of setting up the SI's for a true stereo setup taking advantage of my 3009's dual sub EQ feature.

I apologize in advance for the crappy pics. Too lazy to dig out the DSLR so you get my cheap point and shoot. smile.gif

Screen wall coming together. Finished wrapping the upper and lower panels in GOM. Just need to finish up the side panels. Screen frame is done. I've been waiting to stretch the fabric until I'm done as it's easier to pull the screen on and off without the material. Makes it a one man job as opposed to two.




I said I wouldn't mount the projector on this build (unlike the last one), until it was finished. It's still boxed up. Just finishing up the hushbox and mocking up cutouts for the 2.35 lens.



Little side angle to show columns. The space I had to work with was less than optimal (128" wide), so I wanted to keep the acoustic panels as narrow as possible. I even decided to flush mount the surrounds and rears into them to save as much space as I could.



Lower shot with lighting and trim work.



Oh yeah, the obligatory cab shot. Exciting, isn't it. biggrin.gif

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post #2 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 04:21 AM
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That room is sweet!! Your build is going to be exciting to watch.smile.gif
Good Luck
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post #3 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 05:16 AM
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interesting, what are you planning on tuning the boxes to?
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post #4 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 06:39 AM
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Very nice. I think you're going to love the upgrade!
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post #5 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 06:58 AM
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Interested in this build. I'm guessing you're creating your own baffle?
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post #6 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 08:09 AM
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Are you going to double up the thickness on the baffle?
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post #7 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

That room is sweet!! Your build is going to be exciting to watch.smile.gif
Good Luck
Chris W

Thanks Chris. Not nearly as nice as some of the big dogs, but it's all I had to work with. Everything was done by me and me alone, except for the carpet (and probably the screen stretching).

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Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

interesting, what are you planning on tuning the boxes to?

Boxes will be sealed and crossed over to subs at 80hz.

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Very nice. I think you're going to love the upgrade!

I will be sorely disappointed if I don't get this biggrin.gif


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Interested in this build. I'm guessing you're creating your own baffle?

Yup.

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Are you going to double up the thickness on the baffle?

Yes. Front baffle will be two 3/4" MDF panels.

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post #8 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 10:45 AM
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thats going to be very nice!!!!!!!

youll have a lot of firepower behind that screen cool.gif

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post #9 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 11:41 AM
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Looking forward to seeing your build come together.
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post #10 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 11:47 AM
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post #11 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 12:15 PM
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Nice man, should work out really well. You're in good hands with Matt doing the xover work. cool.gif
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post #12 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Nice man, should work out really well. You're in good hands with Matt doing the xover work. cool.gif

Yup. I must trust him implicitly as OCD as I am. biggrin.gif Seeing what he was able to do with the B&C/360 combo, this should be a home run.

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post #13 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 03:01 PM
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I am just curious as to why a lot of you guys are running these expensive 15" woofers with an 80hz crossover? Isn't this limiting those large woofers in their ability? Couldnt you get a cheaper 10" or 12" driver to cover the same range? (not knocking this, just curious). Those AE drivers are pretty pricey, so why not go with something from the likes of JBL or Dayton? Do those AE woofers really excell that much more than the cheaper drivers from JBL, B&C, Dayton, ect..?
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post #14 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I am just curious as to why a lot of you guys are running these expensive 15" woofers with an 80hz crossover? Isn't this limiting those large woofers in their ability? Couldnt you get a cheaper 10" or 12" driver to cover the same range? (not knocking this, just curious). Those AE drivers are pretty pricey, so why not go with something from the likes of JBL or Dayton? Do those AE woofers really excell that much more than the cheaper drivers from JBL, B&C, Dayton, ect..?

Valid question.

I spoke in depth with John about the TD10, 12, and 15. According to John, the TD15 was the best behaved driver out of the lineup. It also has the ability to play louder, with less distortion. After much research, I believe it was the right choice. I looked heavily at the B&C driver, but with the GB pricing, it really didn't cost a lot more to go with the AE. I also like supporting a USA company.

I'm sure Matt, Tuxedo, and the likes, will give you an in depth breakdown with charts and graphs, so hold tight. biggrin.gif

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post #15 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I am just curious as to why a lot of you guys are running these expensive 15" woofers with an 80hz crossover? Isn't this limiting those large woofers in their ability? Couldnt you get a cheaper 10" or 12" driver to cover the same range? (not knocking this, just curious). Those AE drivers are pretty pricey, so why not go with something from the likes of JBL or Dayton? Do those AE woofers really excell that much more than the cheaper drivers from JBL, B&C, Dayton, ect..?

I'm actually making mine full range capable when called upon with the 12X version. It'll run in double bass most of the time, with 2 SI 18's in the mix. The M versions have less xmax, so it doesn't make sense to dig them down as low.

I would have gone with the 15X, but the width is a bit too much for me, and there wasn't a crossover for it and the SEOS. The GB pricing made it much more enticing to use an AE woofer for about $20 more than a comparable B&C. I think it will have a distinct advantage in SQ, along with more power handling. We'll know soon enough. I have SEOS 15s on pre-order, so maybe one day i'll mimic this build with them.

I'm interested in how the SEOS / TD15M / BMS4550 blend comes together as a whole. Could be epic. Hasn't been done here yet.
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post #16 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 04:01 PM
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Marty,

In order of importance IMO.

Big woofer:

Narrower directivity there's less sidewall reflections lower in frequency.
Higher sensitivity, usually.
Lower distortion.
Can actually play 80hz very easily. I'm big into 8" and 10" designs. It's what I like. But they do struggle to get good output even at 80hz. The 15" has the Sd to do it without issue. This is always a battle with sensitivity.

Small woofer:

Cheaper.
Higher frequency usability (The 15" AE has shown problems above 1khz: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/205875-has-anyone-here-measured-td15m-i-have-them.html).
Smaller cab requierments.
Closer center to center driver spacing.
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post #17 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Well Matt is slaving away building some test enclosures for modeling. Once he finalizes dimensions, I'll start working on these cabs as well. Too many irons in the fire what??? cool.gif

Looking sweet. Why use a .22 when you can use a 50 cal. smile.gif

Notice how much a perfectionist Matt is. Even with the test enclosure all the drivers are lined up perfectly. biggrin.gif


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post #18 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 04:57 PM
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i like how that looks small yet i know its huge
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post #19 of 314 Old 05-02-2013, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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i like how that looks small yet i know its huge

Yup. Especially for a height. cool.gif

Preliminary dimension are 14.5" w x 15.5"h x 7.5" d, 3/4" baffle and 1/2" for the rest.

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post #20 of 314 Old 05-03-2013, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
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Marty,

In order of importance IMO.

Big woofer:

Narrower directivity there's less sidewall reflections lower in frequency.
Higher sensitivity, usually.
Lower distortion.
Can actually play 80hz very easily. I'm big into 8" and 10" designs. It's what I like. But they do struggle to get good output even at 80hz. The 15" has the Sd to do it without issue. This is always a battle with sensitivity.

Small woofer:

Cheaper.
Higher frequency usability (The 15" AE has shown problems above 1khz: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/205875-has-anyone-here-measured-td15m-i-have-them.html).
Smaller cab requierments.
Closer center to center driver spacing.

That makes sence. So with regards to crossover design, I understand that the drivers need to be fairly similar with regards to sensitivity,
otherwise you will have to add other things to the crossover, like say...an Lpad for a tweeter....right?

I just can't seem to wrap my head around the idea that a 15" driver is all that necessary when crossing over at 80hz. I used to own some
store bought speakers back before I got into DIY, and they had 6.5" mids in a 2-way configuration and could reach down to 50hz no problem.
Actualy, I have heard lots of big box speakers that could reach down that low with much smaller drivers.

It just seems like having an expensive 15"
driver is not actually necessary unless you want to run the speakers down to...say....20hz or 30hz. I do understand that using a 15" over say an 8" or
10" is going to have less distortion, but are the distortion differences all that audible?
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post #21 of 314 Old 05-03-2013, 06:36 AM
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The distortion differences likely aren't that audible until you get really cranking on it. Depends on a lot of things too.

The store bought 6.5" woofers that hit 50hz really are going that deep. It's true. But they've given up output and efficiency to extract as much bass as possible. I've got a little TM with a $16 peerless woofer that's 5.25" and it can do 45hz!!! But the speakers finished sensitivity is 81db/w/m. Good for easy listening in the living room.

Bass or efficiency. That is the question.
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post #22 of 314 Old 05-03-2013, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I just can't seem to wrap my head around the idea that a 15" driver is all that necessary when crossing over at 80hz. I used to own some
store bought speakers back before I got into DIY, and they had 6.5" mids in a 2-way configuration and could reach down to 50hz no problem.
Actualy, I have heard lots of big box speakers that could reach down that low with much smaller drivers.

It just seems like having an expensive 15"
driver is not actually necessary unless you want to run the speakers down to...say....20hz or 30hz. I do understand that using a 15" over say an 8" or
10" is going to have less distortion, but are the distortion differences all that audible?
There are output advantages above the XO too. One 15" woofer should have close to the same output as 2 identical 12" woofers.
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post #23 of 314 Old 05-04-2013, 07:47 AM
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I am looking forward to hearing the OP's subjective listening impressions of these babies! I am considering picking up some of the BMS-4550's to use on the Seos-15's.

I already have a Radian 951PB that I plan on pairing with a Seos-18. I will likely use that as my center channel, (unless I find more Radian 951PB's
on the used market for cheaper than the MSRP), then use the BMS-4550/Seos-15 combo's on my Left and Right channels.

I can't help but wonder if the BMS-4550 with a Seos-15 would be that much of a step up from a DNA-360 on a Seos-15.
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post #24 of 314 Old 05-04-2013, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
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I am looking forward to hearing the OP's subjective listening impressions of these babies! I am considering picking up some of the BMS-4550's to use on the Seos-15's.

I can't help but wonder if the BMS-4550 with a Seos-15 would be that much of a step up from a DNA-360 on a Seos-15.
There may never be a definitive answer to that question only opinions. Now that more of us have the 4550s in hand test and measurements can be conducted so more info will be available on the 4550s.
You will get more out of both CDs by using the Seos 15 over the 12. I am sure of that.smile.gif
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post #25 of 314 Old 05-04-2013, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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You will get more out of both CDs by using the Seos 15 over the 12. I am sure of that.smile.gif
Chris W

I'm not. It's been argued the other way that the improvements of the 15 over the 12 would be very slight. Of course this is all subjective without some extensive testing.

On a side note, I've been going through all my Hi res collection with my Axioms to try and burn as much listening impressions into my brain as possible. I will have my M80's to play along side the AE's as well, so I could switch back and forth. I'm not sure if I will do any actual measurements with the Axioms, but I guess I could seeing as I'll have all the gear out to measure the AE's.

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post #26 of 314 Old 05-04-2013, 08:44 AM
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I bet the difference will be more than obvious. Words like BIG , OPEN and DYNAMIC will be floating in your head wink.gif

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post #27 of 314 Old 05-04-2013, 08:55 AM
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I was basing that off the discussion of the Seos 12 not being deep enough at 3.5" vs the 15 being almost 5" deep and can be crossed over a little lower .It is also 25% larger overall so that should count for something like a wider sweet spot. Either way I bought 4 Seos 12s and if the Seos 15 would prove to be a difference I can simply rebuild.smile.gif
IMO the LP is all that matters.smile.gif
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post #28 of 314 Old 05-04-2013, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I was basing that off the discussion of the Seos 12 not being deep enough at 3.5" vs the 15 being almost 5" deep and can be crossed over a little lower .It is also 25% larger overall so that should count for something like a wider sweet spot. Either way I bought 4 Seos 12s and if the Seos 15 would prove to be a difference I can simply rebuild.smile.gif
IMO the LP is all that matters.smile.gif
Chris W

I agree with all those points. My room is fairly small (only 128" wide), and other than a slightly higher xover point on the 12, I don't feel the 15 would give me an appreciable difference in SQ. If my room was 15' wide, then I could see some advantages there.

I'm with you though. If the 15 does sound like it will be a step up, I'll merely redesign the speaker down the road when my next bout of upgradeitis sets in. biggrin.gif

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post #29 of 314 Old 05-05-2013, 05:30 AM
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This is America, bigger is always better, isn't it?!? I am pumped that the plastic SEOS 15's are coming as I wanted to build the least compromise L&R for music. I have the 4550's and TD15M's are almost complete. I also have the mini dsp on order so I just need a waveguide. It is fun watching all of these builds happening and all of the knowledge and insight sharing going on. Great community here.
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post #30 of 314 Old 05-05-2013, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
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I'm with you though. If the 15 does sound like it will be a step up, I'll merely redesign the speaker down the road when my next bout of upgradeitis sets in. biggrin.gif
That is another significant advantage to buying an AE woofer, I am using it in this build, the next one, & probably the one after that. My TD12Ms weigh at least 25lbs a piece and are built to last forever.
As future designs become available it will be nice to just rearrange the pieces and create a whole new speaker. I heard back from mtg90 & will be designing a XO for my 4550/TD12 in the near future.
This DIY stuff keeps getting Sweeter!!cool.gif
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